Human-First Operations in Business with Maxine Markovitz, MBA Candidate and B Impact Project Lead

Kim Allchurch Flick: Welcome everyone. I’m Kim Allchurch Flick. Here today with Maxine Markovitz, an MBA student in Portland State University with a background in operations, change enablement and project management. They’re a project lead for B impact program that helps businesses in the Portland area work toward B Corps certification.

Maxine’s experience spans industries from labor planning at Amazon to project management at A to Z wine works. That, by the way, is, I believe, the first B Corps winery in the country. They care about human first values, forward approaches, and translate into practical business decisions. So we’re here to talk about what it means to be human first in operations.

Welcome, Maxine. So happy to have you here. 

Maxine Markovitz: Thanks Kim. I’m happy to be here. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: So what we have in common, we discovered at the 2025 B Local PDX build conference is that I was in the same program that you are currently in. I was in the PSU certificate program called the Business of Social Enterprise in 2013, and also did a B Corps certification with a winery, and we just had.

Found that a, it’s so great that even though the program has evolved quite a bit, that it continues. So kudos to PSU and I’m happy to have you here. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, happy to be here. And 2025 now going into 2026, PSUs social impact is still going strong. It’s nice to see, especially in the Portland community.

That long term community building through PSU for, social impact. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Isn’t that wonderful? Tell us about your journey and particularly the spanning of industry from labor planning at Amazon to what you’re doing now. That’s broad. And what is labor planning and what has been your journey to also looking at life through a social impact lens.

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, so I’m gonna start back March of 2020, which a lot of us remember very fondly. That’s when I moved out to Portland actually. So moved out here at the start of the pandemic and was, looking for work. And at the start of the pandemic, I ended up. Working at a startup company trying to deliver directly from farmers to people in in their homes.

Farm to table kind of style. And so yeah, just started develop. It was an essential industry at the time. The goal was 70% to the farmer versus, six or 7% at the grocery store. It’s like, okay, I like this operations thing. After that went to UPS and operations again. Then to a to Z wine Works where I was a project specialist.

It’s the first B Corp that I worked at, and it was just, really cool to see the mission alignment running through, every part. Of the business and just the connection to land there. And then last two years I was at Amazon. So doing labor planning, which, there’s a huge number of humans that are working at those Amazon sites.

The shift I was on had up to 700 people. So being, human centric, especially at a company like Amazon I realized pretty quickly nothing gets done if you don’t, treat people well and understand. How do you build relationships, with people. So, finished my undergraduate degree in 2023.

Also at PSU. And now doubling down. I’m a MBA candidate at PSU again and working with net impact at PSU to help get local companies in the Portland area B Corps certified. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s fantastic. And could you dial back a little bit about it? It almost seems polar opposite to be with A to Z, which is fairly large.

Yeah. It’s a large winery, but not nearly as big as Amazon. And what how did you feel about that dichotomy and how did you observe both and what were some of the good, the bad, and the ugly of those experiences? 

Maxine Markovitz: Yes, and the beautiful. So two completely very different industry models.

We’ll start there. Wine is connected to land. It’s connected to people and there’s a lot of art, art and pride in the wine industry. It’s a little bit on the slower moving side compared to say, a company like Amazon where. Rollout changes, every two days. I learned from both and, at Amazon it was challenging to stay, people focused and really feel connected to the work that I was doing with the community.

But at the same time. The ability to have influence over so many people’s lives. Doing planning for 700 people, even if the role that I play in their lives is just so small, maybe all I do is I wave and I say hi or just smile at them or help them with what they’re going through.

That was really meaningful for me. I think long term, I liked the fast moving, learning part of it, but I want to be a little bit more connected to, community and making long-term change in a positive way. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so fantastic. And what has been your experience so far with, currently with the PSU program and net impact?

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. So I have a. I’ve probably told you this, I have a soft spot in my heart for PSU. Yeah. Just since I started classes back in 2020 to finish my undergraduate degree yeah. My experience with PSU, I really like that the school encourages non-traditional students. So just, the academics are very good and the, like the community.

I’ve gotten to meet people I never would have met before. Working in nonprofits, working in government, working in, dental technology, manufacturing a friend of mine will, and just getting to meet all of these people in the Portland community has been so, like, through PSU has really helped me understand, how important that community is for.

Not only just your career, but also like your, your value forming as a person. At for net impact. It’s cool for me to see a lot of these, ’cause even at A to Z. It’s a big company, comparatively for a B Corps, right? Cam one of the bigger B Corps. I believe it is.

Yeah. And so to see these, companies with, 1, 5, 10 employees who want to make, this positive change and to see that process has been really cool for me. Just to see all of the people. Who, you know through what, the business school students can, provide a lot of that the technical work and organization for that.

But to see that a lot of people in the community have those values, that are so important to like, making our future better. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so impressive. And it’s so much fun and you’re in the cutting edge because it’s crossing academia with. Being out in the community. And so far, how many B Corps certifications have you done and what has been your impression so far?

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah I joined this year and we’re actually just starting out okay. For 2026. We have three companies we’re working with and our goal in the summer. Finding and networking with folks to find companies to work with. And now January with the start of the winter term kickoff and begin that certification process by by the spring. Yeah. I’ve just been very impressed with people’s commitment to doing the right thing, it’s. It’s been very heartening for me to see, just the, people in the community that want to drive like positive, impact and willingness to work with, pSU been very cool 

Kim Allchurch Flick: in Indeed. And what I remember telling you when I met you earlier at Build was that I loved the program so much in 2013. I created my company Mighty Appify Consulting because I enjoyed that work so much and have continued doing it, and it’s so great to see students still doing it and seeing you still doing that and you’re on a cutting edge that is going to affect everyone in the B Corps community.

And that is the transition from version six of the B Lab assessment to the new standards. Which are quite different. And I wanna also reflect back on the Amazon a bit and thinking across the country there’s the pillars are similar but different and deeper in the new standards. And one of, one of the things that they will focus on is fair wage.

And I was wondering what, how do you view things like that? Have you had any previews of the new standards? And when you think about Amazon and Wage and then working with B Corps and wages and equity and things of that nature what strikes you about moving forward in 2026 and beyond? 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. So first of all, Kim, if you’re okay with it, I, you just recently completed the new E Corp assessment.

Yes. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: No, I re-certified in version six because it was still in 2025. So I recertified in November actually started it in the beginning of 2025 and it’s been a long process for. A while it is becoming shortened for a variety of reasons. And so my next recertification will be version six.

But in, in my work, because I am a B certified consultant, I and many people across the country were part of feedback sessions when B Lab was. In the initial phases of building those new standards. So they give us draft versions, we give feedback. So I’ve been aware of it for over two and a half years, and I’d still go to a lot of classes through B Lab to continue cycling through and classes on portions of it, like the equity portion environment portion, things of that nature.

So I’m aware of it, but have not yet done that for myself. 

Maxine Markovitz: Gotcha. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: But it’s coming up it for everyone. It’ll be 2026 is the year that if anyone’s doing a certification or recertification in 2026, after I believe January, February, it will probably be the new standards. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that background.

Yeah, so your original question was about the new standards and a living wage. Correct. I so there are, hundreds of millions of people, in this country. And I think just, I know this is, a bit systemic, broadly, I don’t think we’re doing a very good job of looking after those people to provide that living wage and provide people with, the stability they need to.

Find kind of that comfort and community in their life once you have those kind of basic needs met. Some of the good of Amazon before I talk about, some of the challenges, the good is, to find an employer that gives you good benefits gives you time time off and the ability to pay for school, but.

On the other hand, we’re working without these, roles that are really anchoring our, people to community and providing like long-term ability to develop, like skills in the workforce that, help people grow and provide for their families, I think 

From that standpoint.

It’s really important if you want to be an equitable, company forget AI and forget, all this technology. You’re responsible for the people who you know, work with you and work for you or are in your community. And, by providing that wage. And it’s not just the wage, it’s the ability to grow, right.

People want skills. And if you can provide them with skills and the future and the way to, take care of their families and, their education and their bodies, that’s, something I think we need to be much more focused on as like a community. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s beautifully stated. And how are you seeing that play out as you’re out and about in the community?

Maxine Markovitz: You know, I see, a lot of people are calling this a khap economy. 

And, I see people on the extreme end of, very high income doing really well, and I see people falling below that part of the k kind of getting squeezed in a way that it’s it’s hard to see where a lot of folks doing, necessary jobs or trade jobs.

We don’t have a lot of the things like, union representation that we need to protect, workers and that mobility of just, people to get a good job in their community, stay in their community and grow. I don’t really see that being prioritized because people are prioritizing, technology and advancement without understanding that.

If you don’t focus on the people in the community, the technology may sustain us for a while, but it doesn’t look after like the actual responsibility of being a person in a position of power who should look after, the people, the responsible for. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s profound and I think important. And looking forward, how do you also view.

As a, an MBA candidate and academia. The Portland State, granted, I think has very mission-driven instructors as well and professors, but MBAs often focus on what makes business strong, profitable pivots, exits, things of that nature. And more. And yet the social enterprise portion that you’re also in with net impact.

And do you see, where do you see those aligning and where do you see them doing? What you said before is that split where profit is the most important and the purpose and planet part may not be as strong if they’re at all. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. That’s a good question. And. We’re living in a system where the rules favor the accumulation of wealth, right?

So the adage, no money, no mission, right? In the B Corp space, which is you have to make a profit and build resiliency to keep your business, stable and protect the people that you work for. Then on the other extreme is, this is not my responsibility. Somebody else will take care of this problem.

My responsibility is to my shareholders. And I try to see a lot of the nuance in that where, you, unfortunately, the system is set up in a way where businesses have to run a certain way to make. Money and be survive, no matter how mission aligned, if you can’t fund the business, it won’t operate.

But somewhere in there is that room to realize I’m responsible for my impact in the business environment. And my impact in the community. And that kind of critical thinking to realize that, the decisions we make. Impact what happens, especially for people, right?

There’s an enormous amount of privilege to go to an MBA program, right? That’s a master’s degree. It’s a very highly skilled, set of knowledge that’s organized, primarily to, to run due strategy and, processes for businesses. How do you take that? One of the things I think about is how do I take that and say, I also need to be able to provide for myself, and I’m responsible for, the privilege that I have to get this education, and what I can do with the cap, the social capital that I get from my, knowledge and my working experience, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: what to do with the social capital.

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: How do you feel about that looking at your future? 

Maxine Markovitz: It is honestly a hard question. So it’s a newer question. I’m grappling with, in the last few years I didn’t have a college degree until I turned 26. So I finished college one class at a time, working, full-time.

And so this is now a newer. Problem. I wouldn’t say a problem, maybe. Maybe an opportunity to be, positive a newer opportunity for me to think, okay, I’m in this position now where I’m very soon going to have this, degree where I can make a lot of change. And it’s something honestly I’m still thinking about as I decide what role I want next for.

Working, where I want to contribute in my community. So I don’t think I have a good answer as much as it’s something that, I’m thinking about now that I know is important and it’s, it takes a lot of time to really understand your place in that. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. Do you think through time with your experience now with Net impact and your experience with Amazon, that you have an intuitive sense of what a company’s values are?

Mission and whether you would want to be with a company or create your own? 

Maxine Markovitz: I think I’d like to be with a company. Working for a company. Just from a personal standpoint, the stability is really helpful, at least for right now, while, building my, life and really trying to figure out my place in that.

And I think every, role that I’ve had has, taught me a little bit more about where I want to be. So I don’t think I’ve ever gotten it. Right. But I think I learned a little bit from, each one and my, my question now is how do I take the things that I like and that I’m, good at?

I’m a strong, analytical thinker. I like to solve, big problems and how do I find companies that, you know. Because I, I don’t know if there’s any way to perfectly, exist with the way our world is set up, but find a company. I can say, look, I can sleep well at night knowing what I’m doing.

I feel like the thing that we’re producing or what we’re doing or how we’re treating people is meaningful and, go from there. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. I think what always drives me and is stuck with me for a few years since I read it, is Nielsen reports, and a couple of statistics stand out.

One, I believe it’s from 2014, was basically that two thirds of consumers globally are willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company has good values. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And then another study with millennials said that same question was about 73%. So the consumer base B2B and B2C. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Large part is looking, and my question has always been, okay, companies, how are they going to find you and what are the ways?

And so it seems as though there’s this broad spectrum of things that can be true and opposing and connected all at once. And there are some companies that. Say things, make claims, but aren’t doing good things for the world. There’s some that are trying to get by and do the very best they can, but there are obstacles and sometimes it’s just impossibly hard to pay a lot of people more than the living wage if the revenue isn’t great.

Yeah, and there’s some things like tariffs that are coming in that have been reality bites in 2025. For companies, even though their mission and values are very strong. And then on the other end of that spectrum, there are groups of innovators that are innovating for making the world a better place.

And it can be through medicine, manufacturing, agriculture. There’s movements for land healing and regeneration. There’s movements for. Better technology for energy. I read a book called, here Comes The Sun by Bill McKibbon, talking about how China is leapfrogging everyone in terms of solar. And even though yes, they’re polluted and they have a history and they have a coal history, they’re rapid acceleration forward thinking, it’s solar, that they wanna put solar panels everywhere and make them so accessible that people will be able to.

Put solar panels on a railing of a deck and it’ll help make coffee. The innovation part is, seems like it’s on the other side, and granted there can be nefarious innovations as well, but people doing innovations as a way to solve a problem and heal the world seems, gives optimism. Me at least. And I’m wondering what are you seeing, because you’re still in this cross hairs of good cross hairs of academia and the world, and you’ve also been in your past around policy makers.

How does it look for you with those things in mind? 

Maxine Markovitz: That’s a good question and I appreciate you bringing up that people will pay more. It’s helpful as a reminder, people want. A way to, make positive change or know what they’re doing, is bringing positive change.

And no I’m pausing for a second, but I’m trying to, it’s, I see we’re on this, on the edge of a lot of changes in our 

Yeah. 

In, in the US right. And globally like the acceleration of. Climate change, but also the acceleration of a lot of you know what? Energy is the cheapest energy now it’s solar, wind is cheaper.

Now we have all of these, on the innovation side, it’s finding, that mission or the focus of, maybe you take just a little bit less on the profit side just a little bit less, maybe that’s not the only thing we focus on, and we broaden that scope out to make sure that, what we’re doing has the positive impact for, people and communities. There’s a, give you an example. There’s a community solar project in the Cully neighborhood. Shout out to Verde. They’re a great company. I have a friend who works there. And they’re making solar accessible to everybody in the community. You all pool in so you don’t have to lower income community.

Everybody gets access to solar and that’s. Innovation and how are we, getting resources to people. But I think, we have the innovation side figured out. 

Clearly that’s, the US has been on the forefront of innovation for a long time, but I think one of the ways that this, the country is really lacking is the long-term planning for, human.

Impact. 

And I do see innovation happening in a positive way, but not in the kind of cohesive, connected way that I think, we have the potential to really do. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I hope listeners are really pondering that statement, because therein lies something that’s truly important. And I do think there are innovators who are trying on that piece as well.

And I’ll reference Rebecca Dre, who I think is just a genius visionary who created a nonprofit called Purchasing With Purpose to create a network and of networks, a web of mission-driven companies that can seek and work with each other, including things that we often don’t think about in the B Corps world, but should be players as well as logistics.

Shipping companies, where are we gonna get our packaging? All of these areas. And in each of those, it is intriguing to see innovations popping up and it gives me some optimism. Like one of our local companies, chocolates spelled with a dash e has found packaging that is zero plastic. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, exactly.

Where did they find 

Kim Allchurch Flick: it? They’re working with innovators and. 10, 15 years ago, some of those didn’t exist. So we, people had to work with what they had and as the innovations pop up and it gives us more choice, that’s more to be supported. So I really, really appreciate the innovations to come that aren’t here yet, but also those that are and embracing them, and sometimes it becomes a cost barrier.

Sometimes, but sometimes perhaps not. And I love your way of framing everything because it’s so pragmatic. You also mentioned that you would like to work with an established company, and you strike me as somebody who’s also very caring and innovative. And a friend of mine wrote a book, Louis Gump wrote the Insight Innovator.

And it’s a beautiful way of thinking about entrepreneurship, how to be within a company, but also be mission-driven social enterprise within what do you think about that? 

Maxine Markovitz: I think everywhere that we go, we make change everywhere. So every company we’re in, every role we’re in, we’re making change with just with the people that we, you know.

Talk, talk to, and what we do in our work, I am a very, you’re absolutely right, I’m a very by nature very practical, pragmatic person. And I try to say, okay, even if I’m only, interacting with, two coworkers in this organization, how do we make this a little bit more equitable from this, level?

And it’s, a lot of these like big, systematic changes for organizations can start with just little, little changes with, how people relate to each other and how seriously they take, their responsibility in their, in either, if you’re in one little part of an org, you can kind of spread out or almost trickle out that.

Positivity or that community focus. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna take you read that book. I’ll let you know. I’m very excited on that. Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And what also do you think about and this is dabbling on a hot topic from 2025. Yeah. And three, three little letters that have been pretty much banished, but in, in terms of really creating.

Community within workplaces that is open to everyone. And that in across spectrums that words inclusion might be one of them. And I’m purposely dancing across the words because the people that do the work are also saying it. It was never about three letters. It’s about what is the humanity. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah.

Of 

Kim Allchurch Flick: being in a workplace and making a living and providing, and contributing. So I was wondering what are you seeing, what discussions are in academia and what are you seeing out in the world around people being able to bring their whole selves to a workplace and be able to contribute in the workplace also being accepting?

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, that’s a good question. If everybody were like me, the world would be a bad place. If everybody were the same, the world would be a bad place. I think, having a lot of different kinds of people in the world with different kinds of, ways of looking at things. I mean, that’s a tremend. Even if you just wanna look at it from like a business standpoint, ignoring the fact that, these people are your neighbors and people, just you have a human right to care about, as another sentient being on this planet.

But even from a business perspective, diversity makes things so much better. You get different types of ideas, you get new ways of thinking, you get new ways of. Problem solving. And if we come to viewing, prosperity or community as something that’s fixed, I think that’s where you start to lose.

It’s not, a fixed pie. When somebody, when my neighbor does better, I do better. Right. When I bring somebody else into an organization who comes from a different background, I have a better. I have a better time. I get to learn and, it’s just so crazy to me how, terrified we’ve become of people who are, different in the, one of the things I really like about the Portland State community particularly in the MBA program is you get a lot of people who are coming from different. Backgrounds. And that for me makes the program so much more rich and so much more interesting than just, you lose a lot of the Yeah.

Texture of life when everybody just is the same. And I know there’s a huge engine we could go off on, on a lot of, what’s going on. Politically right now, but just to keep it, try to I try as hard as I can to be positive. You’re not losing anything by, supporting somebody else.

Your life doesn’t get any worse if somebody else’s gets better, just we can just, we can all be nice. It helps. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. Oh, and I remember when I took the certificate in 2013, I was also in what doesn’t exist anymore, but it was Portland State’s Masters of International Management. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And that was created to be more than 50% students from overseas.

And it was incredible. But the other dynamic that was there was because I’d had a corporate career and had been laid off and decided I’d like to carve out something new. The other thing is I was an outlier because there was only maybe three of us who were over like 35. And yeah, so it, so there’s also this thing about diversity of thought, generational diversity and inclusion across all these different spectrums and with these people from different countries.

And it, to me, that was a highlight as well, being in a room. Such an array of backgrounds. It’s just incredible. And then to add the social enterprise certificate on top of that, I really am grateful to PSU for and I’m like a lot of people that have been in corporate careers and have been laid off.

It’s like, what do you do next? A lot of people start to create their own. Company, they still have something to give them and wanna work with. And I found PSU was really supportive of that. 

And I also wanna give you the appreciation that one of the things I noticed when we met is you gave me a lot of grace as well about generational diversity and a feeling that.

My ideas are welcome. Your ideas are welcome. And that also is something I feel that we can really learn from ancestry, from experience, from innovators, from new thoughts, from a variety of things that swirl into this pool of how can we communicate together and create community and do better and do good things 

Maxine Markovitz: well, that’s, and you 

Kim Allchurch Flick: that.

Maxine Markovitz: Thank you, Kim. I appreciate that and I feel the same to you. I appreciate you, talking to me and, listening to my perspective. Humans are meant to be in community, right? Yes. We’re meant to live multi-generationally. We’re meant to think, generations past to generations future, and, no.

One of us is, an island. Don’t blame the person before you, talk to them. Don’t blame the person after you, talk to them. And I think it’s, it’s great a to be one of those voices, like you were saying when you were in the program, of one of the older students to, you, we all have different perspectives and things that make us, valuable.

To realize that and to find people that are, interested in, exploring that with us is, is beautiful. Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. Thank you so much. So what gives you optimism? 

Maxine Markovitz: What gives me optimism? I think what gives me optimism is knowing that. What people are capable of when we really come together to make things better.

In my undergrad, I was a history major, so we’re, I’m looking all the way, all the way back, right? 

And 

you see these periods where things get bad, and then things get good, and then things get bad. And then they get good and, we come together and we fall apart, and we come together and we fall apart.

But realizing when, you know what? We’re capable of in, community. I look back at, for example, like post world Wari when income inequality was at its lowest in the country and people were, buying houses and the economy was growing and, there’s a lot of problems Right.

In that time. But just looking at that kind of arc of history. And, seeing what we can do, and how even in a decade, we can say, oh, well that was pretty crazy. I’m not sure. I’m not sure why we did all this. And 

Really make like positive change come together, realize that we’re all part of this, human equation and that.

The people, we have everything we need. We just need to come together. There’s enough good people trying to do the right thing, and sooner or later, I’m hoping we’ll get it back on track. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh I appreciate that and I am thinking we need a second podcast with you to talk about the importance of history because Yeah I find.

I’ve kind of always been this way, but more recently because there’s more authors writing incredible books that are like novels, but they’re true history and how the importance of history because it helps us anticipate what might be happening. And I see that resonating now. So we’ll have to come back and talk about that because that’s a big topic, but Absolutely.

You know, reading a book about what happened in Teddy Roosevelt’s time and they’re using the same words that are being used now. It’s like this is a mirrored 130 years later. We need to know to anticipate, to be able to respond. So let’s bookmark that for a future one, because sounds like do history sounds like a plan.

Think history matters. Indeed. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, absolutely. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: How can people get ahold of you? And this will also be in the show notes, but we want people to know you’re out there, business owners, and so that you can find, help, find your way in the future. Yeah. How can we get ahold of you if you’d like? 

Maxine Markovitz: Thanks, Kim. I appreciate that.

Yeah. You can connect with me on uh, LinkedIn. My name is Maxine Markovitz.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Fantastic. Is there anything else you’d like to add before the final question? 

Maxine Markovitz: I just wanna say, thanks Kim. I appreciate you taking the time to do this.

I think now now more than ever, we need, people like you doing this kind of work. Appreciate you taking the time and having a good time, and thank you. Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you as a voice of the future as well, because you’re on the cutting edge of the education part and you have some deep experience, so I think the future is bright.

The next question, final one, is if you could have dinner with anyone living or dead up to a table of four that includes you, who would they be? 

Maxine Markovitz: I think number one I would pick Octavia Butler. Octavia Butler is one of, Kim. Do you know Octavia Butler? 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I do, yes. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, so Octavia Butler is my number one.

Not personally, but I know. But for the audience, if you don’t know please, I highly recommend read Octavia Butler’s work, Afro futurism. And her work as one of these seminal black sci-fi authors talking not just about our connection to the past, but our relationship to the future, across continents, across cultures.

Just such a beautiful and very interesting mind. My second choice is Judith Butler. One of the philosophers behind post-structural feminism created a lot of the discourse that we have now on identity formation and gender differences. As a non-binary person really was one of the people that helped form a lot of my thinking.

On my identity number three is a little bit of a wild card. It’s gonna be, I’d say David Bowie, just such, just so cool. I don’t know if I have, a deep seated reason for that one, but just, oh my gosh, the, the music such a beautiful, human and I would just love to hear.

What he has to say. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, what a beautiful ending. I’m gonna ponder that. I wrote them down, 

Maxine Markovitz: but 

Kim Allchurch Flick: yes. David Bowie, someone whose artistry lives on. 

Maxine Markovitz: Yeah, well 

Kim Allchurch Flick: said. 

Maxine, thank you so much. I’m so appreciative. 

Maxine Markovitz: thank you, Kim.