Building Healthy, Inclusive Cultures Without Burning Out with Mikaela Kiner of Reverb

Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with Mighty Measure Podcast and I’m delighted to be here today with Mikaela Kiner of Reverb. Mikaela is founder, CEO and leadership coach. Her company Reverb helps organizations create healthy inclusive cultures. Prior to reverb, Mikaela held HR roles at Northwest Companies, including Microsoft, Starbucks, and Amazon.

She enjoys coaching leaders at all levels and working with mission-driven organizations. Mikaela, welcome. Thanks so much for having me, Kim, and thanks for doing this podcast. Thank you. We met because we’re both founders of B Corps companies and we met through what’s called the Beehive, and I’m so delighted for that.

And it’s great to have you on as a B Corps company. We’re recording in March, 2026, which is B Corps month. So welcome. Tell us about your journey and the inspirations along the way that have led you to this point. 

Mikaela Kiner: Sure. So I spent about 15 years in corporate human resources. I was born and raised in Seattle and wound up back in Seattle after a number of years away.

So people laugh at my resume because it’s this it’s a who’s who of some big northwest companies like Microsoft, Starbucks, and Amazon. I also led HR for a couple of startups before launching my firm Reverb just over. 10 years ago. But I think if I take us a big step back. Both of my parents are actually employment lawyers on the plaintiff’s side, which means for those who might not know.

They’re the ones who sue companies in cases of wrongdoing, things like harassment or discrimination. And so I literally grew up at the dinner table hearing these kind of horror stories about things that happen in the workplace. And I think even then it planted a, some seed in the back of my mind about there’s gotta be a better way.

There has to be a way at work where people can. Come in and focus and do their job and also have a good time, but without being subjected to some of this really inappropriate treatment. And as a young person, I did not know what human resources was, but fell into it in a job I had during and after college.

I was working for a startup coffee company in New York City. This will age me, but they were in New York before there was a single Starbucks in New York, and I know it’s a long time ago. They wound up growing to the point where they had 30 stores in three states. They were in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

And I had been working as a store manager and when they embarked on this kind of rapid growth. They pulled me aside and said, would you be willing to do the hiring and training as we expand? And so that was a great opportunity and that was my first foray into human resources. And it was a very small company.

I really enjoyed the work and I thought, if I’m gonna do this work, I should go learn to do it well and do it correctly. And so at that point I left the company, I went back to graduate school and got a master’s in human resource management. And I guess in a way the rest is history.

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s incredible. And thinking about. Growth and the reverberations that happen in corporations when there’s growth. And you and I do have that in common. I also come from corporate background and have been through some of those things on a very different side. So thanks for sharing all of that.

So you created reverb and what do you see as problems that you’re creating solutions for and. How do you see the world around you that reverb can affect? 

Mikaela Kiner: It’s interesting because I think this is something it’s changed quite a bit over the last 10 years and one, we’ve evolved and so the way we think about and approach some of our work, I think has matured.

But also the world and the markets, have changed in different ways. It’s been quite a dynamic past 10 years. So we really started by doing human resources for growing startups, mostly venture-backed tech. And they needed what we do because. They’re growing rapidly. Almost no startup ever begins by having an HR person or frankly really by thinking about hr.

But when they’re growing at that pace, suddenly they’re we’re hiring our first 15 people and they begin to realize we don’t have an offer letter, we don’t have an employee handbook. Maybe we don’t know quite what benefits we’re offering or what some of our policies are. And then they’re going from 15 to 25 to 50 very rapidly.

And so they start running into questions. We have, people, managers who have never managed before. How do we train them to do this well? And then they start to mature a little bit and, they have more questions, how do we increase diversity? How do we make sure that we’re welcoming and that we have a sense of belonging for everyone in the organization?

And then also more tactical things like our employees have been around, some people are asking, how do I get promoted? Or How do I move, from job A to job B. And they don’t have answers for those things because, typically they’ve just been focused on their product and focused on who their customers are.

So we can help them think through that. We can help them anticipate what to think about and be ready before it hits them. We can also help them think about what are some priorities in the people and culture space that maybe you don’t need to worry about right now, a year from now, 18 months from now, we’re going to remind you, right?

We’re going to prompt this type of conversation. So that was the beginning. I’d say we’ve evolved in a few ways. One, even though we started out really supporting these tech companies. We now work with so many different kinds of businesses. In fact, we have a large and growing nonprofit practice.

We work with some small businesses. We work with a number of independent schools, which was a bit of a surprise to me, but we got one or two. And it’s a close community. It’s very word of mouth. And in the greater Seattle area, we love our school clients and, I think a lot of the commonalities is that we’re working with folks who have little or no HR of their own.

It might be because they’re new, like a growing startup. It might be because of their size that they don’t need full-time hr, and therefore they’ve never really figured out a solution. That speaks to a lot of the schools, many of which will never need full-time hr and nonprofits as well. Often they’re small enough that they don’t have the need, possibly they don’t have the budget, and we can help them on a very fractional basis.

We can also come and go as needed, so if we come in and do some project work things quiet down and, we can part ways and just say, call us back when you’re ready or call us when you have a question. And then in addition to the HR consulting. We do leadership development and we also do leadership coaching.

So in the leadership development side, which I think, most of us need this, helping teams think through things like mission, vision and values goal alignment and other things that can be hard for senior teams or, for new teams or teams where members are changing out things like decision making or strategic planning where.

There’s the business and the process aspect of that. But then there’s the human behavior aspect of that, right? And we know that teams need to gel. They need to build trust. They need to get comfortable being candid with one another, having hard conversations, having conflict conversations. And those are just things most of us don’t learn in school and don’t have a lot of practice with.

And so we really like to help teams build those skill sets. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And also your company is a B Corp. Tell us about that journey and what led you to certify. We, 

Mikaela Kiner: yeah. We are, we’re about two and a half years in and it’s actually interesting ’cause I, I mentioned earlier of how I had gone back to graduate school early in my career.

I think I still have this, I recently moved and I pulled out these case studies. So it was actually in graduate school that I first heard of a B Corp and what is a B Corp? And we studied in particular, Ben and Jerry’s and Patagonia. I have those case studies. I was really inspired by that at the time.

I was in my late twenties and this idea of, I think at the time they were describing it as an additional bottom line, right? That doing good in the world positive social impact, positive environmental impact. That this could be something that was important to a company and that could be measured just revenue and profitability.

And I was really taken with that. It spoke to me. I guess it, it spoke to my personal values and actually in the very early days of reverb, I started filling out the initial B Corp assessment. So for those who have never done this, the first step is you fill out the assessment just as is, and you see how would I do if I was applying to become a B Corp today?

And then you do all the work so that you could actually become one. So I started filling that out. It’s a very comprehensive process. I think there were only three of us in the company, three staff and a few consultants. I got a little ways into it and I, it wasn’t the right time, I just thought we’re not in a position, to really invest and do the work that’s going to be required.

But then as we grew, it was something that we came back to. And, I think the reason the staff and the whole team were so on board was that. Being a B Corp, it really reflected the values that we already had as a company. It reflected a lot of things that we already did, whether that’s, working with nonprofits charitable giving, volunteer events, having really high standards for how we treat our workers in terms of compensation and benefits and flexibility and things like that.

And it just felt very aligned, but it also felt I think if it is a shorthand, if someone sees the B Corp like you and I oh B Corp, like we know what that means. We know what each other stand for. And so we felt like it was just really symbolic of what we felt we already stood for.

It’s also it’s a wonderful community, and I think getting to be a part of that community is a huge benefit of being a B Corp. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I concur and things are changing. New standards out in early 2026. We’re in the middle of it and been monitoring that for the last two and a half years.

And it is a community and it’s a growing community. 

And it gives me a lot of optimism because I see how companies are striving to do good and really carrying that forward and spreading the word. And the work you do is important. It reminds me of out of my corporate life I was laid off and I found a startup with a wonderful guy was tech startup.

And we were working mostly in medical and educational types of technologies. And I was the business development person hiring. I had hired over 50 people before in my other career, but in this startup, there was no hr. And I kept asking what, who’s our HR person? Because I thought, I’m hiring people. I need to submit, I need to have a process and procedure.

And there was none. And it was a train wreck trying to, ’cause I knew enough, but I didn’t know how, because I’m not an HR professional. We, when you were talking about that, I thought this is something enormously important to have. Even if there’s no full-time HR person to have someone like you, because there’s so many things that can go wrong if we don’t know what we don’t know in hiring.

And I’m glad you’re out there to via support. What have you found as obstacles and challenges? 

Mikaela Kiner: Oh, so many. We, you mentioned having been in business development. Kudos to you. That is not all of us are cut out to do that. I think because my co-owner and I have made an intentional choice to continue to grow the business, it does mean continuous business development, marketing speaking, events.

We, there are events we put on for the communities where we’re based. And when I started, I was on my own. I spent the first six months independent. I knew I would face the question of whether I wanted to build a team. I just I wasn’t ready, I just kinda wanted to kick things off, get some work, see how I felt.

And then six months in, I had an opportunity to work with a really amazing biotech company that was coming up with innovative therapies to cure cancer. And it was more work than I could do on my own. And I had to think about that. And then I said, this is an amazing company with an amazing mission, and if I’m not going to do this kind of work, what am I out here to do?

And so that was a turning point for me where. I made that choice to to bring on a few team members. But because we’ve chosen to grow, I think sales and business development is it needs to be continuous. And I did not know that as, not someone who had gone to business school. I thought, oh, you’ll, you got some clients who build a good reputation and then, you’re golden.

Right? That is not the case. So that’s okay. We found ways to work with that. I think the shifting just the economy shifts, the market shifts. Currently there are so many changes that are a affecting people and affecting business, right? And whether that’s some of the global unrest that’s going on, it’s tariffs, affecting different types and different sizes of business.

It’s ai, which of course is affecting all of us. And yeah, I think there’s just a continuous need to navigate that too. Make sure that we’re looking at our business and our services that we offer with a critical eye. What may have seemed very affordable to a startup a few years ago. Some companies today may be balking at that because they’re keeping a closer eye on cost, on budgets.

They’re not investing in certain functions like human resources that, isn’t making them money. So I think it’s important to just continuously reevaluate the business and make sure that we’re staying relevant. I think tho those are the biggest challenges that I’ve personally seen.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. That makes sense. And the topic of this talk is how to build a business without sacrificing time and energy. And what are you seeing out there? What are your impressions of founders, leaders? Operations people, their time and their energy, and how do you help? 

Mikaela Kiner: Yeah I’m such a huge fan of this, which is why I am, currently sitting here working remote from Mexico.

I’m just a big fan of, let’s figure out ways to live and enjoy our lives, even while owning a business or working hard or doing a great job. I think there are ways to do both. It’s interesting, because I think a lot of us, we saw so many big shifts during COVID. That were positive for many people, especially parents and caregivers, this ability to work remote, perhaps work in a little bit more of a flexible schedule.

Maybe people who hadn’t had time previously to drop a child off or pick them up or see them over lunch or see them before bedtime, just as one example. That was something that many people got to experience and thought, I don’t wanna go back. Or remote work where many people had the opportunity to live anywhere and work from anywhere.

And it allowed them to make different personal choices. Even just giving up a commute, for an average person, that could be a huge time saving. Cost saving if I’m not having to commute to and from work every day. So I see a split in what’s happened post COVID. I see that many companies have just continued to.

Embrace those things. And we have a number of companies now that are just being built as a hundred percent remote. There isn’t a headquarters. They don’t frankly care where people are. They’re just looking for the best talent and, finding other ways to stay connected and have those important conversations.

That, that could be a little bit harder to have when you’re distributed. But some other companies, more recently, I think have been really buckling down around things like return to office and. We want people in three days a week, or we want people in five days a week and we want people, during core hours.

A lot of the things that were very normal pre COVID and I, for some companies, some industries, I think that could make a lot of sense. The challenge I see is that a lot of companies are doing it. They’re not providing data or information or there may not even really be a clear justification on why they’re asking people to do that.

Maybe it’s more the comfort of the leadership. I wanna see people at their desk. I don’t know what people are doing, when they’re not coming in and out of the building and that, I think I think that’s frustrating to people, especially to people who enjoyed that, that hybrid and remote work.

So it’s a little bit polarized right now, to be honest. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. And how do you work with people around that polarization? Because I can only imagine, it is a different world and I personally love being remote. I can also understand industries need to have people there and there are some industries where like politic or governments we’re there for the public.

So the public needs to be able to walk in and be able to talk with people, but. Also there’s the benefits of a lot less overhead cost when there’s service work to be done and you don’t actually need a building. I was just wondering what is, what does that tension feel like and how do you work with companies where they might feel the tension of employees who would prefer to work from home?

Probably more. 

Sure. That pull to say, no, we wanna justify having desks and having location as well. 

Mikaela Kiner: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there were certain businesses that could never operate remote even during those times. Simple example would be Starbucks, right? I have to be able to go in and order my drink and someone’s gonna make my drink.

So once it was safe, of course companies like that were back in person. Sure. We support a local chocolate company, so as long as it was safe, they obviously had people, in the manufacturing side producing chocolate. That was what they had to do, but for the others, for these, I dunno if we still use the term knowledge worker, that’s probably very dated, but these other kinds of jobs where people could have flexibility, a couple good examples I’ve seen, there’s this term that I heard, I didn’t coin this, I wish I had.

It was called Place with Purpose. The idea behind this is when, where, and how do we gather and being intentional about it. So for meetings or tasks where it doesn’t matter where you are, we’re just going to let you be, wherever and have flexibility. But for work, that this, that these companies deem it’s important to be face-to-face.

It’s important that we can physically, stand up and whiteboard out a solution or something like that. Then they’re gonna be intentional and they’re gonna come together in person and they’re going to do that. So I think that’s really smart because you heard these stories early on when people were going back to offices that were like.

I would go to the office, but then the person I needed to meet was home. So now I’m on Zoom. I had to travel to the office to be on a Zoom call, which I could have just as easily, sat at my desk at home to be on a Zoom call. So I think that’s really smart. The other one was I heard this particularly about a study that was done in the game development industry.

And, they actually gathered data and they did research and they interviewed people and they saw, that while building games, creativity was higher, connection was higher. Innovation and productivity, all these things that were really important to the practice of developing a new game.

It really was more successful when people were working together in person. And so then they were able to put together guidelines for. If you’re in this type of a role and you’re in, this part of the life cycle of building a game, we’re going to ask that you’re all coming together so you can collaborate and work with your peers.

So I think those are great examples. And, while people might think, gosh, yeah, I, I wish I could, work from home every day. I think when we give people these really valid. Reasons that are logical and rational and they can understand and oh, I see where this is important for my work. I see where this is, important for the company to be successful.

They’re at least not gonna feel cynical or have that resentment versus if you’re just like, okay, we just want everybody to come in. And everyone’s going, well, why I was actually even more productive at home. Some of the kind of conversations we have with leaders as they’re going through this decision making process, it really is about.

What are your needs? What are your criteria? Let’s not just start by making a blanket statement of we’re virtual, or, we’re in person. Let’s actually have conversation think this through. Think about what are the needs? Is this in fact gonna be better, for the company? Come together as a leadership team and really have some meaningful dialogue.

And then. Think about one, how do you message it if you’re making a change where, oh, we were remote, now we’re asking people to come back. And then I’ve seen companies do really fun and creative things as they’re welcoming people back. Trying to make it celebratory. Having executives in the office, welcoming people back.

I remember one company was doing some in-person work. This is years ago, but it was around the holidays. They had decorated and they had brought in a barista, they were doing holiday drinks. So I think, not only making it fun, but I think it was their way of expressing appreciation to people and saying, yeah, we know.

We know this might not have been your first choice, but it is something we need to do as a business, and we wanna really help you make the most of it. That 

Kim Allchurch Flick: makes sense. What makes you optimistic? 

Mikaela Kiner: I do love some of these really positive changes that we’ve already talked about that have come out in the last few years.

I think. Greater flexibility for people, more asynchronous work or the ability it’s, oh, if I missed that meeting, I can, maybe it’s recorded or transcribed, I can catch up later. So if I had something going on in my personal life, or I had a work conflict, I’m not suddenly, out of the know and and scrambling.

But there, there are other really positive trends. So if I’ve been doing HR for, let’s call it o over 20 years, easily. Things that we’re talking about today, wellbeing in the workplace, that really increased sense of belonging bringing the whole person to work. And then, more and more I think employee resource groups that are welcoming employees from all different backgrounds and recognizing.

Intersectionality. This is just not language that we were using in human resources 10 plus years ago. I actually got to do a talk with a group called Quiet Leaders at a large organization, and it was an employee resource group for introverts. Which, I had never heard about that and it was modeled on the book, quiet by Susan Kane.

I’m an introvert and I worked in some really extroverted, big tech companies and I thought, oh my gosh I would’ve. I would’ve just soaked this up if there was a group like this for me. When I was early in my career I actually got written performance feedback in one of my first ever performance reviews, which was at Microsoft.

And it said, it literally said something like somehow you’re effective even though you’re quiet. And I thought first of all, I didn’t know those things were mutually. Exclusive. But what interesting feedback, and I just I think it, it took me a long time to understand that especially, I was here, I was like quite on the introverted side and there was these companies that were quite extroverted and that was what they valued.

And so when I had to show up differently a lot of the time, the, my natural tendency but two, which also that can be very exhausting. And if you’re not aware of that, you might not realize, why am I so drained or so fatigued beyond just the work I’m doing? There’s something else that’s going on because that’s a workplace where maybe I’m not going to be as successful if I’m following my own natural tendencies.

But I do I think we’re just recognize people, recognizing people much more today as whole human beings and trying to really provide. A broader array of both opportunities and benefits than what we were in the past. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I am so happy to hear you say that. I also, in corporate life, an introvert in sales and it was scientific medical sales and finding a place to hide enough to be.

Introverted becomes rather difficult. And as I was a manager, we were also given a profile to hire, and it was young, hungry, vivacious all these things that high energy, and I don’t ever wanna say one’s better than the other. That’s not the point. But what I found back then is it wasn’t a, it wasn’t discussed and there’s a cultural expectation.

So when we have to show up as vivacious and on. All the time, particularly in places like sales meetings, how some people thrive on it and some don’t. And it doesn’t make it good or bad, but it’s the lack of discussion and the lack of understanding and also trying to hire people who are so much the same, like a profile doesn’t work out that well either.

The other thing is it doesn’t answer the questions of who is the customer, the client, or the other interactions because there are extroverts and introverts out there as well, and I found it’s that book Quiet by Susan Kane really helped me understand a lot and that I could really own the interactions, the type of quiet introvert that I am in the interactions with.

With the clients and yet still put on a mask and act differently in the corporate culture. And I remember one time I just like to find places to hide. And if it was a sales meeting issue, it was a hotel room just to go be by myself. And one of my bosses said, oh, you’re kind of a loner. Like it was a bad thing.

I think I just had to make a phone call. I’m so happy to hear you say that this is being recognized and also the value of having people together and recognizing what they bring to the table and that all of it is valuable. The introverts and the extroverts don’t have to be in opposition. It’s, it makes a lot more sense in giving people what they need to be able.

To work. Work. And also there’s some of the science on those, cubicle nation open concepts where people complain they couldn’t get anything done because when people are dropping by saying hi regularly and there’s so many interruptions and they’re the gregarious ones and the ones who wanna hide, it’s hard in an open space and I love that you brought up that there’s research in science on some of these things as well.

Mikaela Kiner: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that Kim, about your own experience. First of all, that’s really sad hearing you say that word that you wanted to hide, but I totally get it. As introverts, we need quiet to recharge. It doesn’t mean we’re not great around people. It just means we need that time to ourselves.

And so I’d say good for you for finding it, even if manager, or whoever made a snarky comment about it. But I think you’re absolutely right there, there is room, for all these different styles and. Like you said, teams are better when we are ref reflective of multiple styles. And I’m sure your clients, we’re also people with different styles and different communication preferences.

Hopefully that organization has learned, just a little bit more since that time. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Hope but I, but I think there is a lot more recognition for it. And also another question for you, particularly being in the B Corps world and with. The form of standards and the new standards, there is a focus on equity and it is 2026.

And we know that three letter, three letters are denounced in a lot of places but yet there’s so much room for the goodness of equity. And how do you see that in your work? 

Mikaela Kiner: Yeah, first I’d say, while we’re not a DEI firm, our work really intersects with DEI, as you would imagine for human resources.

And we do have some people with deep DEI expertise. I think we’re really fortunate because we’ve always been pretty clear about our mission and values and who we are. And so when DEI came under attack last year, we felt like. We were in a fine position to stand up and speak up for who we are and what we represent.

And I say we’re fortunate because I recognize that there are organizations, for instance, who are receiving government funding who didn’t have the luxury to do that, but we did. And we took advantage and just reiterated our values and we didn’t lose clients over that. I think those clients were never gonna choose us to begin with.

Our clients are very like-minded. But yeah, as far as all kinds of equity and I, my brain always first goes to things like gender pay equity. It’s really interesting. First of all, our firm is 80% women we’re certified, women owned, and. I think because we offer a good deal of flexibility, we’ve always attracted a lot of women to the organization.

But I have this story that, that I actually mentioned in my book, which is when I was first bringing consultants onto the team and I was reaching out to people I knew. And I spoke to a couple of the men and they were really clear and they said, this is what I need to make, or this is my hourly rate.

And I said, that’s great. And then I spoke to these women colleagues who were, often also friends, and they said, I wanna help, pay it doesn’t matter. Don’t worry about it. Which first of all, just that was, and this is a small sample group, but it was very interesting. And I knew, of course I had to pay them equally, for their skills and experience.

Just because the women said, I’m happy to help, I don’t wanna take advantage of that. And as an HR firm, we obviously have a very strong bias for pay equity. And as a B Corp, we have someone from the outside do an analysis for us every year to make sure that our pay equity is intact, but.

I see two sides to this. So I think people who were not believers in the benefits and value of DEI, whether that’s from a business standpoint or just a humanitarian standpoint, they were ready. They had the excuse, oh, this isn’t popular anymore. This isn’t necessary anymore.

And they were ready to ditch that work, unfortunately. At the same time, those who are committed, I’ve seen really continue to pursue and double down and even, grow their work. And I think the one thing I saw early on was people maybe changed the language because they didn’t wanna flag, okay, DEI isn’t popular.

Let me just call it something else, but let me, keep doing this work. That’s good and important work. That was really encouraging because I was nervous that now everybody’s going to set it aside. It’s not popular. It feels risky. All of a sudden it felt like, is diversity like a dirty word?

Is inclusion bad word? Should I be saying exclusion? What are we supposed to be talking about here? But so many leaders and so many of the HR professionals I’ve talked to have told me. We’re continuing to embrace this. Nothing has changed. We’re continuing all the work we’re doing and I found that really encouraging, especially since the work has been under fire.

Kim Allchurch Flick: I am so encouraged to hear you say that, and I feel it as well. People gathered together and still do the work. What else can you share and would you like people to know about your work about. Building a business without sacrificing time and energy. 

Mikaela Kiner: Yeah. I think we hear all the time how hard it is to be an entrepreneur, right?

It’s hard to start a business. They don’t all succeed. It’s hard to run a business, et cetera, et cetera. And these are true, i’m not, suggesting they’re not true. I just think. These are things that potentially scare people away or, maybe make people not opt in to entrepreneurship.

And I felt like after starting my company, and I think it was year three when we passed year three I sighed and thought we’ve made it like we survived. We survived the, what could be the hard early years. But then what I found was, ah. I think it’s a great deal of fun. I get up, I have a great day, almost every single day.

I love my colleagues and clients who I get to work with. As an owner, you get some choice in who you work with, which is not true in the corporate environment. You get to choose the mission and values of your organization. You get to choose norms like. Do we work an eight hour day? Do we work a 12 hour day?

Am I expected to respond to messages, at 10:00 PM or on Saturday, right? We’re in control of a lot of these choices, and I would just say don’t take that for granted. What I’ve really done, I sometimes joke that reverb has been a social experiment in. How do you build a company that values people, that is flexible, that lets everybody have all that time and energy to enjoy life outside of work?

And yet, we work hard, right? It’s not a lifestyle business. We’re a multimillion dollar business. We’re responsible for a lot of people’s livelihood. But both things can be true. And that’s what I really want. Founders and business owners too. Embrace, if that is important to them, if that is a value to them, is that it?

It really is possible and it will look different, depending on the type of business, the size of your business, et cetera, et cetera. But I believe there are a lot of if that’s something that you’re committed to like I’m very committed to having a business that I enjoy working in.

Life is too short. And I’ve worked the 60. To 80 hour weeks for 15 years, and not super interested in doing that more. I frankly, I don’t think I have the physical or mental energy, even if I wanted to. I just don’t think I could do it. That’s my biggest takeaway and I think it’s, there are I put these practices in sort of two camps.

So one is about the individual leader. It’s what are my. Boundaries. My values, can I say no, can I delegate? It’s like these things that kind of keep us true to ourselves. And then there are some kind of HR and people practices in who do you hire? And, are you trusting people? Are you giving them ownership over their work and frankly treating them like adults, letting them do their job well and manage their own time effectively.

And I think. When you combine those two things you really can have a business that you enjoy running and you really can have room not just for the life outside of work, but life has bumps, right? Things happen. We get sick, loved one gets sick. Child gets a snowboarding, concussion or COVID.

All these things happen, and when you don’t have any wiggle room in your life to begin with. A life event like that happens it’s incredibly stressful. It’s already stressful, but the stress of, I don’t even know how to fit this in ’cause my life is so crammed. That was something I found really difficult in a corporate environment, but, which I’ve been really grateful in this environment, that I feel like I can take a deep breath, I can have a little flexibility.

I know a coworker’s gonna jump into cover for me, and so it’s just less hard to navigate. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, well said. Thank you so much. How can people reach you? 

Mikaela Kiner: I am most easiest to find on LinkedIn. That is the very best place. And then also the company website, which is reverb people.com. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Reverb people.com.

I love the name too. Thank you. Our final question is, if you could have dinner with up to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

Mikaela Kiner: I always find these questions so hard. I don’t know why. The very first person who comes to mind is Michelle Obama. I know I’m not unique in saying that I’m just a fan, an admirer.

I listened to her first book on audio, which she narrated, and that was just, it was a lovely experience. I, if anyone hasn’t read it, I’d say if you’re willing to do an audio book, just hearing her, tell the story was remarkable. I would say my grandfather I lost my grandfather over 20 years ago and he was just a lovely man.

I feel like on the outside he was pretended to be a little like cranky or curmudgeony, but he was really just soft and sweet and a fun person and a great influence. If I had to add a third. No, I don’t really, I’m not like a celebrity fan, but I would probably pick I’d say a favorite musician or artist just because I don’t possess that kind of creativity.

And so I really admire people who do. I always say the most creative thing I do is cook. Which is fine. But I think, people who have musical talent or can, performance or visual arts, I admire them and I love to know what makes them tick. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, what a beautiful table you have.

That’s so awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Everyone, this is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Take care.