Making Hiring More Human: Networking, Informational Interviews, and Strategic Job Searching with Mac Prichard of Mac’s List

Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. I’m Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast here today with Mac Prichard, who’s the founder and CEO of Mac’s List. Mac’s List is a regional job board that helps people find jobs that matter and employers connect with the best candidates. Mac is the author of the books, Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and Land Your Dream Job in Portland, and is the host of the Top 40 Apple ranked weekly career advice podcast, Find Your Dream Job. Today we’re gonna talk about understand how hiring works and make the system work for you and guarantee this will bring us up to date on issues such as AI and DEI and all sorts of things in the hiring world.

Mac, it is so good to see you. Welcome.

Mac Prichard: It’s a pleasure to be on the show. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: We’ve known each other for quite a while through a variety of community groups and boards and going through employment. There was a time when I was laid off and unemployed and went to Mac’s List and really appreciated it.

So tell us, what is your journey and inspirations that have led you to this point today?

Mac Prichard: As you mentioned, I run a regional job board based in Portland, Oregon. We serve employers and candidates in Oregon and Washington State. In addition to the job board, you’ll find eight, 900 positions there in a typical month.

We provide lots of information about how to look for work and how to hire smarter. My career Kim has been in communications. I grew up in the Midwest and I, when I got out of the University of Iowa, I wanted to do three things, work in politics get paid to write and be involved in.

Human rights issues in Central America. This was in the 1980s, and by the time I was 25, I’d done all of those things. But then I had a long period of unemployment and that taught me the importance of learning, job search skills and networking. And good networkers. As you know, Kim, not only ask for help they serve others.

So in the years that followed, I’ve. Worked largely in communications. I was a speech writer for Governor of Oregon. I ran communications for the Big Dig in Boston in the 1980s. Worked for a mayoral candidate at City Hall in Portland. Was involved in nonprofit communications running programs and ran my own public relations firm for 15 years until about three years ago.

But the constant running through all these jobs was trying to make a difference about things I cared about or in make a positive difference in the community where I lived and worked. And Mac’s List allows me to do that because. There’s nothing more life changing than helping somebody find a great job or an employer find a great worker.

And it’s and so that’s what we do at Mac’s List. Our mission is to help people find work that matters and to make hiring more human. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And I love that about you. And now things, I’ve been a hiring manager as well, and the way hiring is done has changed over time quite a bit. There’s been a lot of evolution because of technology, but it’s still a very human-centric thing to do.

So I appreciate you being out there. What are you seeing and hearing in the community about hiring and. And what are the thing now with the acronyms, ai, DEI, how is it changing and how are people responding to Mac’s List and how you see the world? 

Mac Prichard: You’re right. The tools and the technology have changed.

I came into the workplace in 1980 and in those days a popular graduation gift for people coming outta college or high school was a book called What Color Is Your Parachute? And do you remember that book? It’s still out there. And I do, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah. 

Mac Prichard: Yeah. And candidly, it’s as valuable as ever. It was written by Dick Bowles, Richard Bowles in, I think it first appeared in 1970, but the reason I bring it up, Kim, is the principles that it lays out about how to find a good job.

Be clear about your goals, identify target employers connect with people who have insights into those opportunities or those organizations that can provide referrals. They all still matter today, and what has changed in the 40 plus years since I got outta college are not those principles, but the tools.

So you can, it’s very easy as anyone who’s been. On one of the global job boards like LinkedIn recently to use something called the easy apply button, and you can generate hundreds of applications. But the people who get hired and the employers who are making hiring decisions are still paying attention to those principles because.

Risk is a big factor in hiring decisions. Employers want to reduce risk, and the way they do that one way is to rely on referrals and connections. And I would challenge your audience who are listening to reflect on the best jobs they’ve ever had. And I’ll bet you a connection or a referral played a part in their learning about that job or giving them insights into what that employer needed, or to helping them prepare for an interview.

Sometimes lightning does strike you. You send out an application through a job board, and you don’t know anybody there, but you do your homework, you do the preparation, you get the job. But often in the majority of cases, a referral or connection, plays a vital part in that hiring decision.

And the good news, Kim, is you can generate those connections, you can make those referrals. But to do that you gotta pay attention to those principles that I mentioned at the start that Dick, and it wasn’t just Dick Bowles who was writing about this other career coaches and resume writers will tell you about this as well.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And I love what you said about good networkers, ask for help and offer help as well. And I think that’s part of it. ’cause there’s sometimes it, the word networking can be, it just sends a shutter through some people when it feels false and transactional. But when it’s really genuine it, it can really make a difference.

And offering help and asking help. What are you seeing as obstacles and challenges currently? 

Mac Prichard: I think the biggest obstacle and challenge for job seekers is over-reliance on technology. And also it’s not, it’s, it’s not investing in learning the job search skills that you’re gonna need throughout your career.

And let me explain those two points. And let’s start with the skills. And if you’re coming into the workforce or you’re halfway through or near the end. And in the 40 years you’re out there working you’re likely to change jobs 8, 10, 12 times. And so it’s important to learn your job search skills as early as you can.

And if you haven’t invested time in it, no, no worries. There’s no no time like the president. But when I’m talking about this skim Kim, what I have in mind is. Too many people and I did all these things early in my career, so I get it. Too many people though say, I’m keeping my options open.

Let me know if you hear of anything. And they and they sit down at a computer and they look for available jobs that might interest them or sound cool. And they think that what matters is quantity. And so they track the number of applications they send out. And it always breaks my heart when I see these news stories where people say I don’t understand.

I’ve applied for 300 jobs and I haven’t gotten an interview. Technology makes it easy to do those things. And what you gotta do is you’ve gotta have clear goals about the job you want and you gotta be able to say to people, I’m looking for in my case it would’ve been. A communications position at a large nonprofit working in these areas versus let me know if you hear of anything.

I’m doing a job search. When you’re specific, you make it easy for people to help you. You also make it easy for yourself to build a list of target employers. There. You can go on LinkedIn, which is a fine site or Mac’s List and you can find on LinkedIn thousands of places. You could work hundreds on Mac’s List.

But really, if you spend the time to get clear about what you want and what you’re negoti, your, you gotta haves are like commuting time, salary, the values of the organization, there’s, there are probably only two or three dozen employers who offer what you want. And your job when you’re doing a job search is to figure out that target list and focus on those organizations because when you have a clear goal and a short list of target employers, then Kim, you can spend your time connecting with people inside those organizations.

And it, it is called networking, but also it’s relationship building, it’s research and because when you do that, you’ll get insights into what those employers want. And you can present yourself as the problem solver who can make their life easier, and in the end, that’s what employers are hiring for.

So those three skills. Are vital. If if you want to have a shorter and easier job search, know the job you want, have a short list of target employers and invest time in going out and talking to people inside your target organizations. Now we serve job seekers at Mac’s List. We also serve employers, and many of our employers are smaller.

They have 25, 50 or fewer employees. And as you probably know, the most organizations don’t have an HR person until they have, 50 or more people so often. The organization that’s posting on our site, the person who’s doing it hasn’t been trained in hiring. And and so while we’re talking about job search, for employers, you’ve also, if you don’t have a full-time recruiter or an HR professional, you’ve also gotta to invest in hiring skills.

Because if you do that, you’ll get better candidates and you’ll also provide a much better experience for your applicants.

Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes sense to me and I’m gonna reflect back a little bit on my experience I had, I was in the corporate world for quite a while and the first company I worked for, and this is in the pharmaceuticals industry, so you know, very scientific based, but also sales. And I was so blessed to be in with a company that trained us and when.

There was growth in the company, promoted to managers. There were, quite a few of us. They actually put us through training, not just once, but annually. Refreshing and taught us how to interview because there’s this saying that people tend to hire in their own image and immediately you like somebody and say, oh that’ll be great.

That never works out very well. And really teaching about. How to be curious and unpeel the onion and really get to know someone and have situational questions where you about how would you solve a problem, what were the obstacles, what did you do about it? So it’s, I think you’re bringing up something that’s so important, being an employer and having good skills.

Helps make a better match. And it’s good for the candidate and for the employer. And doing it, two or three interviews is really important. It’s, it takes some time to get to some core things, like what are responses, what are behaviors, what does a person’s thought process how can they contribute?

And on the candidate side, it can feel really refreshing to get past some standard questions and be able to express. What somebody brings to the table. So I’m really glad you brought that up about employers and interviews too. And what do you think of inter informational interviews? 

Mac Prichard: I think they’re vital.

If you are doing a job search and an informational interview is a conversation with someone who has knowledge that is useful to you in your search, there’s a reason why you want to talk to this person. And if you don’t know what that reason might be, don’t reach out to them until you do. Often it’s a rookie mistake, and again, I’ve made it myself earlier in my career.

You reach out to people and say let’s get coffee, and you don’t have a clear purpose for the meeting. An informational interview is a, it’s a business meeting and if you’re calling it, you’re in charge, which means, you set the agenda and so you gotta walk into that room or coffee shop or zoom call knowing what it is you want to get from this conversation.

And usually Kim, it’s just one or two things. Common reasons for an informational interview. Maybe there’s somebody who has the job you want and you’re curious about how they got there and what qualifications and experiences they needed. Or maybe you wanna talk to the person who hired somebody like that to find out what informed their hiring decision so you can get insights on how to best present yourself.

Maybe you’re making a career change. You wanna get a sense of what the market pays for the positions that you want. You want advice about how to present your transferable skills to an employer. In a way that’s gonna be interesting and presentable. Maybe there’s some reason you think you can’t make this career change.

We all carry around these objections in our head about why we can’t do something. Turn them into questions and find somebody who’s made that transition and ask them about those challenges and how they would advise you to address them. Those are all great reasons to have informational interviews.

And I would say that a good informational interview. Kim has three parts and you can do all this in 20 to 30 minutes. First, you introduce yourself and your goals. Second, there’s you talk about the two or three questions that you have for this person. It could be three to five. And then the third part is you ask for suggestions about other people that, that might be helpful and you can do all three of those things in in 30 minutes or less.

And when you end that call or leave that coffee shop or bring that meeting to a close if you’ve accomplished those three things, that’s a successful meeting. And I think sometimes people struggle with informational interviews because they’re not sure what to ask for and what success looks like, and they think, oh, somebody should open a drawer and take out a job and say you should apply for this, or, yeah.

And, it’s really again, a good job search is like a research project. You’re trying to find the place that offers what you want, where you can thrive, and so you can focus your energy on building connections and relationships inside that organization rather than just applying to everything you see online.

That sounds interesting. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s such good points about it because the other thing is the assumption that, oh, somebody would be too busy. Why would they wanna talk to me? But giving those reasons upfront can, yeah, can create a really strong relationship. 

Mac Prichard: It can. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And I also have a thought about, because you and I are in the world of social enterprise a lot in community with a lot of the organizations that have strong values in companies that are values driven.

And what do you think about employees or people who are looking for jobs with companies that have good values or are benefit corporations? Do you have any thoughts for them about how do you search for the company by values as well as opportunities and what the actual work might be? 

Mac Prichard: When you’re building that list of target employers let’s step back.

When you’re starting your search, I think your values are central to the figuring out where you want to go next. And and there are other factors too. Salary, commute time flexibility in schedule opportunities for growth. Values need to be part of that mix. You don’t have to leave your values at the door when you’re doing a job search.

So you should consider all those factors in. Helping you build that that list of target employers and and then look for those organizations. And there, we can talk about tactical ways to do that. You can find in certainly in Oregon and any state there’s usually a business magazine that serves a state or a city, and they’ll publish lists of.

Top green employers or mission-driven employers or top nonprofits and you, and those can be great resources for, and you can find similar lists online. And as you do your information interviews, you can ask people for, tell them what you’re looking for and ask for suggestions about places that offer what you want and as whatever your tar your goals might be.

The universe is probably not gonna be that big Kim. You’re probably only gonna be 25, 50 employers that offer what you want, whatever you’ve put on your list. And that’s good news because it allows you, again, to focus your search in a strategic way that will allow you to build the connections and referrals you need, that matter so much in hiring decisions.

Kim Allchurch Flick: I think you said something really key. A narrower search list. It’s can be really important for your sanity too, because I think sometimes, like I’ve been laid off and know a lot of people who have been, or who are searching and there’s a franticness to it sometimes and just trying to find as much as possible and that just creates more stress.

And what you’re saying makes such a key way for somebody to be able to take a breath, calm down and say, yes, I can guide this. I don’t have to throw spaghetti against a wall and see what sticks, but actually be able to. To hone the search in a way that might make them feel more encouraged as well.

And there’s a lot to that. Less is 

Mac Prichard: more. Yeah. Success is not sending out hundreds of applications and sometimes we have bills to pay. Our unemployment can run out. I went through two long periods of unemployment and I cashed the last unemployment check once and came within one check of doing it a second time.

And so sometimes you have to take paycheck jobs. These can be temporary positions, staffing agencies, and that’s okay. There’s a dignity that comes from work and from working and paying your bills, but it is very important to get clear about what you want and focus on that rather than focus on sending out lots and lots of applications.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And what are you seeing particularly now with people over 50 and people of color are, what are you seeing as the challenges in that group now? ’cause they’ve always had some challenges, but considering ai considering it’s 2026, what’s your viewpoint? 

Mac Prichard: Ageism is real. And the unemployment rate for blacks is just to name one.

Minority group has always historically been higher than for whites. No matter what the overall unemployment rate might be. I think. If you are in a group like that, it becomes even more important to be strategic and focused in your search and to turn to your connections and your relationships and to build those ties as you look for work because again, employers rely on referrals in order to reduce risk. And if you, and that’s one of the ways hiring works. And so if you understand how the system works, you can make it work for you. You ageism and discrimination and hiring based on race is both are illegal but candidly both happen every day.

So you can, what you gotta focus on, what you can control. And you if you’re an older candidate, think about how you’re presenting yourself and you’re both online and in person. And you can find lots of tips about how to do this online. And if you’re so look, get educated about how to do that well, and it will help you.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, it’s, you’ve got such great insight and I really appreciate that. ’cause things are changing for people and yet what you’re bringing back to this is the human nature of seeking a job is still human to human, even though right now. Some people are being interviewed by non-humans that’s bought interviews.

There was a thing on NPRA couple of months ago on Point is one of the programs and they talked in depth for an hour about Yeah. People’s interview experience with and never being able to reach a human in the process. So I love what you’re saying about the three points of getting back into the people part of it.

Mac Prichard: I also hear from recruiters and HR directors that candidates who are being interviewed are using AI to generate answers. Don’t do that. If you’re doing a job search, because people hire other people and and you gotta be yourself and you gotta focus on the organizations and the opportunities that you want.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah I think the humanity’s still there. What makes you optimistic? 

Mac Prichard: Hiring happens every day in, in the world of employment. And the people who invest in job search skills, learning them well have shorter and easier searches and more rewarding careers. I think globally, I think the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago.

There’s a lot that’s wrong, but recently Kim I heard Nick Christoff, the New York Times column. Speak here in Oregon. And he acknowledged that there, there’s many reasons to be worried about the world, but looking at things like the global poverty rate literacy rate wealth among women.

There has been significant change in the last 50 years. So I think also I’m in a history book club. We read a different book every month, and the more I know about history, I’m not whitewashing what’s happening today, the more optimistic it makes me because we’ve there are times when things have been really bad and and overall.

Slowly. I think we are seeing improvement. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: So you and I are both in Oregon and Nick Christophe is originally from Oregon and both we share of a fandom with, of Nick Christophe. I think he’s got a lot to say as well, so thanks for bringing that up and history. We’ll have to sit and have a coffee and talk about History book sometime because I see history as, and people are getting to the point where his, some historians write books.

Of true history, like they’re novels. It’s like they’re page turners and they’re so interesting. But I also think knowing history gives us pattern recognition and the ability to anticipate and perhaps solve problems before they happen. And not knowing history and not knowing patterns means where it’s surprised by something is looking like it’s new, but it isn’t.

Humanity has traveled some roads like this before. There’s similarities. Yeah. It’s so interesting. Is there anything else you’d like to share with people? 

Mac Prichard: I would say if you’re doing a job search, don’t wait to be picked. If you know the place you wanna work and the job you want, reach out to those organizations or talk to the people who are doing that work. Too often Kim, I meet people who tell me they’re interested in working in a particular organization, which is wonderful. And I’ll say who are you talking to over there? And I say I don’t know anyone. But I look at the careers page every day and that’s good.

You should look at the website and the careers page, and it’s good that you have a target. But there’s nothing stopping you from going to LinkedIn or your alumni database if you went to a community college or university and finding people or just asking your friends and family if they know anyone inside that organization and start connecting and building relationships with people on the inside because.

I would add challenge your listeners to, to reflect. Many of them I know have been involved in hiring decisions. They’ve probably been tasked with going through a tall stack of resumes, and they’ll get 50, a hundred. These days with the easy apply button, it can be several hundred or even a thousand.

If, and I think many of the people listening to this show who have been in that situation can recall getting a text or a call or an email from someone saying, Hey, my friend Kim applied for that job. You should take a look at her resume or her application. That’s not gonna get you the job, or maybe even a formal interview, but it will get your application pulled out of the pile.

And it’ll get more attention than the seven seconds Research shows. Most recruiters look at a resume. Don’t wait to be picked. If you know where you want to go and what you want, start building connections and relationships now. And I would say to employers because we’re talking about the hiring system, remember that hiring is a brand experience.

For can. And so everybody who applies for your position is gonna think about that experience. And I’m always shocked, Kim by employers who haven’t set up automated systems to acknowledge receipt of a resume or an application. It’s not that hard and nobody likes to hear no, but everybody likes resolution, so it’s better to send out a short professional email saying, we got your application.

Appreciate your time and effort, but we’re gonna move ahead with other candidates. Thank you. Rather than not say anything. And I’m always shocked by the employers who invite people into the process for a phone screener, an in-person interview, and then never get back to the candidate. Why would you do that?

Every everybody who has that experience is gonna talk about it, and that’s not good for, first of all, it’s not right. It’s not a professional thing to do, but it’s also not good for your brand as a, an employer. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, as someone who’s been a job seeker, I so agree and thank you for bringing that up. It’s resolution does matter.

Being ghosted is. Does not feel great. 

Mac Prichard: It doesn’t, and I know you’ve been an employer. I’ve hired my share of people at Mac’s List and my other company and I’ve tried and I’ve followed, worked hard to follow my own advice. And I’m not tooting my own horn here, but I know that em, I’m sure that employers who follow good practices have heard from candidates.

I actually call people to tell them we’re not moving ahead with her. You know who I’ve interviewed. And they’ll say, oh, and there’s always disappointment, but often people will say thank you for letting me know. And so I know that there’s disappointment, but they will know that you’ve treated them with professionalism and respect, and that’s gonna create in the long run goodwill for your company.

And it’s also, and the reason you should do it is it’s the right thing to do, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: right. And the human thing to do. And it also, it’s an opportunity for the employer and the candidate too, to say. But is there an opportunity at another time for a different opportunity? And sometimes that helps create a lead for something new.

And I’ve seen that happen just because the discussion wasn’t that they weren’t a great candidate for the position, but there’s only one position. Somebody else filled it, but there’s still opportunity in the future perhaps, and to keep that door open and it’s a good thing for the company to do too.

So I’m really glad you brought that up. 

Mac Prichard: Yeah, absolutely. And every place is a small town, so whatever your occupation or sector or field, the odds are good that at the next professional association or the conference, you’re gonna see those people. Again, it’s the right thing to do but you also, it’s a great way to avoid the awkwardness of seeing somebody you ghosted.

And why would you do that? Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, it’s so important. What can people do for you and for Mac’s List and how can people reach you? 

Mac Prichard: Visit our website Mac’s List.org. You’ll find eight to 900 jobs in Oregon and Washington there, and there are some remote positions, but most are hybrid or in person.

We also provide lots of content about how to look for work and how to hire smarter. We have hundreds of articles on both topics. And we as you mentioned at the top of the show I host a weekly career advice podcast, find Your Dream Job. We’ve been doing it for 10 years, so we’ll find lots of practical advice about how to find your next position.

And if you’re in Portland, we, we did resume our in-person events in 2025. We do four a year. And you can learn more about those events. HA two, two of the four are for job seekers, two are for employers by visiting our website. And please connect with me on LinkedIn. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, you are great on LinkedIn too.

I see you there frequently. And the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone up to three other people for a table of four living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

Mac Prichard: It’s an interesting question. I worked in politics for a long time, so one of my political heroes is Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

I would love to have had the opportunity to talk to him. That would be, he was so good at what he did. I think growing up my grandfather’s house was filled with all these Japanese antiques that his d his dad brought back from Japan in the 1870s and eighties. I’d love to talk to my great-grandfather to hear the story behind those objects.

And I have a great passion for silent film. He’s an actress, Louise Brooks who was. A star in the twenties and was at the center of everything for a little while. And it would be great to hear her stories 

Kim Allchurch Flick: all first. I What a great list. It’s so interesting. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And we’ll sign off now.

This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure. Thank you all and have a great day.