Embracing Values-Driven Entrepreneurship with Kathryn Latham of Rogue Women’s Fund

Kim Allchurch Flick: Welcome everyone. It’s December, 2025, and I’m Kim Alrich Flick. I am very excited to be here today with Catherine Latham, someone who I met online through meetings and at breakout rooms, and our conversations seemed to just continue. In wonderful ways. So I’m happy to have Kathryn Latham here on the podcast.

Kathryn, welcome. Thank you so much, Kim. Absolutely delighted to be here. I’m happy you’re here as well. So how are you today and what would you like to share about your journey and your work here on the podcast? 

Kathryn Latham: I’m great today. I am on the East coast at the moment in New England with my family.

It’s snowing. The view from my office here looks out on our horse farm and that’s just, so much joy outside my windows. A bit about my journey that brought me here to this moment, both. And thinking through how I work I’ve had a career that’s been all over the place. I started off as a structural engineer led bridge projects with a structural engineering nonprofit on three continents, which is some of the most, remains, some of the most rewarding and exciting work of my career so far.

Then from there, I came back to the us. Was really struggling to find the same level of excitement that I felt in working with scrappy teams, under really challenging conditions to build bridges in communities that truly needed them with those communities. For us engineering firms like designing a new highway bridge just wasn’t doing it for me in the same way.

So I found myself seeking, well, what feels exciting? And I ended up at a very different type of company, a early stage software social media marketing startup in the early days of building software for that type of marketing. What surprised me is I loved helping businesses grow and I loved the kinda the chaos that comes in that entrepreneurial environment.

All hands on deck, opportunities to try new roles, build new roles for yourself. That I stayed there for about three years and frankly from a place of, it’s hard to turn down a much bigger paycheck. Ended up at companies like Yahoo and Verizon doing, platform optimization. And that means helping those companies clients get the most out of their ad tech platforms and make more money.

That was really soul sucking work. I went in. I joined Yahoo at the tail end of it, kind of being a really big startup. Even though it was public at that time, it still had that startup atmosphere. Anything’s possible. You have a crazy idea about how to make the planet better and how Yahoo can help will at least tear you out.

Quickly became very jaded, realizing that in particularly in publicly traded settings, the only thing that matters, and the only thing is does this drive revenue this quarter? And I quickly realized there are very few opportunities to attach that to my values in a way that, would move the needle forward for the company compared to like a big sales conversation.

And I say that because I was always the person like, well, can we do this? Can we do this? Ask? But when the CEO would visit our little office in Portland, I’d ask challenging questions, and then just felt, again jaded. Like there was no path forward for me there that felt good. And so I took some time off at the beginning of 2021.

I just looked forward at my life and thought, this can’t be it. This cannot be, it was a very dominating role. Was very fortunate to have support of family. From an emotional standpoint, my dad left a corporate law career to teach at Vermont Law School, which might be the most like hippie values focused law school on the planet.

And, made a big lifestyle change for our whole family to accommodate that. And

wow. 

He was really encouraging. I wish I’d done it sooner and all of my colleagues. Were envious that they weren’t able to make a similar jump because of the lifestyles they’d built. So I went for it and at the time I really thought, I’ll find the dream job.

That’s what I’m gonna do. I’ll take some time off and I’ll go back and find another corporate job that’s values aligned. But during that time, I started freelancing and. I, once you go down that self-employment path, it’s like a forbidden fruit. Once I tasted it and started applying to jobs about a year later, even values aligned jobs with organizations whose outputs were aligned with my vision for a Better World for all that, that, but you’d have to worry about PTO.

You’d have to commute, you wouldn’t have ownership of how you work. Sure. It just ate away at me and so I, it felt terrible at first, honestly, because, the, my first engagement was very small, but I decided I have to work for myself. I wanted to launch a professional services firm because the low startup costs were highly attractive.

And so I started a consultancy and my. Core value from the beg. My two core values from the beginning of that journey that remain true today are one, there must be a better way to work, and I think I have to build it. Two, the world is a better place for all when anybody who feels called to start a business.

Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, but when everyone who feels called to take that journey has the tools to do so. I’ve gone as far as even imagining a world where even in working for a large corporation, we are all independent contractors, and I know that is often used in an extractive manner, but what if we were empowered to set our wages to set how much PTO we get at set to set how we work to say, no, I don’t wanna do that task.

That’s outside of the scope of work we agreed upon. So I’m a big believer in. Entrepreneurship as a means to empower oneself to have ownership of how we work. And that also includes the values we bring forth in our work. If something is important to us, there’s no reason that can, can’t be reflected in our work, no matter what it is we do.

My business is not inherently values based. I’m a business consultant. However when I choose. Holiday cards to send to clients. I can find a small business that prints on sustainable paper here in the us and, embody sustainable practices. Yes, I can prioritize clients who are doing work that I really admire in the world.

I. I can buy used equipment like monitors or what have you, because that has a 90% lower carbon footprint. And so I, I firmly believe no matter what kind of business we run, we also have the opportunity as entrepreneurs to run those businesses as tools to advance our values, whatever they may be. And I think that that’s part of what jazzes me when I’m getting up in the morning and deciding every day to come do this crazy thing of building businesses 

Kim Allchurch Flick: and your story is so important and it speaks to what I see in several people who have had corporate life and I, myself had corporate life and there’s a lot of carrots dangling, and yet did you feel as, I think many of us have going to work meant putting on a mask to do the work, to make the quarterly numbers, and then going home and being yourself, where being an entrepreneur means sometimes we can be ourself the whole time.

Kathryn Latham: Yes, but I’d say it was even deeper than that. It wasn’t a mask I put on and put off. It was, I am changing my entire identity to be what work demands of me and work. There was no, not work. I was always anxious after work. I adopted some pretty what felt revolutionary practices. Like I refuse to put Gmail notifications on my phone.

It’s like my manager has my number. If there’s a true deal disaster and there are very few, but if there’s a true deal disaster, she’ll call me. But the guilt of knowing the rest of my team was up sending email. It was a badge of honor to send emails until 10 11 at night. There were times where I needed to get on calls at 6:00 PM at 10:00 PM at whatever.

So it wasn’t a mask. It was my life is my work. There is no outside of work. And yet that was at odds with who I knew myself to be and absolutely entrepreneurship. I do feel like I’m able to show up, especially in this season. I’ve been at it for about almost four years now. I have the confidence to say I don’t wanna take that call because I just don’t feel good about it.

So yeah, really being in the driver’s sheet seat and being empowered to bring my authentic self into how I work is an absolutely a huge benefit and reward of working this way. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, absolutely. As you know, I have been working a little bit with the small business development center. And a lot of the new entrepreneurs coming in are people from corporate worlds.

Who have incredible skills and they’ve been laid off, or they’re burnt and they wanna create something on their own. 

Kathryn Latham: And 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I found in my experience, the gift I took from having been in corporate life was. Business knowledge and acumen to carry that forward. But the burnout part was amazing.

And what would you say to listeners who are currently in that state about what it feels like to separate from that corporate stress and give yourself grace to, to be optimistic about a new path? Ugh. 

Kathryn Latham: I loved two things you said there. One optimism and two business acumen. So yes be optimistic. I would say something I’ve learned is really critical in entrepreneurship is that optimism, because if you don’t, if you aren’t able to embody that, it’s a really depressing way to work.

There’s so much more uncertainty in entrepreneurship. Or, around the metrics like financial stability particularly in the early stages that here in the US many of us see as a marker of success of our identity. So there’s so much uncertainty and without optimism and faith in something that it is going to be okay.

It is a miserable way to work. So whatever you have to do to nurture that spiritual practices running. Having a friend who will I through an organ entrepreneurship network, someone said the most valuable people on your journey will be those you can cry to, like cry, bawling your eyes out to your friend.

And ha Or an example I love to give is, I’m fortunate to have an aunt who just every I could, every little thing I do, you’re wonderful. You should run for congress. You’re amazing. You’re so smart, you’re beautiful. Tapping into those people, whatever it is, nurture that optimism. And also know every entrepreneur from Phil Knight, founder of Nike to the smaller businesses like us have moments of doubt all the time.

And so don’t take those moments of doubt as a sign that you’re not enough or not a good fit. Everyone has those. How do you develop the skillset of holding onto optimism and. Back that up with strong business practices, for example, optimism that your product will make it and you should draw down your 401k to invest in building out that product or manufacturing it and getting it to market when you haven’t demonstrated that there’s willingness to pay behind your customer pace.

That might not be the best type of optimism. So yes, hold on to general optimism, but you have to bring a business know-how to that, to protect yourself, to make sure you’ve built a strong business foundation so that you can have long-term success versus, and I’ve sadly heard these stories. I talked to a woman a few years ago who had drawn down her entire 401k.

And she was fairly close to retirement to launch a product, and I asked, talk to me about your, customer discovery process, your customer research, and she said, oh, I didn’t do any because this type of product is so new. No one had anything to say on it, and my heart broke. Because if she had had those conversations, if she had done that due diligence, she would’ve seen, there’s just not a market for this product.

So yes, be optimistic, but also take care of yourself so that the op, the choices that optimism drives are also rooted in good business practices. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you for saying that and reminding us all that it does matter. Having a foundation is important and having a vision is important. You’ve also mentioned the word values and on, on your journey of transition to your business. What have been your values along the way and how have you had support?

Kathryn Latham: So that, oh goodness, there’s so many. Accessibility to entrepreneurship is a big one. Again, I truly believe the world is a better place when anyone who feels called to starting a business feels that they can.

It’s expensive. I had savings to cushion my journey. I have a. Partner who shares health insurance, or who I can get health insurance through. I had a family who was like my big, were my biggest cheerleaders. Not everyone has that s both financial and emotional support network.

Places like Portland, Oregon, and I will love on Portland so much as a place to start a business. Our. And early stage capital, that’s just hard for everybody all around, everywhere right now, especially, but especially in terms of that emotional support and entrepreneurs who are developing interesting ways to make healthcare access and benefits easier for self-employed people.

Portland does such a strong, loving, supportive community. Other values I really seek to bring the changes I wanna see in the world. Into my business. I would like a future in which I wake up not wondering about the future state of the environment. For example, will my nieces and nephews have drinking water?

Yes. Will, what will happen to I’m in Vermont right now, a highly agricultural state. What will happen to our beloved agricultural entrepreneurs if we have more years of drought like we had last year, which was terribly challenging. So absolutely sustainability values. Another is social.

I do not want my business to be extractive, an extractive presence in others’ lives. For example, when, we do sometimes we work with teams abroad, I. I’m, I often offer them more than they come to me with, because they come to me with kind of the standard market rate. But my research around a living wage suggests that is not a living wage in those locations.

Okay. So even though it’s more expensive, to me, I’d rather go to sleep at night knowing, yeah I paid more for, this contract abroad, but. I know I was paying that individual a living wage where they live. Choosing to pay. This is something I recently have been doing was working on some website updates.

Realize their Pixa Bay is a great website to directly pay artists for stock photos. Even though their value prop is free stock photos, they also connect you directly to the, make a donation to those artists via PayPal or buy me a coffee if you want. Again. I could have those photos for free, but that values thing enlightens within me that says it’ll feel a lot better if you pay this person directly for their work.

So I do. And all of that takes time, right? There’s a lot of research that goes into that. The internet is highly supportive of that. Thank goodness for having all this wonderful information at our fingertips, and also finding communities of entrepreneurs who share that same. Ideology that, we’d rather do it in a way that feels right to us than in the most capitalist.

I’m gonna enrich myself way possible. Not every entrepreneur values the same things I do. I have entrepreneurial friends who are very focused on how do I make my business as profitable as possible because I want to fly private all the time. And those are their business values and frankly, good on them for.

Building businesses that do that, but that’s not what feels aligned to me. Again, Portland has been a no surprise, a wonderful place to cultivate those types of communities of values minded entrepreneurs who don’t look at you like you’re wild for suggesting oh yeah, I paid someone twice what they asked, because that felt better to me.

So yeah, I would say getting out there and find particularly group settings and also individuals. When we, I feel acceptance and understanding when we talk about these things, Kim. Yeah. So it doesn’t need to be finding a big group. It’s kinda like, who are your, who are the people who are on this journey with you?

’cause no one will understand it. Like them who share your values. That I think is really important to bring into your entrepreneurial life. Call it business development. I also, frankly, think those people are some of the folks who make the best referral partners, because when we have deep conversations about what matters to us, it helps build trust.

So it’s this virtuous cycle of getting support and advancing your own values. And then you might be surprised with, oh, hey, so and so just referred me a client or sent my product page to someone they know because they tr they like how I do business. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. How do you express your values so that your clients can find you and remember that and embody it.

Kathryn Latham: I find myself shrinking away a little. I know that this is such a key part of your work, Kim, and frankly, I am realizing I haven’t done a great job of that. There have been a few opportunities, like public speaking opportunities. I was fortunate to participate in a TEDx talk a few years ago that was rooted in climate.

And so to get on stage and share about my idea that any small business can be a climate. Focus business and share my story was deeply rewarding. So that, I suppose, was one avenue. Other than that, I would say in just one, one-off conversations. Interestingly, I was working yesterday on kind of some long-term visioning around both my current business and future business activities.

And I thought of your work and the, yeah. Thinking about, I’m not measuring any of this. I have my values listed here and I’m not measuring any of that, and I do recognize that as a gap both for growth purposes, there’s so much data out there that consumers today are more likely to purchase products from businesses aligned from their value or aligned with their values, but also from on my own.

Psychological compensation standpoint. I am someone who loves checking the box, and I have no way to check the box since I’m not really measuring those impacts. It’s more of do I feel good in the body about. These decisions like do I feel full body peace or is there something gnawing at me and saying I’m not sure that was values aligned, Catherine.

Which is hard to market. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I think it’s authentic though, and I’ve also noticed so many values driven companies that do not. Check boxes and mark things down, and yet they’ve created something as a solution to their lived experience. And that is the entire goal. The thing I wonder though, is humans are, we, as people are, get so much information 

And it is hard for people to remember something. It’s been said that people have to see something at least seven times before they’ll remember it. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And we also know from Nielsen studies, one of the quotes I love from several studies, but A around 2014, Nielsen said that globally two thirds of consumers B2B and B2C are willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company has good values.

So there’s two things there. One, one I think is, okay, they’re willing to pay more. It doesn’t mean we have to charge more. 

But knowing that they’re are willing. And the other thing is when they know a company has good values and then a second study was done and millennials only in that percentage was 73%.

And what I see is the big gap between the people who are looking and the companies that. Express the values that are searchable. Yeah. And find, yes. So in between, that’s where some of this articulation comes from. Yeah. And granted, there are verifications and certifications that have directories and things that make it easier.

But once, I have also noticed that once a person’s in a company’s values are seated in their community’s mind and in a person’s mind. People start to think about it like reflex. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: So it’s the getting there. And I know because we’ve had several conversations that I am drawn to your work and your values and know how to express it.

But for someone who is to meet you for the first time there, there would be a natural gap. And yet 66%. Of people globally are looking. So all of us have customers, partners, and clients in that pool of people. Yeah. And I was just wondering what you see with that. And I also look at that as a, that’s a big number.

So it’s a place of optimism and if we can make those connections more, we can drive change. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. I am not surprised to hear those statistics again. And I recognize. Like my, my and my husband and I are grocery shopping. He’ll see me with the phone out and the two products in hand and he is like, okay, you’re gonna need some time in this aisle.

I can tell. So I recognize my research hat, like I’m someone who’s going to go deep in put maybe a little too much time into Product A, product B. They both say they’re X, y, Z value, but what, which one is better? Indeed, yes. I also, I’m thinking of, I love what you said about, well, how do you.

How are consumers finding those businesses, whether they’re B2B or B2C businesses? I think of things that I personally use in my life. There’s for skincare products, there’s a database called by Environmental Working Group called Skin Deep. I, that’s a bookmarked I, every time I’m thinking about a new, oh, here I need sunscreen, does this meet their criteria for like clean.

A clean skincare product both for human health and environmental health. So again, like those statistics don’t surprise me. Something else I think is very true, and this is more in the my world, right? Like more high value business growth consulting services, referrals and word of mouth are such an important part of how businesses like mine grow and gain customers.

And when somebody, when you share a commu, a values-based community with somebody, even if you are not like a hanging out necessarily in the same spaces, but if somebody sees you as, oh, I know that Kathryn is working to advance this in her personal life, I’m gonna refer her, those are alive. And what those like behind the scenes.

Referral engines are alive and well. And so I would say that’s somewhere I do, I have seen it show up for me is many of my referrals have come from people who it. At some point acknowledged, the reason I sent them your way, even if I personally haven’t worked with you, is that I trust you and I trust that your work is working in the same direction that my work seeks to.

So I would say that’s one place it does show up for me. But as a business owner, again, I think that is an opportunity for me is to. Create those connection points so that those looking for services like those I provide have a better way to find me rather than, oh, I heard from a friend that Latham Business Solutions might share these values.

There must be, I was talking with somebody yesterday about how do we like, have better control over our marketing versus this just trust-based, oh, customers will find me. And that seems like an opportunity. For me and my business. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. I see and hear in what you’re saying as well, that referrals and the word getting out between people is also.

A sense of trust that might be really hard to market and express. Yeah. Except to get to know people. And the other thing I’ve seen what you’re saying and I see it in myself and my clients, is there’s another level as well, and that’s even after the work is done and the invoices are paid, that there’s a constant level of.

Communication and advocacy. 

And that’s what I think I see in the world of social enterprise, which is a very broad term for the audience listening. Yeah. And there are many things that may or may not call themselves social enterprise, but in values driven companies, I think one of the things that is a common thread is that we advocate for things.

We advocate for clients. People advocate for us. We also advocate for issues in community and we advocate for change. And that’s beyond the paywall. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. And that 

Kim Allchurch Flick: is just part of being a person in our work, but also being a person in our lives. Yeah. And you mentioned doing a TED Talk on the environment, and that seems like one of those things, an advocacy for something beyond the work, beyond the revenue stream.

And yet something that you value. And I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about that. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. Interesting you said beyond the revenue stream, because that was one of the most in terms again, of that psychological compensation, this feels good. That was one of the most rewarding things I’ve done so far.

Yeah. Through as part of this business and yeah, it’s funny, I ended up, it was almost an accident that I ended up doing it. I jumped at the opportunity before realizing it was climate focused and the was talking with the person hosting, and they were like, we just gotta make it climate focused.

And that’s when I decided to, originally my idea was focused on advocating for. Founders to design a business around them and their needs because they’re their business’s most important asset. When I started thinking about it through the climate lens, I had this aha that was, I can advocate for that and for using one’s business as a tool to advance environmental values and really rally behind the rally small business owners behind this idea.

It doesn’t matter what your product is. Well, there are some, if you’re. User, you can use your imaginations. There are some, if you wanna start a new refinery, like maybe you’re hopeless. But for most small businesses or businesses in general, there are so many operational levers we pull every day.

And any one of those levers can be pulled in the direction of positive climate outcomes. And so that’s what I really spoke to and I believe so deeply in this idea that. It’s risky and taxing to start a business. We have to reward ourselves as much as we can so that we have the fuel to keep going.

And one of the ways we can do that is think about the operational levers. By that I mean every little decision you make every day. What email provider am I going to go with? Like I mentioned earlier, where am I gonna source the cards I send my clients this year? How am I like when I am in places like Portland with great public transit networks?

I take the bus because I can and because it feels good occasionally. I also love the lime scooters. I will not lie, but I like I, unless it’s way, unless it’s impossible to get to by bus or just a really arduous journey using transit, I take, I make the choice. Okay. Now I, I might need to double my transit time, but I get to make that decision because nobody is telling me what to do.

I don’t have a board of directors. It’s just me up, up at the top. And so yeah, it’s and, this is reflective not just of climate, but of any value. Yes. And that was what really filled me up about that experience is looking into the crowd and seeing the aha looks on everyone’s faces at, lots of entrepreneurs in the crowd thinking about, oh wait, I own my own business.

I’m thinking through the decisions I made last month and how I could have made different decisions that brought whatever my values are. Into them. Like I could see those, that mental math and those aha moments. And the big beauty of it the part that really jazzes me up right, is when you look at one small business, it’s easy to feel hopeless again, whatever your value might be.

But thinking about the climate lens, my little business barely has an impact on the climate, no matter what I do. But when you think of all the small businesses in the us, I forget the exact metrics, but if every small business took very reasonable climate friendly actions in the US together, the impact on CO2 emissions could be greater than what Chevron emits in a single year.

And that’s one of the top polluters globally. So when you think about, okay, as one. It, not, it just, our opportunity for impact is small and I think it’s important to be realistic about that. However, when we combine all of those small impacts, we really do, as small business owners have the opportunity to change the world for the better, and that is so exciting.

Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that you said that. And sometimes I also feel small working from home, doing little things, and yet I had a home experiment that I did because I was tired of seeing the really giant. Tubs of laundry soap. 

Kathryn Latham: And, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: and throwing those into recycling, which is a broken system. And knowing that they probably weren’t being recycled at all.

And I think part of what helps us in these decisions is over time there are more and more and more innovations. 

Kathryn Latham: So people 

Kim Allchurch Flick: are giving us more tools. So I didn’t experiment. And looked up eco-friendly laundry. No plastic, 

Kathryn Latham: yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Keywords. No plastic and or plastic free. And found three companies. So I bought from all three of them.

Yeah. Non-scented and. I did laundry on a rotating basis with different products and didn’t tell anybody. Oh. And no. And nobody noticed. Yeah. And the people that I do laundry for. Yeah. Nobody noticed. Yeah. And so after three or four months I announced it and I said, okay, we’re switching. Last bottle of plastic is going out now.

Don’t buy anymore. Yeah. I’ve got, I have these options and. But the thing is the quality part had already been tested. Yeah. Nobody noticed that things are coming back. Yeah. Smelling different or coming back dirtier. And because of that, because of innovation. Yeah. We have more and more options in these innovators.

I have been able to remove plastic from laundry and cleaning. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Next step food. More difficult. Yeah. But reduction. But the thing I notice is it’s the little things that, like you said, a cumulative effect. If we can gather people together and talk about it, say if you do this, if our block does this, if our neighborhood does this, if our city does this, if our families do this.

Yeah. The cumulative effect, when you just got me with that saying, it could offset. Chevron. Yeah. Is, I think that’s where we really need to think about how do we state our values and community as a collective voice. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. And start 

Kim Allchurch Flick: to get that moving. And this is one of those things that also might be, it’s an advocacy, it’s part of our values, part of business, part of life.

Kathryn Latham: Not 

Kim Allchurch Flick: part of revenue. 

And yet sometimes. It can take a lot of time and effort. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And yet I never think it’s not worth it. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. Because it’s 

Kim Allchurch Flick: worth it. And I love that you said that for the environment. The other thing is Portland started a through formerly Audubon Society in Alberta Alliance.

Started the certified backyard habitat quite a while ago, but it was only in parts of Multnomah County and. I did get through, a friend I got on a list was on a list for two years before they were able to expand to other counties and now they have more volunteers and that’s another thing we can do is small to medium changes to the outdoors that provide natural plants and pollination, leave the leaves.

Some practices like that. It’s cumulative and, but even in my little backyard there are birds and I see butterflies and release mason bees. That’s one small space for those creatures that might be great habitat and then spread the word. But the other benefit that came of it is where there used to be other plants.

I water a lot less. 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: So that’s another thing that, that comes about and spreading these ideas. So you being able to do a Ted Talk reaches a lot of people, and I was wondering like future forward on these kind of topics. What do you envision and what drives you? 

Kathryn Latham: Yeah. 

Be, so before I answer that, can I just reflect two things based you just said?

Yes, absolutely. The first is when you. We’re talking about seeing more birds and bees in your backyard. You, your face lit up and Yeah, we talked about, yeah, that might not be a, these value-based activities, they feel non-revenue generating. But if you think about how much money we pay to feel good, like, oh I, join, I have a monthly membership at a yoga studio.

I pay that so I can feel good. But you, this activity made you feel good. So if you think about it through a financial lens like that you, feeling good is that there’s such a high value on, and if we look at our spending habits, we can back it into a monetary value, or at least that we’re willing to pay for those feel good feelings.

So how cool that you have been able to achieve that by advancing your values, not in a way that benefits not just you, but your community. And I also absolutely love what you said about the innovation because there are more innovations, we have more opportunities to advance our values and in new ways.

What, what lit up within me when you said that is. Most of those innovators, they’re not the gigantic corporations. Yes, a Clorox might acquire a seventh generation once there’s, a proven large slice of the market that wants to buy that type of product. But it takes brave little upstarts, whether they’re going a small business or startup route.

To bring those innovations to market because these, again, these large corporations are so focused on, for the most part, driving revenue this quarter, this year that, yes. Why change? Why change the status quo if it’s working for them so well? And so yes, to nurturing entrepreneurship, particularly in values-based communities because it is those brave entrepreneurs who create those new possibilities for us.

So yeah, I wanted to, just wanted to. Felt called to go back there. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I appreciate that. So how are you looking at the future? It’s a big, big concept, but it’s you are very future forward and have terrific values. So what do you see? Oh, thank you.

Kathryn Latham: For me personally, I’m looking at how I can.

What is the future of my entrepreneurial journey? I’m looking at starting to bring the practices that I’ve honed and continue to hone through consulting work, to acquiring small businesses, other small services businesses, bringing those operational and strategy practices into them. But doing it in a way that feels, not like nasty private equity, but good for me.

And I’ve started just now thinking through what are, what do those values and how do I do this in a way that is aligned with them, particularly when there’s so many opportunities to be extractive, entering that type of deal. So that, yeah, just thinking about broadening impact, that’s something I’m thinking about also more I love to write, and this was, one of these.

I’ve had a lot of moments in the past few months. It’s like, just do it Catherine. If you wanna do the thing, there’s never gonna be that perfect moment. Just do it. So I’m starting to think about how I can tap into my joy of writing and share these ideas more broadly. Mainly through articles article opportunities.

I actually am a I’m one of the freakish people who enjoys public speaking. So also, always delighted to share these ideas via that type of avenue as well. And globally or beyond me. I think something that really surprised me earlier this year, right? It was a time of economic chaos, particularly around mid-January here in the US as a lot of uncertainty.

I, I was a prepared for a slow year of business thinking, I. Like most of my client base are small businesses. 

And nonprofits and their budgets are, it’s a very uncertain e economy, particularly for that type of business. This is probably the year they say, we’re gonna put off that engagement.

We’re not gonna pursue this growth opportunity. We’re not gonna pursue this strategic improvement. But what I’ve seen is the opposite because I think a lot are, a lot of entrepreneurs are saying as a. I almost a, an act of defiance. I can’t change the overall state of the whole world by myself, but what I can do is build a thriving small business or a nonprofit that does an even better job delivering what we set out to do.

And I can do that in a way that. Protects its wellbeing into the long run so that I, as its owner and my team, as our employees, don’t have to worry or at least feel like we have some level of control over this economic uncertainty. And so I have seen, despite the uncertainty this year, nonprofits and small businesses hitting the ground, running, hustling, really almost fighting harder, particularly when there are values related, if, even if the product isn’t value related, if the, it’s a company with, strong values. And this gives me a lot of hope because I think that as the world, looking at all kinds of predictions that, their indicators, that uncertainty is going to continue to increase. I think entrepreneurs in particular will rise to that occasion, use their businesses as levers to protect themselves, to protect their families, their teams, their communities, and to advance what matters to them because they’re not seeing that happen globally.

We’re seeing pullback from policy that supports and values like sustainability, immigration, et cetera. And so I’ve, I think it’s a seize the moment kind of opportunity looking at the next five plus years for many small business owners. And we’re a. We’re a brave bunch.

We’re catalysts for something, even if it was starting a business. And so I think it’s a community that’s particularly well positioned to be the owners of that change because most of us did that in some way to start a business. Why not deepen that and then, and go to sleep, maybe a lit breathing a little bit easier at night, feeling like I as a business owner have.

A little bit of control over these outcomes I’m seeing around me versus just laying down and pulling the covers over my head and crying about it, which is also very reasonable and the more, the direction I thought the world might go. So I think, yeah, I feel hopeful about the spreading of values and particularly entrepreneurs using their ventures as a lever to advance them.

Kim Allchurch Flick: I am so moved by that and I think it is so important for us to remember that the words power and control have a good side as well. 

And to have a powerful business to have control of a business because small businesses. Are so important for communities. And collectively. Yeah. Like in Oregon is an example of where small businesses collectively are the economic engine of the state.

And yes, there are large businesses, we know who they are and those are important as well. They employ people, small businesses, so important. And that support there. So I am going to that quote. Building a small business is like an act of defiance. In a very positive way. 

That is a beautiful statement.

So another reason for advocacy, if we can help small businesses 

Kathryn Latham: Yes. Be 

Kim Allchurch Flick: strong. Yeah. That also is a collective act of defiance. Yeah. And gratitude for what they’re doing and why. And the values based part of it is ever present because there’s. It’s the whole thing about people and planet and profit and environment and all of those things.

It’s hard to separate, even though you and I both come from corporations that, 

Kathryn Latham: yeah, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: that put the profit first and try to separate everything else, but they are in interconnected whether we think about it daily or not. So an active defiance. In support of and in support of community. Yeah. And the environment and all those things can be true at once.

Yeah. That’s what a lovely thing. Yeah. So if you could have dinner with anyone living or not, maybe up to a table of four, who would it be and why? 

Kathryn Latham: When I look at the names I wrote down, this is gonna have to be three consecutive dinner dates. I don’t think this could all exist in one without catastrophe.

The first is some of my ancestors who were very small business owners 

And really leaned on those small businesses to build a better life from farmers and agriculture to I have a, my great aunt Lydia owned an antique shop in the Chicago area. And was, it just continues to be almost worshiped in our family for her business prowess.

They all passed away before I went down this journey, and I would love to sit down with them with what, where I am today, what I know today, and ask like we never talked about greet, my aunt lady shop. I never got to ask my, farmer ancestors who ran farms of small businesses what that was like, and lessons learned.

So I, I would love to sit down with them. The next, and this is where it’s like we really need consecutive dinner dates. I would love to sit down with Michelle and Barack Obama. That was such, the Obama years in the White House were such a moment of hope. I worked on both campaigns. I 

The first time I could vote in a federal, a presidential election was for Obama.

And I remember just the night he won, just sobbing because it was like such a moment of hope. He also, he was also of course an imperfect leader, although one I deeply admire and. Has reflected so deeply and openly on, on his leadership experience. I would love to, yeah. Just that’s a brain I would love to pick.

We also have the Chicago connection. I was born in Chicago. We got to see him rise through the state government to, when he ran at the federal level for the first time and they literally could not find an opponent. That’s when our, really, we really started getting excited. My dad saw him, went to one of his events and came home and said, this Obama man, like he’s one to watch.

And so I just so much there. And also I love Michelle’s. Just books. Her advice becoming was a book I read right when I was making the decision right before I made the decision to jump into entrepreneurship. And it was for anybody who’s contemplating a big life change or maybe feel stuck at the intersection, her the advice she shares on that book in particular was so.

Helpful to me. So just the two of them, what a power couple. Just the dream and then the last one. I would like to have dinner with Donald Trump. I,

I don’t think I’d trust much that came out of it, but I just, I would, some, I would if given the opportunity to, in a setting of where I was not alone with that person, sit across from them and get to energetically feel them out and try and wrap my mind around why are you doing these things?

I don’t even know how to go about having that conversation, but I was surprised when you asked that prompt originally that that was a name that came up for me. So I would. Really, I think it would be very interesting to have a conversation with that person. Try to challenge in a and just probe in a way that doesn’t get flat out rejected with a very tough skin.

I’ve seen how he treats female journalists and women in general. But some, I don’t know. My I crave some understanding of why is it. I, is this all to get back at your dad? Is there a deep trauma there? Are you an evil person? Are, is there a pathological, disorder at play here? Not that I am equipped to suss that out, but yeah I would value that conversation.

I think I would probably leave, not super happy, but I would have it. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That is so fascinating and. I love that you just jumped right into it, because a lot would be very dismissive of getting near someone they don’t like. But yet I’ve always carried a quote with me and that is that everybody has a motive.

And so when, think about it, wouldn’t it be interesting to find out what are the motives and what is cared about if, 

Kathryn Latham: yeah. That’s the what, ma, what really what matters. What, what matters. And how is that driving? I don’t know why that feels like it’s important to understand, but it does, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: and like you say, it doesn’t mean we have to like the answer, but there’s something about under earth understanding motive.

It can at least help reason out some whys. Yeah. That’s a fascinating answer. I love how you talked about that. We’re about to wrap up. Is there anything else you’d like to add? 

Kathryn Latham: One thing that just ri is rising up within me is to the entrepreneurs listening. One of the most important things I’ve heard often from total strangers is keep going.

Like I shared at the beginning, yes, please keep going with solid business practices, however, keep going. It’s, it can feel like such an uphill battle. There are days that, yes, the highs are higher than they were in previous work settings, but the lows are so much lower and those lows can drive.

I heard some advice recently that was, if you’re going to quit, do it on a good day. And so I might just invite that type of thinking. Keep going. And if it really feels like you can’t do yourself the favor of making sure that decision is coming from a place of one of those not low days that we all experience.

Because on those days, for every one of us, again, whether you’re Phil Knight or someone like us, it feels like. The only path forward to protect you is to quit. And as we’ve talked about here, small businesses give me so much hope for the future. So for yourself and for all of us, keep going. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, thank you so much.

And also know that there’s help. And I didn’t come into this podcast to promote anything, but I do wanna remind people that there is help in almost every city and every state. Yeah. And the one that is consistent and there are a lot of incubators and there are a lot of places to go. So do look in your local areas.

And the small business development centers are designed to have. Advising for startups that’s at no cost in classes that are inexpensive. And the reason that is good is it’s available almost everywhere. Yeah. So as a reminder for everybody of that, Catherine, I wanna thank you so much for your time.

Conversations with you are always fascinating. Your heart resonates with tremendous values. You’ve been through a journey that many people resonate with, I’m sure. Myself as well. People who have come from corporate life and been laid off or left, and it takes some healing time to transition into something else and create something new and to have optimism about that.

So I’m glad to have a future with you in it. And everyone there are show notes you’ll see how to communicate with and reach out to Catherine and. We will all have future podcasts that are meant for businesses, social enterprise, and basically doing good in general in the world and optimism. So thank you all.

Kathryn Latham: Thank you, Kim.