Radical Self-Care as Resistance with Heather Beiden Jacobs of Transformative Wellbeing Coaching

Kim Allchurch Fick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast. And today I am delighted to bring in a dear friend that I’ve known for over 20 years. This is Heather Beiden Jacobs. Heather is a wellbeing coach who helps mission-driven individuals, take radically good care of themselves, because in moments this demanding of our clarity and courage, self-care isn’t a luxury, it’s a strategic infrastructure.

A lifelong activist and an eternal optimist grounded in reality. Heather supports organizers, nonprofit leaders, and purpose-driven change makers seeking balance, resilience, and renewed purpose based in the Portland metro area. Heather brings a grounded presence and a gift of metaphor that makes complex experiences easier to navigate.

Her coaching creates a clearing where people can breathe, reflect, and flourish. Today we’re gonna talk about radical self-care, the inner work of resistance. Wow. So great to have you here. 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Aw, Kim. Thank you. It’s good to be here with you. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: You know this top, this recording today is gonna resonate with previous recordings that I’ve had, where I’ve heard quotes like A strong business is a force of resistance and O, others of that nature as well.

And I am so glad to have you talking about how to help the people work through the issues of the times. And generally we’re in 2026 and this is evergreen, but there are things that are relevant today that’ll be relevant down the road as well. So thanks again for being here, my dear friend. What has been your inspirations and your journey and challenges to this point?

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Wow. There’s so much to unpack from that. I try and hit some of the highlights or maybe the low lights. I, looking back at, my young life, I had I grew up with a lot of trauma. There was a lot of abuse in the house. My mother struggled with substance use disorder and alcohol use disorder.

So I got I got more than my fair share of adverse childhood experiences in my young life. And looking back, I see how critical that was in helping me as somebody who’s very, I am very sensitive. I’m very porous, and to be able to learn how to navigate that kind of energy as a young child is something that I am actually leaning on a lot today in the 2026 of just all the toxicity in all of that we are experiencing.

And then moving through that, one of the biggest points of shifting for me was when I was diagnosed with diabetes, which is something we’ve talked about before. I, I was eight years old at the time and this was like in the seventies, so it’s very different than where we are today. And I was, I went into a coma and I spent three days in ICU.

And so it’s, so I was diagnosed on October 15th. I celebrated on October 18th. Because that’s when I found out that I had diabetes and when I awoke the I have very vivid memory of the, the doctor coming in and he was talking over me to my parents and he said that I shouldn’t have lived. They were surprised that I survived the coma and that I had what he called, I was a brittle juvenile diabetic, so he labeled me right out of the gate.

And that made me very angry. I did not like the term brittle because I saw myself as very tough. I was a tomboy and. I didn’t identify with brittle and he continued that. I would be dead by 40 and by that time I would be blind with an amputation and on dialysis. I didn’t know as a child how to do what that even meant.

I was eight years old when this happened, and living in that environment, my parents had divorced at this point. And just growing up with a lot of trauma and a mother who had her own demons and challenges and really. Imparted on me this sense of unworthiness, I was undeserving of love and I was a burden that was made very clear to me through my, my life of how hard it was to be my parent.

And so I internalized not surprising a lot of that messaging as a young child. And then as I started to get older, I like all humans. I wanted to feel like a sense of agency that I had some power over my life. And the way I viewed it was, rather than be dead by 40, I wanted to be dead by 30.

And so I embraced all of the behaviors that were not recommended. If it was bad for you, I did it. I did it with great gusto. Looking back at like my peer group I ate more sugar, I drank more alcohol, I did more drugs, I smoked more. I was just trying to facilitate my own demise and I’m an overachiever.

And so I was accelerate, I was excelling at it and just stuck in that space. I didn’t think I deserved better than that. It was when I was about 19 years old, was the very beginning of the shifting of my path. I had I had been sick for quite some time and reticent with not getting care and my roommate called the the ambulance on me.

They got hauled into er and by the time I got there, I had I could barely breathe. I come to find out later, I had many strains of pneumonia in addition to being in ketoacidosis. I was in the ER and I, this the doctor came in to intubate me. He’s got a tube and he goes to jam it up my right nostril.

And I have a very narrow passageway and I remember feeling this like warmth of blood dropping down my lip. And so I took a swing at him and was immediately put into restraints. And I remember to this day, the, it, the the fight that I had trying to breathe. Trying to hold on to this life.

And and then I just couldn’t do it anymore. I just couldn’t do it. And I remember just like letting go. I, I don’t know how many when it was after that, but I later woke up and I see it with a, a tube down my throat. ’cause I couldn’t get it through my, my na my nose and and all these machines.

And I was pissed. I was so angry that I woke up. I had, I thought I had achieved it. I thought I was well ahead of schedule. I thought I had, done what I had been trying to do. And yeah I remember just being so angry and I had three and a half weeks on the ventilator in ICU where I just stewed in self-hatred.

And. Looking back, if it wasn’t for the two nurses that were there, Carol and Jeff, I remember them to this day. The compassion, the kindness, these people didn’t even know me and they treated me with such generosity of heart and spirit, and I felt I felt seen in a way that I had not.

Outside of my aunt Sissy, my beloved, and my Nona Bella. They were the two people in my life that really saw me for who I was and didn’t think I was I was a burden. But I just I didn’t know what else to do. I had been in this way for so long and there was, this was in the East Bay of California, San Francisco Bay area.

And it was rainy. It was spring and it was a spring rain. And that’s not very common. And I remember seeing the rain in the puddles pulling up in the parking lot outside, and I love puddles. I used to love jumping in puddles when I was young, and it was like I would’ve given anything to have been able to do that.

And I’m like, I can’t even breathe on my own. Let alone go jump in puddles. And it was in that moment that I was like this is, I can’t, I’m not going to do this anymore. And I really I rededicated the energy towards. Focusing on being able to breathe on my own. And so I was working with respiratory therapist and within 24 hours I was out of ICU and off of the ventilator.

And spent a few days in the hospital. They wanted me there longer, but I hated hospitals. And I went against doctor recommendations and I checked myself out. It’d be a glorious story if that was the moment that everything changed, but it’s not. I ended up going and hanging out with my friends and smoking and drinking that night.

But something had shifted in that experience at the hospital. And then it was it was about a year later that I, I was, my dearest friend started working at a restaurant called Charlie Brown’s in the Bay Area, and I met who is now my partner and started working there. And Blaine was just like I have so much love for this guy.

He just, he was fun and he made me feel like I deserved to be loved. And, we were friends for like over a year and a half before we even started dating. I never thought I would get married. I never thought I was gonna have the life that I am living right now. I thought I would be dead a long time ago.

It was it was a point where I had a different way of thinking about it. Me. Perishing and having a miserable death. That was all well and good. I deserved it. Blaine didn’t, and it was the thought of him taking me to dialysis. That really, really shifted it for me. I just, I knew it would break his heart and I didn’t wanna break his heart.

He didn’t deserve that. And so I began this journey of healing that, was full of fits and starts and fails and I, I remember the because it’s not that I didn’t know what to do, right? Like so many of us, we know what to do. I had been told a hundred times over what I needed to do.

I just didn’t really know how to do it. How to sustain doing it, let alone why I would want to do these things. That was the beginning of me learning how to heal and to tend to me in a way that I believe all of us humans deserve with some compassion and kindness. If I look back at some of the darker days of my life, I wouldn’t believe me.

If I met me, I’d be like, that’s just, that’s a bunch of bs. There’s no way that this is my future. I would not believe that this is the life that I’m living. And it’s been through that journey of navigating those times and how to actually change that has led me to do the work that I do in coaching.

I, I understand the terrain. We all have different journeys and there’s a lot of overlap. We’re all human. And I have been able to take some of the things I hated about myself like my alcohol use disorder, my, all these things that I really hated about me. I see them now as blessings and gifts because I learned so much.

By getting sober, I learned so much in the process of quitting smoking and getting healthier and doing this that I wouldn’t have gotten if I didn’t have all of those things to tend to. My life has been a, a journey of hoarding behaviors that are detrimental to the human body and spirit to a, a, a clearing and a reordering of my internal house that I.

I know is possible. And that’s what’s so incredible, Kim, is that I am not special. I’m not, I’m human, and we are all capable of this. It’s our capacity and what we are capable of is something that I think very few people are aware of. And as a coach, that’s what I do I shine a light on the the potential, the human potential that is with.

Within the people that I coach. And as we say, it’s like my, my confidence in their ability to thrive is greater than their doubt. And I meet everyone with the same generous spirit that helped me begin my journey looking back at those two nurses and my beloveds. So it’s been quite a journey, and now I get to do this work and help people find their own way in their own lives.

Kim Allchurch Fick: Oh wow. It’s, I’ve heard your story before and the depth that you’re giving us now it’s so resonant because we met after all of this. We met when you were already married and it was with a pharmaceutical company focused on diabetes mostly type two. And I was drawn to that because I’d been with a company before that was boutique and small, and I loved that.

And then it grew. It’s so big that I didn’t know people anymore, and I decided to go to this startup where you and I both had our jobs for a while and how you really resonated with me because not only did you bring to the company and the teams. A pure ability to be able to talk and discuss and the understanding of the science, but this history and this compassion for the patients that we would never meet, but knowing that there are people out there who could really be served and, we formed a, a bond over the years we were there.

But the other thing I really recognized about you and discussions. How you really talked about activism as well, and even a desire to go run for office. Yeah. And something like that. And that’s something that I admire so much because I’m the last person who would wanna run for office. It’s I wouldn’t want my name or face on a poster.

I wanna hide in the background, but I always felt this is somebody that I could get behind and be the backstage person for. And we’ve been friends ever since and it’s now been. 20 years, and I’m so glad that your journey to this point has been. So much of giving of yourself, but giving back to yourself as well.

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: So what is it that you see now that helps you create some solutions for other people, but what, what has been resonating and what is, and worldview is a enormous topic, but what is it that inspires you to do this coaching and what are you seeing? 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Yeah, thank you. What I’m hearing, seeing, and what I’m hearing is is very understandable.

This chronic overwhelm that people are experiencing in our day-to-day lives. And it’s not a, it’s not necessarily of our own doing. A lot of this is very systemic. And then when you add the layer of this current administration on top of it they benefit from us being overwhelmed and burned out.

We are much easier to manipulate. We are much easier to divide when we are not able to access those human qualities that are untapped in so many of us because we don’t have the, we don’t have the internal resources to be able to do that. We are stretched so thin. If we are unable to meet our needs, we can’t think about those higher needs.

And so, so many people today were thinking about like, how do we pay our rent? How do we pay our bills? How do we afford groceries? How do we fill our car tanks? That that is going to be the highest need we can worry about until it’s mapped. Having people understand the gradients of need and to help those be net so that we can have access to what is, I believe, what this moment is calling forth, which is just like a mass awakening of our human potential.

We are the solution. We are languishing, not of our own doing, but because the way our society and our cultures are constructed, and so helping people to understand themselves better, become better allies with themselves. So many of us, myself included, we can be our own worst critic, our worst enemy, and we’re really, really good at that.

I am. I’m very cognizant of how common that is for the human condition and learning how to work with ourselves with some kindness some compassion for our human experience. Can help us access parts of ourselves that are just untapped because they’re just, we don’t have the the capacity to do it right now.

So what I do as a coach is I help people, have greater clarity and to set a course. And then I help them with finding their own way because all of us have it within us. It’s a part of our human design. We have it within us. It’s just a matter of being able to access it. And so that’s the work I get to do and I love it.

Kim Allchurch Fick: And this reminds me of a conversation I had with some friends about, constant stress and some of it’s low grade stress and even though it’s acute, but the low grade meaning the consistent stress of the groceries and trying to get our work done while other things are happening, and even a headline can throw us off a bit.

And we were also talking about privilege. And right now I’m privileged that I’m probably not gonna be picked off the street by somebody because of the way I look and. Yet. I also am in a position where I hire a lot of contractors and I have chosen to hire contractors of color on many occasions, movers, landscapers plumbers, all sorts of people.

And I find that in additional low grade stress is if they don’t answer a text in 24 hours, I wonder if they’re gone. Yeah. It’s not that I would get mad that they’re not responding. It’s like, were they taken? And we were talking about that as being some of these things about the unknown and an imagination that can go rather wild.

And all of these people have been here, they’re licensed, funded, insured, register, all of the things, and yet. Even in a neighborhood where I lived, a neighbor texted us one time and said, there’s an unmarked truck in our neighborhood and we’re concerned that, 

We’re concerned about the identity of this.

So when you’re talking about all these different stressors, there are so many layers. There’s the big headland ones, which are distant, yet acute, and then there’s our daily life ones and. I wondered if you could also address this overused, couple of words, self-care and how you frame it. Because I think you frame it in a way that is so much more important than, yeah, taking a break to go to a spa, that kind of thing doesn’t really help much.

But how, for people who are doing the work, there’s this saying about the two people who were cutting trees and it’s about productivity, and two people were cutting trees and one just kept going, just hacking away and hacking away. The other one took a break, and in the end, the one who took a break ended up cutting more trees, and the question was, why?

And he said, well, during my break I fed myself and I sharpened my ax. So I was wondering if you could speak to self-care and how you look at it with your coaching and how does it keep us focused and going and fueled enough to feel like we can do what we need to do and whatever people are doing.

And this is non-partisan and yet for some people it might be. So I’m gonna leave it non-partisan, but we’ll. Many of us are either gonna hide from something that’s so scary or we want to contribute to something to make change. 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: And all of that is very human of us to want that. It’s understandable why we wanna hide and it’s understandable of why we wanna rise up.

It’s, it makes sense. And when looking at the, the marketing tool of self-care and how, it’s it’s just like a catchall for all. I have people in my life. They’re like, yeah, I had self-care. I had two glasses of wine last night. And so I understand and I appreciate the question and I think that so just laying like the groundwork for this is just like.

Looking at our human evolution and just like what we are designed for when it comes to stress and when we look at like our ancestors, w we were, we are designed for acute episodic physical stress. The saber tooth tiger would come in, we would run away, and then we would go sleep under a tree and have some berries for a few days.

We would be able to replenish ourself from that stress. The differences in the world that we’re living in today is that it’s chronic stress and it’s a psychosocial stress. It’s not physical stress often. Yes, there’s that too, but it’s a psychosocial experience and that stress level, and it’s chronic.

We don’t get, many of us, we don’t get a break from it. And if we do take a break from it, we feel like we’re not doing enough. How dare I do something for my wellbeing right now? When there’s so much that’s happening, and that’s a fallacy, we cannot sustain the movements that we are in if we are not taking care of ourselves.

And understanding also that self-care is not separate. Self flourishing is mutual and self care is taking care of each other as well. Think about like when you do something for somebody, how do you, we feel really good about that. And that kind of internal reward system is inherent to our humanity.

And so it’s working with each other to take care of ourselves and our world. And it’s a nourishing of our needs and really, in many ways, getting out of our own way because we can we can complicate things. We get stuck in our storylines and we can lose sight of the opportunity that we are in as a species, not just in this, these United States.

This is a global phenomenon that is happening right now, and we are in a threshold state. This is a bardo. This is an InBetween right now. And what has been is no longer what we’ve all known you and I grew up with is just, it’s not here anymore. It’s been demo demolished. Literally demolished.

The people’s house has been demolished by this current administration. And we have an opportunity. Now, what do we do in this in between? To be more intentional with what we create after. Do we perpetuate the systems of oppression that have led to this moment, or do we do this differently? And so at this time, what is most important is resourcing ourselves.

Resourcing each other. And healing ourselves in this planet. That is what we are designed to do as humans. We are designed to work in conjunction with this glorious planet that is a single ecosystem. It has what it needs when we work with it, not against it, and not against each other. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: Oh, amen. Thank you.

And that reminds me of Robin Dwa Kim’s books where she talks about reciprocity, not extraction and being able to know that we can live on the planet and the planet can live with us, and there’s balance if we treat it right. My next question is it is entrepreneurship and being service providers can sometimes.

Be hard to market. We are often unseen and or for just a of a few people, but there’s a lot of competition out there as well. What are some obstacles and challenges for you in this space? 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Thank you for that. Part of the challenges, you know, is people knowing who I am and what I do and feeling.

That I’m somebody to have a conversation with, that I can actually hold the space for their humanity. And like thinking like I, I started like mentoring like 25 years ago, people with diabetes. I was one of the reps that was actually meeting with the patients. And that is part of what helped me in my own healing process was wanting to be a good example.

So I’ve been doing this work. Then with coaching, it’s been 25 years that I have been embracing this this ability, which has, I think always been within me. But really be more intentional with how I use it instead of just giving it to people like my, my mother and people who I honestly, I don’t think.

Benefited or deserved what I was giving. And to be much more clear of where I’m using my gift. And I do think my coaching is a gift and my calling. And so right now it’s having people who are overwhelmed and burned out to even think that they have the space. To sit down and have a conversation with me.

It feels like it’s a nicety. It’s not a, it’s not a necessity. And I understand that framework. And yet I also know that that is not going to, often, does not lead to what we’re wanting to and we can grow towards. And that there needs to, many of us need to shift. I’ve been coaching and working in this field for a very long time, but really pivoting to working in with activists and purpose-driven people and the people who are doing the work that I wanna support.

And that’s like Timothy Snyder talks about, is having the courage to bring what we do best to the movement spaces. I’m not somebody that’s like really meant to be doing like organizational work, it’s just that’s not my strong suit. What my strong suit is, is helping people who do that work be able to be better resourced within themselves so that they can bring more of themselves to be more effective and to continue to do this work.

This is a marathon, this is not a sprint, and we have a sprinting mentality and so helping people. Slow down, take some breaths and be able to meet this moment is it’s, I get it. I understand why people don’t feel like they have time. And I also find that people who work with me realize that the time is well, well served and it helps them.

Kim Allchurch Fick: And I’m thinking about all the people that. Could probably benefit and don’t even realize it yet, but people who are already in office, people who are running for office, people who are in nonprofits, who are striving when budgets have been cut. People who are out there, activists people like me who still would like to go in, in the streets during a rally, and yet knowing that in some places we might be labeled as terrorists.

It’s gotten to that point in the where do we keep going and where do we step back and say, okay, how can we help others do this? But with that, I’d love your quote. Have the courage to do what we do best for the movement spaces. And that’s a good way to frame it, because I hadn’t really.

Considered it in that way, but I’ve always considered myself to be the backstage player. I will help people build the stage, I will help ’em their, with their lines, things of that nature. And that work is also really relevant because I really admire the people who want their faces out front. And we need those people too.

So with all of this, what makes you optimistic? 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Oh wow. Our incredible human capacity for for resilience for compassion, for being able to

just, ’cause when I talk about our human potential, it’s like, oh well we have the potential to do such harm. We also have the potential to do so much good for ourselves and each other. And it’s what are we trying to do? And I think when we are, as so many of us are right, we are in our lower brains because we, that is what is gonna benefit the current powers that be is us in a reactive state.

What we desperately need is a human response to this moment. We need to be able to have the clarity of being more intentional, and we do that by knowing what our needs are, what are not met what of my needs are, am I not able to even get to, and how can I. Make sense of this when so much of our world right now is it’s bombarding us.

It’s like gorilla warfare. We’re constantly being inundated with these messages of just fear and division and, catastrophe. That it’s going to make us very understandably, it’s gonna trigger our amygdalas and we’re gonna be in fight, flight, and freeze. As our modus operandi, and we are capable of so much more than that.

And our frontal, no, our prefrontal cortex, that is what humans can bring and it’s being able to access that. I believe that that is helpful. And so one of the things that I’m doing right now is I have a workshop that I do. Called taking radically good care of ourselves is active resistance.

It’s a two hour workshop. And I am, yes, I wanna be able to pay my bills. Yes, I wanna be able to do these things, but right now I want to also know that I have done everything I possibly can to meet this moment. And so I have I’m offering it to organizations. Whose missions I align with, they’re going to, I don’t think that people of very different political viewpoints would want to necessarily work with me.

Not that, and I wouldn’t, I am, I get to be intentional with who I help and how I help. So I have it’s on my website for organizations that they think that their team could benefit from a, a space to really unpack. See what’s going on for them as individuals and as teams so that they can better navigate this time that we’re in.

I would love to do it for Merkley’s campaign. I have an offer out to Janelle Bynum’s campaign. And I believe that, when we can access our greater humanity that we are, we’re, we are not only going to meet this moment, we’re going to show ourselves what we are capable of as a species.

And this is what this moment is calling for us to do. What is, what has been? We don’t have to continue. We can do this differently. And to do that we need to be able to think collectively. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: And that makes me optimistic, and I think you’re here on this podcast and I’m so delighted and having listened to other people’s stories, I think another thing that makes me optimistic is there’s so many people out there doing wonderful things and sometimes.

It’s this collective, it’s like a collective underground of people we haven’t seen, but they’re in their space doing their thing and knowing that there’s so many people who are doing this. And then another thing that, and my heart breaks for some of these people, but the, the people’s particularly who are out there publicly who are getting threats, who are.

Have had things happen that are scaring their families and yet they keep speaking and they keep going and you’re there to help them through that as well. That makes me optimistic. And Jane Goodall was in Portland area. She was in Salem last year shortly before she passed away. And one of the things she said among all the beautiful things about what she noticed in nature, she said regimes end.

And there’s like this collective gasp sigh from the audience. It’s like, okay, we can take that and say, okay, how and how soon and how do things change it? It’s up to us. It’s up to speaking out. So thank you for giving people the strength to do that a lot is in the show notes. How can people reach you and if you wouldn’t mind saying what your website is, but also how can people reach you and what more would you like to add?

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Thank you. So my website is TransformativeWellbeingCoaching.com. And then I have my LinkedIn profile. I have an aversion to social media. I boycotting meta. That’s one of the many things that I am embracing doing. So you’re not gonna find me on social media very much, but I do have a presence on LinkedIn.

I offer a, a free introductory session. A half hour to just see if we’re a good fit, because I’m not gonna be a great coach for everybody. There are a lot of other coaches that are phenomenal that are out there, and I know many of them. So I invite people to to meet with me and to see if there’s a synergy and to to begin or continue the journey that they’re already on.

And I also wanna just. Reflect on what you shared. There are so many people doing so much good right now, and there is such a big upwelling that is happening and that we don’t hear about it because of what bleeds leads, and to be able to shine a light on it like you did. Thank you for that because we need to know that we are not alone, that we’re incredible, and we’re just, we are the majority and we are going to.

We’re going to find our way forward. I believe in us wholeheartedly. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: That is a beautiful thing to say. Oh, thank you so very, very much. Thank you for being there. Thank you for offering people a chance to get to know you and know if it’s a good fit. I believe in that as well. It mighty measure. I can’t say I can do X, Y, Z for a company unless, and people, unless I understand where they’re coming from, because there’s so many variables in individualities.

So finding the fit is where the magic is as well. And I know you bring a lot of magic. So the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or deceased up to three other people, so you have a table of four, who would it be and who would they be and why? 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Oh. So hard to narrow it down. I, I would, so my getting sober and working and doing all that work, Buddhism has been a something that has really helped me through this journey and his holiness of Dalai Lama, who I’ve had the honor of seeing multiple times.

His way of presenting the dharma really helped me metabolize some of the critical teachings that make sense for me. And that, plus he’s just, he’s delightful. He’s got an incredible sense of humor. And I would give anything to have him and sit at a table with him. That would be absolutely yes.

And then I would love, I, so Bell Hooks is one that I just, I have such a reverence for. She found a way to really merge together. Love and activism and just her way of intersectionality and her capacity to hold the frustration of living as a woman of color, and LGBT community, just like all that she navigated and then to find love as the the salve.

I find so much wisdom from watching and reading her her works and just her own journey. I would love to have bell hooks at my table. And then my last right now it would be my beloved Aunt Sissy who we lost about it’ll be four years this this November. She was, she was the one that got me right outta the gate, and she had unconditional positive regard for me my entire life.

She she’s, she, without her, I would not still be here today. And I miss her deeply. I am so grateful to have been able to be with her in hospice and to navigate her journey at its conclusion and what a gift it was to have been there. And to have, she was, she traveled the world. She went to like 63 countries and just unlike, as a bartender, she didn’t, she did things so scrappy and was just so loved and adored by people all over the world.

And she’s one of my most, most favorite humans. So I, any chance to have her in my presence, I would give anything for. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: What a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I was also thinking when you were and I are together we talk about some heavy topics, but we laugh a lot. And when you mentioned the Dalai Lama, I remember the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu and the Pope had been together and it was on some, some news program.

They were laughing. I remember just Desmond Tutu talking about some heavy things and laughing at the right times about the right things. And the Dalai Lama was in Portland years ago, long before COVID and hearing him giggle about something and the previous Pope, and I think the one now too, that it’s a beautiful thing and that’s what you bring as well.

You very in depth. You know how to talk about some really deep issues and also bring laughter to the forefront, and you’re one of the people that makes me optimistic. 

Thank you, Kim. 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: It’s mutual. Thank 

Kim Allchurch Fick: you, my dear friend. So everyone thank you for being here. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, signing off with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and I’m at TheMightyMeasure.com.

Thank you so much for listening to Heather Beiden Jacobs a beautiful soul in our world. 

Heather Beiden Jacobs: Take care. 

Kim Allchurch Fick: Have a good day. Bye.