Tag: Mental Health

Conversations on mental health in the workplace and in leadership, including self-care as a strategic part of running a values-driven business.

  • The Power of Stories We Haven’t Shared with Shanti Joy Gold of Grow with a Pro

    The Power of Stories We Haven’t Shared with Shanti Joy Gold of Grow with a Pro

    Shanti Joy Gold, a former corporate leader turned entrepreneur and coach who supports LGBTQ+ and other underrepresented professionals, joins Kim Allchurch Flick to discuss how stories reconnect people. 

    Shanti describes hiding her relationship at work for a decade, later coming out in workplace conversations and on LinkedIn, and how allies’ responses sparked her podcast, Stories We Haven’t Shared, creating a forum for under-discussed experiences. 

    They discuss the ongoing, complex nature of “coming out,” the “radar” marginalized people use to assess safety, and how challenges can become superpowers. Shanti highlights podcast episodes on disability (Ruth Blatt), a Holocaust survivor (Tibor Spitz), and her father’s Vietnam experience, and emphasizes presence over rumination. 

    She shares her website, monthly “Saboteur No More” gatherings, and a surfing metaphor for mental fitness; they also discuss music, including the Indigo Girls.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Introductions

    01:04 Shanti Journey and Coming Out

    04:51 Why Stories Matter for Allies

    07:11 Outsider Experience and Superpowers

    10:24 Walls Saboteurs and Joy

    11:38 Showing Up in Community

    13:21 Hope Through Human Connection

    15:19 Podcast Highlights and Powerful Guests

    21:33 Being Present and Finding Peace

    24:16 How to Connect and Saboteur No More

    26:31 Coaching Mental Fitness Surfboard

    31:10 Final Questions Music and Farewell

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and I am delighted to be here today with Shanti Joy Gold, who has journeyed from corporate America to entrepreneurship, and now coaches fellow lgbtq plus professionals to thrive in their careers. She’s the host of the stories. We haven’t shared podcasts.

    And is a lover of things Outdoors is a campfire guitar drummer, a photographer, and enjoys the little piece of heaven she and her wife have built by the Lake. Shante is passionate about reconnecting people to their inner brilliance and getting under the BS to remember all of the cool things we have in common as humans.

    Today we’re gonna talk about the power of stories. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Shanti, welcome. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love your podcast. Thank you. I do agree with you that stories reconnect us and sometimes we don’t feel we have time or space to share, but it can be so magical when we do. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So what has been your journey and inspirations to this point?

    Shanti Joy Gold: Wow. I’ll come at it. Through the lens of the podcast, which is I worked in corporate for about 30 years. I spent the first 10 years of that actively hiding my relationship with my now wife at work. We were working at the same organization, not as peers, and it’s just simply didn’t feel safe to do anything else.

    So that was one phase and then. When I went to my next job, I said, all right, I’m done. I’m gonna get this out there, so to speak. And had these two sit people down, coming out moments at work, which were pretty interesting. Funny in retrospect. At the time, a little painful not in a bad way that it was well received, but very clunky on my part.

    Had those experiences, which was the beginning of me starting to align more corporately in, in my career and have people understand my full story. And then it was only a few years ago, which was about 20 years down the road that I. Did this larger LinkedIn coming out. I pivoted my career from sales leadership roles and joyfully started professional coaching and took me a while to see what was right in front of me.

    I kind of said I started here and went all the way around to understand that I was really called to and excited to support lgbtq plus and underrepresented people in thriving in their careers. And when I made that decision I was excited to talk about it on LinkedIn and realized that I had never even discussed the fact that I’m gay on LinkedIn.

    So all of a sudden I had that realization, which was, wow. As far as I’ve come, I really haven’t had this conversation yet. I haven’t. Told this story in this way to this larger group of people. So I shared I shared about my, my new coaching and who I was gonna be focused on working with. And I told these two Coming outta work stories as a part of it.

    And there were two people who knew me very well, who are very open-minded, curious, wonderful humans. That said, I had absolutely no idea you went through that. Nor did it ever even cross my awareness that anyone might have to have conversations like that coming out, conversations at work. And I, how would I know because I’m a straight, white person and it just wasn’t in, in my field division.

    So thank you so much for sharing that. I feel like, it’s very important to know these stories and keep ’em coming and. I wasn’t expecting that wasn’t on my Bingo card of, responses I was necessarily gonna get to the LinkedIn post, but it really sat with me. And it ultimately became the kernel.

    And the spark for stories we haven’t shared. I started thinking deeply about why hadn’t I shared those stories, and what’s the opportunity if, first of all, if I haven’t shared my story, then what other stories are out there that other people haven’t shared? And why aren’t we sharing ’em?

    What’s my piece in that? What are some of the other nuances and factors at play? And so the idea of creating a container or a forum for people to have these conversations, share these stories. So that we can learn more about each other again, reconnect at a more human level, feel less alone, get inspired all of the things that was really the impetus for the, the podcast, and it’s been really one of my favorite things I’ve done in my entire life.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I’m so touched by that, and as you were speaking, I was also thinking in my world, in my later adult life now. Our neighbors, family members, so many people are gay and 

    Shanti Joy Gold: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: How I love them and it’s open. But dialing back to when I was really young and one of my best friends from fourth grade was in Manhattan.

    We were in Manhattan together. First time there for me and someone was on a street corner saying, will you sign in support of, I think it was gay rights. And I said no. 

    Only because they wanted my address. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Okay. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And later my friend, we were back in her dorm room and she came out to me and she said, why didn’t you sign that?

    I said, oh, I’m totally in support of it. I just, I’m in Manhattan and talking to a stranger on the street corner and I didn’t want to give him my address. That was the only thing. Sure. It was a privacy thing and it really opened up a conversation that lasted well into the night. 

    And. But also thinking about how many people like your colleagues are have.

    In my world, it’s like over 50% of my close people are same-sex marriage or a variety of things, and it’s delightful. But if I didn’t know that, what would the assumption be? Yeah, and I think a lot of people do have more people in their life than they realize and they don’t know. So you bring up something super important.

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. And that’s why it’s equally a space for allies because when I was creating the podcast, in addition to wanting to highlight the stories of underrepresented people it wanted to create a space for people like my friends who had responded to LinkedIn posts and said I wish I could be a part of more of these conversations.

    I wish I could know more of these stories. And I just had a former boss. Who reached out and said, I’ve been looking at your content and I have a sister who’s gay, and I know you and I love my sister, I love you. And I realize how much I still don’t know how much of the story is still not being discussed and, so thank you for bringing that to my awareness.

    Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that’s why stories are so important. Yeah. And I like adding to it with this one. So what do you see in your community? Is there anything more that you see in the community view of the people you serve about these topics and the stories? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah and again, I wanna broaden it beyond just LGBTQ plus to really all underrepresented groups because you know what we would traditionally call minorities?

    I think there’s a shared experience there, right? It’s this experience of being an outsider, navigating from the margins and maybe one person’s. Spec the specifics of their story might be different, but that underlying shared experience of being on the outside and having to question, am I gonna be judged?

    Will I belong, will I be accepted? All of those things. There’s a, I think that’s a, a common, common thread and, the, there’s this extra weight and extra layers to navigate when you are, wrestling with those questions, and I’ve come to describe it as we have this shared kinda radar that’s constantly scanning the room to really assess safety, to assess, is there anything I need to be thinking about and anticipating that might come up where I might feel vulnerable or exposed?

    Coming out, I think we think, and it could be coming out about anything, it could be coming out about disability. It could be coming out about financial insecurity. It could be, coming out in the traditional sense, but it’s not a single moment in time. Typically, it’s an unfolding.

    And I think we all share this awareness of there’s no right way to do it and. You have to follow your intuition about who, who am I ready to share with in a, a given moment, and who am I not ready to share with? And so there’s the navigating of that and the understanding that it is going to continue to happen.

    Every day I have a conversation, I came on here and I said, my, my now wife, right? It’s another revealing, it’s another. So there’s just a lot of complexity there. What it tends to do is. It, we all as humans build some defense w defensive walls. It’s part of our the way our brains are wired, right?

    Our survival brain versus our Thrive brain and. There’s certain ways that we start to build some defenses over time that go way back to childhood and and survival and the layers are just deeper here. And so it’s hearing those stories and the ways that that’s impacted people in their lives. The challenges.

    And then, if you go back to the podcast for a minute, and I’ve not scripted it this way, but the challenges typically get to some moment where it’s like, something’s gotta give, right? This is not, this isn’t working. And that takes a variety of forms and then overcoming that and then the very thing that was presenting the challenge really becomes people’s superpowers in many way, in many ways.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. The thing becomes the superpower. That’s a lovely thing to think about, but it, because it also creates optimism. And in, in your work, helping people and doing the podcast, what are some obstacles and challenges? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: I think it is. These walls that we build unconsciously a lot of the time. Sure, some of them may be conscious, but these walls that we build in, in, in of self-protection, again, is a human thing.

    And. Until we have awareness of the fact that we’ve done it. I think that’s step one is, okay, wow. I didn’t even realize that I had that wall up. And those walls can be internal walls where you start to separate, okay, from my, what’s my real purpose? What lights me up, what brings me joy? And obviously also create separation from other people and gets in the way of connection.

    So first seeing that. That those walls exist, and then being open to investigating that learning tools to start to dismantle the walls and pivot toward the good stuff, right? Joy, flow, creativity, happiness. Th those are, that’s really central to both the conversations I’m having on the podcast as well as the work I’m doing in coaching.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes so much sense. It also makes me think as you’re talking about the differences in locations and how they’re, there are different things, and where I live, I’m close to a very like open, pretty liberal city. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yet live in a rural town that is becoming increasingly. Interestingly conservative and there was a newer city council that’s in place that actually wanted to, they didn’t create a new law about it, but they didn’t want to have pride in the town.

    You mentioned this. Yeah. So the, the people with pride put together a, a business hall in a com, in a community center. My neighbor said, you go with us to that. And I was happy to. And there was security there. 

    And it was full. And it was so delightful to be in there. And it was just pure joy.

    But yet knowing that a couple of businesses down, or driving by the city hall, there’s been kind of this takeover of really hyper religious conservatism that wants to. Shut those types of things down. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So very, very interesting to be in a space like that and observing this dichotomy and yet the people that were there supporting these businesses and each other, it was literally just pure joy.

    That’s 

    Shanti Joy Gold: awesome. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So that’s why showing up I, I think is a big part of it too. And, but it takes increasing bravery sometimes to show up in communities where there the pushback might even require security. So I thought that was really interesting. That’s, 

    Shanti Joy Gold: yeah, that’s also beautiful example of pure, lovely allyship too.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, indeed. Yeah. What makes you optimistic? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: What makes me optimistic is as I’m sharing these stories and getting to just the people behind, in a world where it’s very polarized, obviously understatement. And it’s easy to use your computer and hide behind your computer and, not really get into rooms with people, whether they’re real rooms or virtual rooms.

    And then once you do I feel like so much of that separation just melts away and. When it does, and we can just say, wow, here’s a human being that went through or is going through this particular event. And then, and having the opportunity to showcase that and then hearing back from people who listen that say like I’ve never had an opportunity to hear about it.

    Think about it, experience it in that way, and. I’m not having political conversations with these people. I’m not having, just charged conversations. We’re just people talking about people and it just, it in, and it’s just so beautiful. And I feel like as we continue, when I have those moments, I’m like, well, this is what it’s all about, is just.

    Reconnecting with the fact that at the core we’re all the same. And I see it happen in my podcast and then I see in my coaching business, people reconnect with their, I call it their inner brilliance, right? Like this reconnecting to self, this reconnecting to others. It’s what I, it’s what I do. I immerse in every day.

    Being a witness to it is inspiring and also gives me a tremendous amount of hope. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And what are your, I know every podcast is like a child, they’re very special. But what are some of your highlights that you’d like to share of the podcast you’ve done so far? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: It’s so tough. It’s so tough. They’re, I always say they’re all like my, my little children.

    I think I did. Two podcasts about physical disability. I’ll choose one just to make it a little more streamlined to have the discussion in this case. Her name is Ruth Blatt. She was born without one fully formed hand. And it was just so interesting to learn that she hid this physical disability for 25 years, which.

    Seems impossible. But she did. And to think about that in terms of what was her lived experience like and what were the, what was the fear and the shame and everything that would lead someone to take those actions and then to spend so much time and energy every day actually hiding a very otherwise visible disability was really just.

    Mind altering for me. And it’s a lovely episode. She thinks and talks about UNH because her own journey was a 25 year journey of finally being ready to unhide and then speaking about the many ways that we all hide, right? It so many of us. Hide in, there’s the traditionally marginalized communities and what you would think about the people that hide.

    And then there are people who hide other things. And I alluded to it earlier, financial issues, health issues things that you might not be able to see, like obviously neurodiversity family situations. Just all, I just interviewed someone for the podcast who’s struggled with weight their entire life and what she’s had to navigate and the ways that she went out of her way to kinda hide in plain sight in certain ways as well.

    So that was a very interesting one. Tibor, Spitz. I know he’s a, so yeah, he’s a Holocaust survivor. As I’ve continued with the podcast, I did start with. Speaking to historically marginalized communities and then to the point I was just making realized that there are so many ways that we can all that, that the definition of being an outsider can be much wider than that.

    And so I had the opportunity to think about the Holocaust and. He’s a family friend and had the opportunity to connect with him and speak with him about that experience. He hid for the better part of a year in a literal hole underground with his family, including during wintertime months to escape deportation to Auschwitz, and just to hear his story and how he got through.

    Those moments and how it impacted him and empowered him and completely changed his worldview in beautiful ways was one of the more inspiring ones. And if you don’t stop me, I’ll keep going ’cause there are so many. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I don’t wanna stop you, but I, I, that was the first one of your podcasts I heard. And it rocked my world.

    His voice was so calm and yet so open and descriptive. And to think about that and to think what does it take to be a survivor? What does it take for loss? What does it take for moving forward? And to do so with so much grace? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I was, I’m really moved and that one really stuck with me quite a bit.

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I’ve never personally known a Holocaust survivor. I’ve met a few, but I do know Cambodia and Khmer Rou survivors and. I’ve talked with them a lot. Very similar, different country, different types of torches, different types of things, and yet similar Yeah. That lives being taken away, families being taken away.

    Overpowering all of these things and the people that come through it and create something like a nonprofit to help the children in Cambodia. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Tibor reminds me of my dad, which brings me to just one other of my favorite episodes I’ve done. It was two or three episodes with my dad, but the first one was about his experience in Vietnam and similar to Tibor, very different circumstances, but as opposed to what?

    You one might expect being in Vietnam, having a vast number of near death experiences completely changed my dad’s worldview. He became a, a fatalist, which allowed him a lot of freedom to be just optimistic in many ways, and take the pressure off, and it’s just this beautiful journey that he took.

    From Vietnam, it completely transformed who he is as a, a human and gave me the opportunity to meet the dad that I know and love. So that’s another favorite of mine, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and everybody has their own reaction and that’s a beautiful turnabout. ’cause I never thought of the word fatalist in that way as being 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Optimism and positivity. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: For him if things in life are. For him, because he had so many near death experiences, he came to think clearly I’m not in control of this, right? There’s something bigger going on than me. So if I am not the one in control, then it takes the pressure off and I can just show up and trust the process and be present and enjoy the moments.

    And there were some there were some adjusting he had to do along the way because you can get to a point where you’re just so optimistic and can almost get to a passive place where he learned that. It’s important to still show up very actively in your life and to still be in a place where you are engaging fully and just being the best that you can be in every moment.

    So there’s been a journey within the journey for him, but that’s the gist.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: The journey within the journey. That’s a really good quote. Yeah. What else would you like to add and share with people about your life or the podcast or your viewpoints?

    Shanti Joy Gold: I think that. Just what I was talking about with my dad a minute ago, and it’s something I continue to have to work on even for myself, but really being present. I spent so much of my life. I was in corporate America. I was blessed that a wonderful career and I realized also that I was constantly.

    On the move. So it was, from one thing to the next thing to the next thing. Being in sales specifically in my case was always, the next benchmark, the next goal one-upping. So it was just endless. Now that doesn’t mean I didn’t have moments. I had plenty of moments that I enjoyed and and, but I would say on the balance, I was either thinking backwards about, okay.

    How could I potentially have handled a situation differently? The coulda would’ve should have stuff or thinking ahead because again, sales and business and strategy, because I got to a leadership position like all of the what ifs, right? So thinking ahead to the what ifs. And really if you step back and think about it, that’s where anxiety lives in the looking at the past and ruminating about how things might have gone differently and what role you might have played in that.

    And then thinking ahead to all of the different what if possible scenarios of which, by the way, probably 80, 90% of them never happen. The opportunity to just be fully present in a moment is. An invitation to just be peaceful and. Joyful. Because in the present moment it’s just you and me right now, there’s nothing to worry about.

    We’re having this conversation. It’s lovely. And so being in that pocket is such a beautiful place. And again I’m human and I’ve got I call ’em in the work I do my saboteurs, and they’re pretty strong and they’re gonna pull you out of the pocket whenever they can, but just.

    Coming back into that space. And in, in doing the interviews for the podcast, in the moments that I have with my clients, for me that’s fully about being in the pocket. It’s part of what I love. And then just making sure I’m doing that in my life as well with the people and the things that I care about.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I fully appreciate that and I, as I am here interviewing you for a podcast and filming the same, it’s so delightful to be focused. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And to listen. What can, how can people reach you? How can we help you? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: So I really can be found primarily on my website, shanti joy gold.com, which I’m sure you’ll put in the show notes.

    It’s S-H-A-N-T-I-J-O-Y-G-O-L d.com. Is more about the coaching work that I do. More about the podcast. I am hosting monthly work workshops, but I really just, their gatherings, they’re, I like to have the same kind of campfire style vibe as I do. When I’m speaking with podcast guests and it’s called Saboteur No More, it’s, this isn’t really for me although it is, because when there’s a lot of energy in the room, it really drives these conversations.

    But on the third Wednesday of every month at 6:00 PM Eastern, I’m hosting these gatherings called Saboteur No More. And it’s really to get people together to share more of our stories to look at its mental fitness work. And to get a better understanding of the origins of our saboteurs, how to recognize them, what purpose do they serve in our lives.

    And then once we can see them, how do we start to say, okay you can, shoo, you can go now. I appreciate what you’re trying to do, but you’re getting in the way here. So they’ve been really wonderful gatherings and showing up for those. If you feel aligned, it would be very welcome all around.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That sounds lovely. I love that title Saboteur no more. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, thanks. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: We are, some of us are more than others into self-sabotage and don’t even know it. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. Yeah. That’s one distinction I make. It’s interesting ’cause that is what I’ve named. I’m just, it’s catchy and it’s close enough. But the reality is that, our saboteurs, we never.

    It’s not a cure and they, you don’t ultimately get rid of ’em. I think in some, in many cases, you can skip that whole saboteur thing and just go into a more, positive, peaceful flow state. But life life’s, and the reality is that those guys are gonna show up at points and then it’s really having the tools and the muscle.

    To pivot out of that much more quickly than you might have previously. So it’s cool 

    stuff. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I love that. So you also have your coaching and the podcast, and what does the coaching mean to you and how does that show up? With the saboteur no more and beyond. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, the Saboteur No more is really a direct a direct piece of my coaching work.

    It, as I mentioned before, it is mental fitness and the initial work that I do with with my coaching clients. Is building three core mental muscles, the same way you would build, go to the gym and physical fitness and build certain core muscles like your abs, et cetera. There are three core mental muscles that we can build to help us be able to remain calm and clearheaded.

    In all cases, including when the stuff, so to speak, is going down. And so it’s has to do with practice, just like going to a gym, doing reps repetition and building this foundation to really support us and a allow us to make choices that are. More positive. I use the analogy with surfing, right?

    You can go out, I’m gonna say the Jersey Shore ’cause I’m a Jersey girl. You go out to the Jersey Shore, it’s one of those days that there’s these enormous waves and one of the choices that you can make is to go. Walk into the water and stand in front of the waves and, brace yourself and, grin and grit and bear it.

    And the wave comes and you get knocked around and you’re like, I can do this. And you stand back up and you take another wave and you take another wave and you take another wave. And one can make that choice. And that’s something that, we can do for a period of time. But it’s.

    Exhausting and truly not sustainable. At some point you’re just gonna take one and be like, I’m done. I’m out. And then the alternative is to go back to the shore. Catch your breath, grab a surfboard, and now it’s the exact same wave, exact same wave, but now you’ve got the surfboard and you’re up on top of the wave and where before there was water in your eyes and you were getting beaten up.

    Now you literally, the definition of flow, right? You’re shifting creatively as the wave is shifting. You are up above everything you can see clearly. You’re having fun. You had this attitude like, all right, wave what you got. Let’s do this thing. And it’s a, the completely different experience, same wave.

    So in life, the waves are gonna come. We don’t control the waves, but we can choose how we respond to them. And in the coaching work I do with mental fitness being phase one of how I work with clients, it’s giving people the foundation to. Recognize that there are two choices, and then to be able to say, okay, I want to do the surfboard one.

    Do I have what I need to do that? And to make sure that they do. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I always love a good metaphor and Me too. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Being beaten up by something and withstanding it for a while is one thing, but writing the writing on top of it and coasting with it. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: It 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: feels so much better. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. And when you’re 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: in that, what a great metaphor.

    Shanti Joy Gold: Thank you. When you’re in that first scenario, when you’re taking the waves head on, literally all you can do is just you’re in, a defensive position. All you can do is just survive the wave. Embrace for the next one. You don’t have any capacity for. For the good things because you’re just bracing yourself for what’s coming next.

    Getting people out of that, helping people see that and get outta that cycle is a lot is very rewarding. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Everyone everything will be in the show notes and these takeaways to me are meaning so much. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we go to the final question? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: No, I just really appreciate the opportunity to be here talking to you as always.

    And 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah, 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Thank you for inviting me. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, this has been such a joy. And it’s also a joy that we live on opposite coasts. We have not yet met in person. We’ve built, I think, a, a wonderful conversation, relationship. In virtually, but in Agreed. Yeah. In real time. Yeah. And I love those possibilities. And sometime during travel, one of us will be in the same place at the same time and let the other know.

    And I think people around are learning to do that as part of community. Yeah. So many levers, layers to what is community and we can learn from each other. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Definitely. It’s been a pleasure. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It is. So the last question is, if you could have dinner with. Up to three additional people living or deceased, who would they be and why?

    Shanti Joy Gold: I’m just gonna stick with the most obvious, which is the Indigo Girls. I’m a huge music fan and it’s actually a part of my podcast. I have a segment on my podcast that is it’s my podcast, so there will be music, and I ask the same question. What’s, if there was one, one song you could put in a time capsule and preserve it all across for future generations, what would it be and why?

    So similar to this, and. Just to say that music is really important to me because I love it and because I do think it gets that underlying core DNA that we all share. So the Indigo Girls, I mean from a musical standpoint, I have a pretty wide breadth of music that I enjoy, and so there’s like all of it.

    And then there’s the Indigo Girls like way like, a couple stories above that. And so it’s Emily Sails and Amy Ray and. Their music just is such a big part of me. Their lyrics are next level, their harmonies, the way they interplay off of each other and create, the whole, that phrase, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

    What they produce musically is is that for me and. They’re gay and that’s just icing on the cake. But you know that as a part of me growing up and looking for visibility and representation, as, as I started to understand that they were gay too, that became an important part of my journey to be able to see them and the world and what they were doing.

    But the music, it just is so. Beautiful next level. And if I could spend some time nerding out with them about specific songs and specific inspirations and how they I know in reading about them, how they work together, but just to get into all of that in a room with the two of them would be amazing.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: My husband loves the Indigo Girls, and he introduced them to me, and I think they had a song in the movie Philadelphia. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And Beyond, but there are,

    I think it was that one, but 

    Shanti Joy Gold: I think that was, I don’t want to talk about it potentially in that movie, but Yeah. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And beautiful voices.

    Shanti Joy Gold: Beautiful voices 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Velvety clear lyrics that are meaningful. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. Emily’s got a higher cleaner voice and Amy’s got the deeper like bold, like big voice and then their songwriting is very different. Emily’s kind of more.

    Poetic and lyrical. Amy’s it’s just different and the guitar playing. Emily is like, lead guitar, just virtuoso and Amy does a lot of rhythm and it just, it’s just who they are and the way they come together and they stand for community. They do a tremendous amount in terms of activism and.

    So it’s, you start here and you’re like, well, I hope they’re good people too. And then it just gets better from there. So 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. So I’m gonna ask another question. What would be your time capsule song? 

    Shanti Joy Gold: It would be one of theirs, and if I don’t think too much, there’s a song called Ghost, and I did choose that as one of mine on the podcast.

    It’s an Emily song and it’s about a kind of an unrequited love and this telling of that story in a really beautiful, poetic way with a music musically. There’s this build to it. There’s orchestration behind it, and some really interesting chords, not just standard chords. So the kind of, the resonance of the music with the lyrics.

    It’s one of the best songs I’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing and I go back to it again and again and it’s good every time 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I’m gonna listen to it. I have Spotify, I’m gonna find it. All right. Thank you so much. You didn’t ask, but my, my brain answered the time capsule music questions so immediately.

    Shanti Joy Gold: Yes, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and it would be fragile by sting. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Oh, I don’t think I know that song. Oh, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: well then you have to listen to that. So Fragile by Sting. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: I can’t wait. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s from, it’s at least 20 years on. It’s one of those songs that it could never get old. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Oh, wow. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And then he also won, wrote one called Brand New Day, which is just so uplifted.

    That one 

    Shanti Joy Gold: I know. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: But Fragile is for the time capsule. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Cool. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: All 

    Shanti Joy Gold: right, I’ll check it out. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Well, Shanti Joy Gold. You are a joy. 

    Shanti Joy Gold: Thank you 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and this is gold. So are you sure? Some corny metaphors, but thank you so much everyone. It is a delight to have you listening whenever you choose to do so. This is Kim Allchurch Flick signing off with the Mighty Measure Podcast.

    We appreciate you, take care. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Shanti Joy Gold

    Shanti Joy Gold smiling on a boat thats out on the water.

    Shanti Joy Gold journeyed from corporate America to entrepreneurship and now coaches fellow LGBTQ+ professionals to thrive in their careers.

    She’s the host of the Stories We Haven’t Shared® podcast, lover of things outdoors, campfire-guitar strummer, photographer… and enjoys the little piece of heaven she and her wife have built by the lake.

    Shanti is passionate about reconnecting people to their inner brilliance and getting under the BS to remember all of the cool things we have in common as humans.

    Website
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    Join the free monthly Saboteur No More! gatherings for LGBTQ+ and underrepresented professionals
  • Radical Self-Care as Resistance with Heather Beiden Jacobs of Transformative Wellbeing Coaching

    Radical Self-Care as Resistance with Heather Beiden Jacobs of Transformative Wellbeing Coaching

    Heather Beiden Jacobs, a Portland-area wellbeing coach who supports organizers, nonprofit leaders, and mission-driven change makers with “radical self-care” as strategic infrastructure and inner work of resistance – joins Kim Allchurch Flick.

    Heather shares her background of childhood trauma, a severe diabetes diagnosis at age eight, years of self-destructive behavior, and a near-death hospitalization at 19 that helped shift her toward healing, sobriety, and sustained self-compassion, later reinforced by her relationship with her partner, Blaine.

    She describes widespread chronic systemic overwhelm and how burnout benefits manipulation and division, arguing self-care is necessary, mutual, and tied to meeting human needs so people can access clarity and collective action.

    Heather discusses challenges of reaching overwhelmed clients, offers a workshop for aligned organizations, and shares how to contact her via TransformativeWellbeingCoaching.com and LinkedIn.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:42 Heather Origin Story

    02:39 Diabetes Diagnosis

    05:28 ICU Turning Point

    09:10 Love and Healing Path

    14:54 Why Coaching Now

    17:47 Stress and Self Care

    21:02 Radical Self Care Framework

    24:52 Coaching Business Challenges

    28:58 Hope and Active Resistance

    33:48 How to Connect

    35:46 Dinner Guests and Wrap Up

    Kim Allchurch Fick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast. And today I am delighted to bring in a dear friend that I’ve known for over 20 years. This is Heather Beiden Jacobs. Heather is a wellbeing coach who helps mission-driven individuals, take radically good care of themselves, because in moments this demanding of our clarity and courage, self-care isn’t a luxury, it’s a strategic infrastructure.

    A lifelong activist and an eternal optimist grounded in reality. Heather supports organizers, nonprofit leaders, and purpose-driven change makers seeking balance, resilience, and renewed purpose based in the Portland metro area. Heather brings a grounded presence and a gift of metaphor that makes complex experiences easier to navigate.

    Her coaching creates a clearing where people can breathe, reflect, and flourish. Today we’re gonna talk about radical self-care, the inner work of resistance. Wow. So great to have you here. 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Aw, Kim. Thank you. It’s good to be here with you. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: You know this top, this recording today is gonna resonate with previous recordings that I’ve had, where I’ve heard quotes like A strong business is a force of resistance and O, others of that nature as well.

    And I am so glad to have you talking about how to help the people work through the issues of the times. And generally we’re in 2026 and this is evergreen, but there are things that are relevant today that’ll be relevant down the road as well. So thanks again for being here, my dear friend. What has been your inspirations and your journey and challenges to this point?

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Wow. There’s so much to unpack from that. I try and hit some of the highlights or maybe the low lights. I, looking back at, my young life, I had I grew up with a lot of trauma. There was a lot of abuse in the house. My mother struggled with substance use disorder and alcohol use disorder.

    So I got I got more than my fair share of adverse childhood experiences in my young life. And looking back, I see how critical that was in helping me as somebody who’s very, I am very sensitive. I’m very porous, and to be able to learn how to navigate that kind of energy as a young child is something that I am actually leaning on a lot today in the 2026 of just all the toxicity in all of that we are experiencing.

    And then moving through that, one of the biggest points of shifting for me was when I was diagnosed with diabetes, which is something we’ve talked about before. I, I was eight years old at the time and this was like in the seventies, so it’s very different than where we are today. And I was, I went into a coma and I spent three days in ICU.

    And so it’s, so I was diagnosed on October 15th. I celebrated on October 18th. Because that’s when I found out that I had diabetes and when I awoke the I have very vivid memory of the, the doctor coming in and he was talking over me to my parents and he said that I shouldn’t have lived. They were surprised that I survived the coma and that I had what he called, I was a brittle juvenile diabetic, so he labeled me right out of the gate.

    And that made me very angry. I did not like the term brittle because I saw myself as very tough. I was a tomboy and. I didn’t identify with brittle and he continued that. I would be dead by 40 and by that time I would be blind with an amputation and on dialysis. I didn’t know as a child how to do what that even meant.

    I was eight years old when this happened, and living in that environment, my parents had divorced at this point. And just growing up with a lot of trauma and a mother who had her own demons and challenges and really. Imparted on me this sense of unworthiness, I was undeserving of love and I was a burden that was made very clear to me through my, my life of how hard it was to be my parent.

    And so I internalized not surprising a lot of that messaging as a young child. And then as I started to get older, I like all humans. I wanted to feel like a sense of agency that I had some power over my life. And the way I viewed it was, rather than be dead by 40, I wanted to be dead by 30.

    And so I embraced all of the behaviors that were not recommended. If it was bad for you, I did it. I did it with great gusto. Looking back at like my peer group I ate more sugar, I drank more alcohol, I did more drugs, I smoked more. I was just trying to facilitate my own demise and I’m an overachiever.

    And so I was accelerate, I was excelling at it and just stuck in that space. I didn’t think I deserved better than that. It was when I was about 19 years old, was the very beginning of the shifting of my path. I had I had been sick for quite some time and reticent with not getting care and my roommate called the the ambulance on me.

    They got hauled into er and by the time I got there, I had I could barely breathe. I come to find out later, I had many strains of pneumonia in addition to being in ketoacidosis. I was in the ER and I, this the doctor came in to intubate me. He’s got a tube and he goes to jam it up my right nostril.

    And I have a very narrow passageway and I remember feeling this like warmth of blood dropping down my lip. And so I took a swing at him and was immediately put into restraints. And I remember to this day, the, it, the the fight that I had trying to breathe. Trying to hold on to this life.

    And and then I just couldn’t do it anymore. I just couldn’t do it. And I remember just like letting go. I, I don’t know how many when it was after that, but I later woke up and I see it with a, a tube down my throat. ’cause I couldn’t get it through my, my na my nose and and all these machines.

    And I was pissed. I was so angry that I woke up. I had, I thought I had achieved it. I thought I was well ahead of schedule. I thought I had, done what I had been trying to do. And yeah I remember just being so angry and I had three and a half weeks on the ventilator in ICU where I just stewed in self-hatred.

    And. Looking back, if it wasn’t for the two nurses that were there, Carol and Jeff, I remember them to this day. The compassion, the kindness, these people didn’t even know me and they treated me with such generosity of heart and spirit, and I felt I felt seen in a way that I had not.

    Outside of my aunt Sissy, my beloved, and my Nona Bella. They were the two people in my life that really saw me for who I was and didn’t think I was I was a burden. But I just I didn’t know what else to do. I had been in this way for so long and there was, this was in the East Bay of California, San Francisco Bay area.

    And it was rainy. It was spring and it was a spring rain. And that’s not very common. And I remember seeing the rain in the puddles pulling up in the parking lot outside, and I love puddles. I used to love jumping in puddles when I was young, and it was like I would’ve given anything to have been able to do that.

    And I’m like, I can’t even breathe on my own. Let alone go jump in puddles. And it was in that moment that I was like this is, I can’t, I’m not going to do this anymore. And I really I rededicated the energy towards. Focusing on being able to breathe on my own. And so I was working with respiratory therapist and within 24 hours I was out of ICU and off of the ventilator.

    And spent a few days in the hospital. They wanted me there longer, but I hated hospitals. And I went against doctor recommendations and I checked myself out. It’d be a glorious story if that was the moment that everything changed, but it’s not. I ended up going and hanging out with my friends and smoking and drinking that night.

    But something had shifted in that experience at the hospital. And then it was it was about a year later that I, I was, my dearest friend started working at a restaurant called Charlie Brown’s in the Bay Area, and I met who is now my partner and started working there. And Blaine was just like I have so much love for this guy.

    He just, he was fun and he made me feel like I deserved to be loved. And, we were friends for like over a year and a half before we even started dating. I never thought I would get married. I never thought I was gonna have the life that I am living right now. I thought I would be dead a long time ago.

    It was it was a point where I had a different way of thinking about it. Me. Perishing and having a miserable death. That was all well and good. I deserved it. Blaine didn’t, and it was the thought of him taking me to dialysis. That really, really shifted it for me. I just, I knew it would break his heart and I didn’t wanna break his heart.

    He didn’t deserve that. And so I began this journey of healing that, was full of fits and starts and fails and I, I remember the because it’s not that I didn’t know what to do, right? Like so many of us, we know what to do. I had been told a hundred times over what I needed to do.

    I just didn’t really know how to do it. How to sustain doing it, let alone why I would want to do these things. That was the beginning of me learning how to heal and to tend to me in a way that I believe all of us humans deserve with some compassion and kindness. If I look back at some of the darker days of my life, I wouldn’t believe me.

    If I met me, I’d be like, that’s just, that’s a bunch of bs. There’s no way that this is my future. I would not believe that this is the life that I’m living. And it’s been through that journey of navigating those times and how to actually change that has led me to do the work that I do in coaching.

    I, I understand the terrain. We all have different journeys and there’s a lot of overlap. We’re all human. And I have been able to take some of the things I hated about myself like my alcohol use disorder, my, all these things that I really hated about me. I see them now as blessings and gifts because I learned so much.

    By getting sober, I learned so much in the process of quitting smoking and getting healthier and doing this that I wouldn’t have gotten if I didn’t have all of those things to tend to. My life has been a, a journey of hoarding behaviors that are detrimental to the human body and spirit to a, a, a clearing and a reordering of my internal house that I.

    I know is possible. And that’s what’s so incredible, Kim, is that I am not special. I’m not, I’m human, and we are all capable of this. It’s our capacity and what we are capable of is something that I think very few people are aware of. And as a coach, that’s what I do I shine a light on the the potential, the human potential that is with.

    Within the people that I coach. And as we say, it’s like my, my confidence in their ability to thrive is greater than their doubt. And I meet everyone with the same generous spirit that helped me begin my journey looking back at those two nurses and my beloveds. So it’s been quite a journey, and now I get to do this work and help people find their own way in their own lives.

    Kim Allchurch Fick: Oh wow. It’s, I’ve heard your story before and the depth that you’re giving us now it’s so resonant because we met after all of this. We met when you were already married and it was with a pharmaceutical company focused on diabetes mostly type two. And I was drawn to that because I’d been with a company before that was boutique and small, and I loved that.

    And then it grew. It’s so big that I didn’t know people anymore, and I decided to go to this startup where you and I both had our jobs for a while and how you really resonated with me because not only did you bring to the company and the teams. A pure ability to be able to talk and discuss and the understanding of the science, but this history and this compassion for the patients that we would never meet, but knowing that there are people out there who could really be served and, we formed a, a bond over the years we were there.

    But the other thing I really recognized about you and discussions. How you really talked about activism as well, and even a desire to go run for office. Yeah. And something like that. And that’s something that I admire so much because I’m the last person who would wanna run for office. It’s I wouldn’t want my name or face on a poster.

    I wanna hide in the background, but I always felt this is somebody that I could get behind and be the backstage person for. And we’ve been friends ever since and it’s now been. 20 years, and I’m so glad that your journey to this point has been. So much of giving of yourself, but giving back to yourself as well.

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: So what is it that you see now that helps you create some solutions for other people, but what, what has been resonating and what is, and worldview is a enormous topic, but what is it that inspires you to do this coaching and what are you seeing? 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Yeah, thank you. What I’m hearing, seeing, and what I’m hearing is is very understandable.

    This chronic overwhelm that people are experiencing in our day-to-day lives. And it’s not a, it’s not necessarily of our own doing. A lot of this is very systemic. And then when you add the layer of this current administration on top of it they benefit from us being overwhelmed and burned out.

    We are much easier to manipulate. We are much easier to divide when we are not able to access those human qualities that are untapped in so many of us because we don’t have the, we don’t have the internal resources to be able to do that. We are stretched so thin. If we are unable to meet our needs, we can’t think about those higher needs.

    And so, so many people today were thinking about like, how do we pay our rent? How do we pay our bills? How do we afford groceries? How do we fill our car tanks? That that is going to be the highest need we can worry about until it’s mapped. Having people understand the gradients of need and to help those be net so that we can have access to what is, I believe, what this moment is calling forth, which is just like a mass awakening of our human potential.

    We are the solution. We are languishing, not of our own doing, but because the way our society and our cultures are constructed, and so helping people to understand themselves better, become better allies with themselves. So many of us, myself included, we can be our own worst critic, our worst enemy, and we’re really, really good at that.

    I am. I’m very cognizant of how common that is for the human condition and learning how to work with ourselves with some kindness some compassion for our human experience. Can help us access parts of ourselves that are just untapped because they’re just, we don’t have the the capacity to do it right now.

    So what I do as a coach is I help people, have greater clarity and to set a course. And then I help them with finding their own way because all of us have it within us. It’s a part of our human design. We have it within us. It’s just a matter of being able to access it. And so that’s the work I get to do and I love it.

    Kim Allchurch Fick: And this reminds me of a conversation I had with some friends about, constant stress and some of it’s low grade stress and even though it’s acute, but the low grade meaning the consistent stress of the groceries and trying to get our work done while other things are happening, and even a headline can throw us off a bit.

    And we were also talking about privilege. And right now I’m privileged that I’m probably not gonna be picked off the street by somebody because of the way I look and. Yet. I also am in a position where I hire a lot of contractors and I have chosen to hire contractors of color on many occasions, movers, landscapers plumbers, all sorts of people.

    And I find that in additional low grade stress is if they don’t answer a text in 24 hours, I wonder if they’re gone. Yeah. It’s not that I would get mad that they’re not responding. It’s like, were they taken? And we were talking about that as being some of these things about the unknown and an imagination that can go rather wild.

    And all of these people have been here, they’re licensed, funded, insured, register, all of the things, and yet. Even in a neighborhood where I lived, a neighbor texted us one time and said, there’s an unmarked truck in our neighborhood and we’re concerned that, 

    We’re concerned about the identity of this.

    So when you’re talking about all these different stressors, there are so many layers. There’s the big headland ones, which are distant, yet acute, and then there’s our daily life ones and. I wondered if you could also address this overused, couple of words, self-care and how you frame it. Because I think you frame it in a way that is so much more important than, yeah, taking a break to go to a spa, that kind of thing doesn’t really help much.

    But how, for people who are doing the work, there’s this saying about the two people who were cutting trees and it’s about productivity, and two people were cutting trees and one just kept going, just hacking away and hacking away. The other one took a break, and in the end, the one who took a break ended up cutting more trees, and the question was, why?

    And he said, well, during my break I fed myself and I sharpened my ax. So I was wondering if you could speak to self-care and how you look at it with your coaching and how does it keep us focused and going and fueled enough to feel like we can do what we need to do and whatever people are doing.

    And this is non-partisan and yet for some people it might be. So I’m gonna leave it non-partisan, but we’ll. Many of us are either gonna hide from something that’s so scary or we want to contribute to something to make change. 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: And all of that is very human of us to want that. It’s understandable why we wanna hide and it’s understandable of why we wanna rise up.

    It’s, it makes sense. And when looking at the, the marketing tool of self-care and how, it’s it’s just like a catchall for all. I have people in my life. They’re like, yeah, I had self-care. I had two glasses of wine last night. And so I understand and I appreciate the question and I think that so just laying like the groundwork for this is just like.

    Looking at our human evolution and just like what we are designed for when it comes to stress and when we look at like our ancestors, w we were, we are designed for acute episodic physical stress. The saber tooth tiger would come in, we would run away, and then we would go sleep under a tree and have some berries for a few days.

    We would be able to replenish ourself from that stress. The differences in the world that we’re living in today is that it’s chronic stress and it’s a psychosocial stress. It’s not physical stress often. Yes, there’s that too, but it’s a psychosocial experience and that stress level, and it’s chronic.

    We don’t get, many of us, we don’t get a break from it. And if we do take a break from it, we feel like we’re not doing enough. How dare I do something for my wellbeing right now? When there’s so much that’s happening, and that’s a fallacy, we cannot sustain the movements that we are in if we are not taking care of ourselves.

    And understanding also that self-care is not separate. Self flourishing is mutual and self care is taking care of each other as well. Think about like when you do something for somebody, how do you, we feel really good about that. And that kind of internal reward system is inherent to our humanity.

    And so it’s working with each other to take care of ourselves and our world. And it’s a nourishing of our needs and really, in many ways, getting out of our own way because we can we can complicate things. We get stuck in our storylines and we can lose sight of the opportunity that we are in as a species, not just in this, these United States.

    This is a global phenomenon that is happening right now, and we are in a threshold state. This is a bardo. This is an InBetween right now. And what has been is no longer what we’ve all known you and I grew up with is just, it’s not here anymore. It’s been demo demolished. Literally demolished.

    The people’s house has been demolished by this current administration. And we have an opportunity. Now, what do we do in this in between? To be more intentional with what we create after. Do we perpetuate the systems of oppression that have led to this moment, or do we do this differently? And so at this time, what is most important is resourcing ourselves.

    Resourcing each other. And healing ourselves in this planet. That is what we are designed to do as humans. We are designed to work in conjunction with this glorious planet that is a single ecosystem. It has what it needs when we work with it, not against it, and not against each other. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: Oh, amen. Thank you.

    And that reminds me of Robin Dwa Kim’s books where she talks about reciprocity, not extraction and being able to know that we can live on the planet and the planet can live with us, and there’s balance if we treat it right. My next question is it is entrepreneurship and being service providers can sometimes.

    Be hard to market. We are often unseen and or for just a of a few people, but there’s a lot of competition out there as well. What are some obstacles and challenges for you in this space? 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Thank you for that. Part of the challenges, you know, is people knowing who I am and what I do and feeling.

    That I’m somebody to have a conversation with, that I can actually hold the space for their humanity. And like thinking like I, I started like mentoring like 25 years ago, people with diabetes. I was one of the reps that was actually meeting with the patients. And that is part of what helped me in my own healing process was wanting to be a good example.

    So I’ve been doing this work. Then with coaching, it’s been 25 years that I have been embracing this this ability, which has, I think always been within me. But really be more intentional with how I use it instead of just giving it to people like my, my mother and people who I honestly, I don’t think.

    Benefited or deserved what I was giving. And to be much more clear of where I’m using my gift. And I do think my coaching is a gift and my calling. And so right now it’s having people who are overwhelmed and burned out to even think that they have the space. To sit down and have a conversation with me.

    It feels like it’s a nicety. It’s not a, it’s not a necessity. And I understand that framework. And yet I also know that that is not going to, often, does not lead to what we’re wanting to and we can grow towards. And that there needs to, many of us need to shift. I’ve been coaching and working in this field for a very long time, but really pivoting to working in with activists and purpose-driven people and the people who are doing the work that I wanna support.

    And that’s like Timothy Snyder talks about, is having the courage to bring what we do best to the movement spaces. I’m not somebody that’s like really meant to be doing like organizational work, it’s just that’s not my strong suit. What my strong suit is, is helping people who do that work be able to be better resourced within themselves so that they can bring more of themselves to be more effective and to continue to do this work.

    This is a marathon, this is not a sprint, and we have a sprinting mentality and so helping people. Slow down, take some breaths and be able to meet this moment is it’s, I get it. I understand why people don’t feel like they have time. And I also find that people who work with me realize that the time is well, well served and it helps them.

    Kim Allchurch Fick: And I’m thinking about all the people that. Could probably benefit and don’t even realize it yet, but people who are already in office, people who are running for office, people who are in nonprofits, who are striving when budgets have been cut. People who are out there, activists people like me who still would like to go in, in the streets during a rally, and yet knowing that in some places we might be labeled as terrorists.

    It’s gotten to that point in the where do we keep going and where do we step back and say, okay, how can we help others do this? But with that, I’d love your quote. Have the courage to do what we do best for the movement spaces. And that’s a good way to frame it, because I hadn’t really.

    Considered it in that way, but I’ve always considered myself to be the backstage player. I will help people build the stage, I will help ’em their, with their lines, things of that nature. And that work is also really relevant because I really admire the people who want their faces out front. And we need those people too.

    So with all of this, what makes you optimistic? 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Oh wow. Our incredible human capacity for for resilience for compassion, for being able to

    just, ’cause when I talk about our human potential, it’s like, oh well we have the potential to do such harm. We also have the potential to do so much good for ourselves and each other. And it’s what are we trying to do? And I think when we are, as so many of us are right, we are in our lower brains because we, that is what is gonna benefit the current powers that be is us in a reactive state.

    What we desperately need is a human response to this moment. We need to be able to have the clarity of being more intentional, and we do that by knowing what our needs are, what are not met what of my needs are, am I not able to even get to, and how can I. Make sense of this when so much of our world right now is it’s bombarding us.

    It’s like gorilla warfare. We’re constantly being inundated with these messages of just fear and division and, catastrophe. That it’s going to make us very understandably, it’s gonna trigger our amygdalas and we’re gonna be in fight, flight, and freeze. As our modus operandi, and we are capable of so much more than that.

    And our frontal, no, our prefrontal cortex, that is what humans can bring and it’s being able to access that. I believe that that is helpful. And so one of the things that I’m doing right now is I have a workshop that I do. Called taking radically good care of ourselves is active resistance.

    It’s a two hour workshop. And I am, yes, I wanna be able to pay my bills. Yes, I wanna be able to do these things, but right now I want to also know that I have done everything I possibly can to meet this moment. And so I have I’m offering it to organizations. Whose missions I align with, they’re going to, I don’t think that people of very different political viewpoints would want to necessarily work with me.

    Not that, and I wouldn’t, I am, I get to be intentional with who I help and how I help. So I have it’s on my website for organizations that they think that their team could benefit from a, a space to really unpack. See what’s going on for them as individuals and as teams so that they can better navigate this time that we’re in.

    I would love to do it for Merkley’s campaign. I have an offer out to Janelle Bynum’s campaign. And I believe that, when we can access our greater humanity that we are, we’re, we are not only going to meet this moment, we’re going to show ourselves what we are capable of as a species.

    And this is what this moment is calling for us to do. What is, what has been? We don’t have to continue. We can do this differently. And to do that we need to be able to think collectively. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: And that makes me optimistic, and I think you’re here on this podcast and I’m so delighted and having listened to other people’s stories, I think another thing that makes me optimistic is there’s so many people out there doing wonderful things and sometimes.

    It’s this collective, it’s like a collective underground of people we haven’t seen, but they’re in their space doing their thing and knowing that there’s so many people who are doing this. And then another thing that, and my heart breaks for some of these people, but the, the people’s particularly who are out there publicly who are getting threats, who are.

    Have had things happen that are scaring their families and yet they keep speaking and they keep going and you’re there to help them through that as well. That makes me optimistic. And Jane Goodall was in Portland area. She was in Salem last year shortly before she passed away. And one of the things she said among all the beautiful things about what she noticed in nature, she said regimes end.

    And there’s like this collective gasp sigh from the audience. It’s like, okay, we can take that and say, okay, how and how soon and how do things change it? It’s up to us. It’s up to speaking out. So thank you for giving people the strength to do that a lot is in the show notes. How can people reach you and if you wouldn’t mind saying what your website is, but also how can people reach you and what more would you like to add?

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Thank you. So my website is TransformativeWellbeingCoaching.com. And then I have my LinkedIn profile. I have an aversion to social media. I boycotting meta. That’s one of the many things that I am embracing doing. So you’re not gonna find me on social media very much, but I do have a presence on LinkedIn.

    I offer a, a free introductory session. A half hour to just see if we’re a good fit, because I’m not gonna be a great coach for everybody. There are a lot of other coaches that are phenomenal that are out there, and I know many of them. So I invite people to to meet with me and to see if there’s a synergy and to to begin or continue the journey that they’re already on.

    And I also wanna just. Reflect on what you shared. There are so many people doing so much good right now, and there is such a big upwelling that is happening and that we don’t hear about it because of what bleeds leads, and to be able to shine a light on it like you did. Thank you for that because we need to know that we are not alone, that we’re incredible, and we’re just, we are the majority and we are going to.

    We’re going to find our way forward. I believe in us wholeheartedly. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: That is a beautiful thing to say. Oh, thank you so very, very much. Thank you for being there. Thank you for offering people a chance to get to know you and know if it’s a good fit. I believe in that as well. It mighty measure. I can’t say I can do X, Y, Z for a company unless, and people, unless I understand where they’re coming from, because there’s so many variables in individualities.

    So finding the fit is where the magic is as well. And I know you bring a lot of magic. So the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or deceased up to three other people, so you have a table of four, who would it be and who would they be and why? 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Oh. So hard to narrow it down. I, I would, so my getting sober and working and doing all that work, Buddhism has been a something that has really helped me through this journey and his holiness of Dalai Lama, who I’ve had the honor of seeing multiple times.

    His way of presenting the dharma really helped me metabolize some of the critical teachings that make sense for me. And that, plus he’s just, he’s delightful. He’s got an incredible sense of humor. And I would give anything to have him and sit at a table with him. That would be absolutely yes.

    And then I would love, I, so Bell Hooks is one that I just, I have such a reverence for. She found a way to really merge together. Love and activism and just her way of intersectionality and her capacity to hold the frustration of living as a woman of color, and LGBT community, just like all that she navigated and then to find love as the the salve.

    I find so much wisdom from watching and reading her her works and just her own journey. I would love to have bell hooks at my table. And then my last right now it would be my beloved Aunt Sissy who we lost about it’ll be four years this this November. She was, she was the one that got me right outta the gate, and she had unconditional positive regard for me my entire life.

    She she’s, she, without her, I would not still be here today. And I miss her deeply. I am so grateful to have been able to be with her in hospice and to navigate her journey at its conclusion and what a gift it was to have been there. And to have, she was, she traveled the world. She went to like 63 countries and just unlike, as a bartender, she didn’t, she did things so scrappy and was just so loved and adored by people all over the world.

    And she’s one of my most, most favorite humans. So I, any chance to have her in my presence, I would give anything for. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: What a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I was also thinking when you were and I are together we talk about some heavy topics, but we laugh a lot. And when you mentioned the Dalai Lama, I remember the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu and the Pope had been together and it was on some, some news program.

    They were laughing. I remember just Desmond Tutu talking about some heavy things and laughing at the right times about the right things. And the Dalai Lama was in Portland years ago, long before COVID and hearing him giggle about something and the previous Pope, and I think the one now too, that it’s a beautiful thing and that’s what you bring as well.

    You very in depth. You know how to talk about some really deep issues and also bring laughter to the forefront, and you’re one of the people that makes me optimistic. 

    Thank you, Kim. 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: It’s mutual. Thank 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: you, my dear friend. So everyone thank you for being here. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, signing off with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and I’m at TheMightyMeasure.com.

    Thank you so much for listening to Heather Beiden Jacobs a beautiful soul in our world. 

    Heather Beiden Jacobs: Take care. 

    Kim Allchurch Fick: Have a good day. Bye. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Heather Beiden Jacobs

    Headshot of Heather Beiden Jacobs. Heather is smiling and looking at the camera wearing a dark top and a bright blue scarf.

    Heather Jacobs is a wellbeing coach who helps mission‑driven individuals take radically good care of themselves — because in a moment this demanding of our clarity and courage, self‑care isn’t a luxury, it’s strategic infrastructure.

    A lifelong activist and an eternal optimist grounded in reality, she supports organizers, nonprofit leaders, and purpose‑driven change agents seeking balance, resilience, and renewed purpose.

    Based in the Portland metro area, Heather brings a grounded presence and a gift for metaphor that makes complex experiences easier to navigate. Her coaching creates a clearing where people can breathe, reflect, and flourish.

    Website
    LinkedIn
  • Do Your Part: Sustainable Social Impact Leadership in a Time of Polycrisis with Tessa Bridge

    Do Your Part: Sustainable Social Impact Leadership in a Time of Polycrisis with Tessa Bridge

    Tessa Bridge joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a follow-up discussion about her book “Do Your Part: Bold, Sustainable Leadership for Social Impact Leaders in a Time of Polycrisis.” Bridge describes writing the resource she needed when she felt overextended in vulnerable leadership roles and couldn’t find guidance at the intersection of values-based work and exhaustion. She frames today’s “polycrisis” as requiring a shift from individual heroics and constant sprinting to grounded, regulated, collective leadership, including tools like the “window of tolerance” to recognize hyper- and hypo-arousal and return to clear thinking. The book includes research, interviews, and case studies on issues like attachment to workplace community, internalized pressure, and unjust systems creating impossible expectations. Bridge shares optimism about human-centered, interdependent leadership and invites readers to clarify what’s theirs to do, seek generative communities, and connect via her website, LinkedIn, and newsletter; she names three influential authors she’d dine with.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome Back Tessa

    00:32 Why She Wrote It

    02:43 Leading in Polycrisis

    06:04 Window of Tolerance

    10:01 Do Your Part

    14:10 Writing and Research

    18:55 Community and Belonging

    22:22 Hope and Optimism

    24:51 Put the Book to Work

    28:06 Where to Find Tessa

    30:01 Dream Author Dinner

    32:26 Closing Thanks

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is a very new type of podcast. This is a return guest, Tessa Bridge. And the reason this is a return is because she wrote a book called Do Your Part, so we’re gonna focus on how we can all do our part. Tessa, welcome. It’s so good to see you again. 

    Tessa Bridge: So happy to be here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, it’s good to see you tell us about the book journey.

    How, what was the spark? What has been the journey? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. At its heart, this is a book that I needed some time ago when I was at a place where I felt like I had overextended myself. I was doing a lot of things that I really cared deeply about, that were really a reflection of who I am and my values and how I wanna show up in the world.

    And I was also. Feeling the pressure of that, right? Both the pressure I put on myself and the very real pressures of having stepped out into vulnerable, exposed leadership roles on a number of fronts at the same time. And when I was in that place, I. I was like really looking around for resources.

    ’cause I felt like, am I the only person on the planet who was feeling the way that I’m feeling? And there were things that I found helpful in different resources, but I never really found something that spoke specifically to the intersection of. Doing values-based, mission-based work that is really tied to your sense of self, your identity, your community, your people, and feeling like you are overextended, stretched, exhausted, and just can’t keep going at the pace you’re going.

    And that was many years ago. I’ve done a lot of my own personal work. I’ve also done a lot of work with. Clients in my coaching practice since then who I have learned, have similar stories, and so I really just felt compelled to create the resource that I wanted so that hopefully people who read this book and are in that place feel less alone.

    And. Can have a bit of a roadmap of what they can do and how they can understand the experience they’re having. Put some language to that and then actually take some steps to continue to show up in the way that they want and that they think of themselves, but also find some space to take care of themselves and build in a more sustainable approach to what that leadership can look like.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That sounds like a book for these times. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you very much for that. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What problems are you solving for people with the book and what was it like to write it? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. I’ll start with the first part of that question, I think. The problem that I’m solving with this book is the times that we’re living in, in a lot of ways, and there is so much need.

    The subtitle of the book is Bold, sustainable Leadership for Social Impact Leaders in a Time of Poly Crisis, and it felt really important to situate. In this reality of poly crisis that we’re living in, right? We have many overlapping crises that are influencing each other and happening at the same time.

    And a lot of need. There’s a lot of needed action on many fronts at once, and that is a really overwhelming context to be in social impact leadership. It also requires a different type of leadership and a different leadership mentality than may have worked for many of us in the past. A lot of the folks I coach, and I have this myself, are like real doers, right?

    We wanna get our hands dirty, we wanna come up with action plans. We are high achievers. We know what we want. We’re scrappy, we’re used to making it work. And that approach. Is helpful, right? It does work to a certain extent, but when we are in a crisis like this that has waves that is continuous and where there’s not really a point where we’re gonna be like, and that is now done, that mentality can actually really lead to exhaustion and burnout.

    If we are constantly trying to do what we’re, what I call like getting over the hill I’m gonna just get through this and then I’ll take a rest. I’m gonna get through this, and then I’ll make sure to prioritize dinner with my family. I’m gonna make it to the next deadline, and then I’m gonna start exercising regularly, or whatever the self-care piece is that’s important for you.

    If we keep that mentality of I’m just gonna push full throttle until I get over the hill, we’re gonna burn out before we get to where we’re trying to go. So the book is really trying to argue that we need to build more sustainability. Into our leadership style precisely because of the urgent moment that we’re living in, and that that is not selfish or separate from building a just world.

    It’s actually part of how we build a just world. So I’m really trying to do some deep reframing around what it means to be committed, what it means to show up, what it means to be engaged so that we can get to the just world we’re trying to build. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And you used the word poly. Poly meaning mini crisis.

    Yes, mini crises. And what’s resonating with me as you talk is the overwhelm of the fire hose. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Fire hoses. Yes. They’re coming from multiple directions. They’re domestic, they’re international, they’re local. They’re somebody else’s problem. There are a problem. And how that can be. Painful and then numbing sometimes.

    And we are recording this in June of 2026, and I find that people respond to things in different ways. And sometimes it’s about timing. Sometimes I feel like I can go full throttle and be activist and then sometimes it’s just I have to get my own work done too. I’ve gotta survive, I’ve gotta be joyful for my clients and I find that with other people as well.

    How does, how do you, in the book, how do you wrap your head around all these multiplicities of 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: of feelings that can happen to people even in any given day. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. It’s an excellent point and it’s something I talk about head on in the book. So there’s a couple ways that I think about this. One is when we are in this overstimulated loud, often scary context.

    I would argue that it is even more important as people in leadership, that we are the most grounded, the most centered that we can be, and that becomes part of our responsibility. I would argue as a leader, when we are regulated, we can make clear decisions, we can make strategic decisions. And we can create that grounding force for our teams and our organizations.

    When we are dysregulated, when we are anxious, when we are overwhelmed, we bring that energy into everything we’re doing. Even if we are doing that with the best of intentions, because we are, frantically trying to get things done, and this is not a judgment of feeling overwhelmed. We are all feeling overwhelmed in many ways in this moment.

    It just means it’s even more important for us to build these regulating practices. The awareness around, oh, I might be feeling dysregulated right now. I need to do something about that and prioritize that into our daily leadership practices. So there’s a chapter in the book where I talk about this concept called the window of tolerance, which some of the listeners may be familiar with, which is the idea that this is a window in which we are able to access our best thinking.

    And when we are overwhelmed, overstimulated in a more fight or flight space in our body, we can go out of our window in two directions. We can go up into what’s called hyper arousal, which is where our thoughts are spiraling. We’re moving really fast. Maybe we’re like, we’ve gotta get to action.

    We might be feeling panicked in our bodies. You’re tossing and turning in the middle of the night, that’s hyper arousal. You can also go below your window, which is called hypo arousal, which is that sense of shutting down, disengaging, freezing, kinda what you were talking about. Just like I just gotta put my blinders on.

    I just can’t manage this. You might feel lethargic. Those are both forms of dysregulation, and so one of the things we can do is build awareness of when we might have moved outside of our windows and build tools to come back into that centered optimal space. Before we start making choices and decisions.

    So even just having the understanding of that framework, the language, and then some of those strategies to come back to that center is really critical for leaders. And I would also argue it’s something we can do with our teams. Like we can say, for example, what, where is everybody? On this spectrum, how, what tools are we using together and individually to reregulate ourselves, because that is part of how we resist the fire hose that you’re talking about, is by becoming as grounded as we possibly can.

    So that’s just one very practical thing that I mentioned in the book. There are many other ideas of how how to navigate this. But again, that, that idea that being grounded is part of. What we do to move through this strategically, intentionally, and not so reactively. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it sounds like it’s important for teams, but also important for life, for families, for friends, for 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: All of us to think about it that way. And I also see. Other people are talking about this and consultants are trying to work this into their leadership programs, is to really talk about how reality is becoming infused into our workspace. Yeah. What does that look like, and what does it mean to actually sit and talk to each other and acknowledge, 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: acknowledge how people are feeling and everybody’s in a little bit different space.

    Tessa Bridge: That’s right. 

    And in the book, like the title do Your part is really about getting clear on what’s yours to do, what are your skills, strengths, talents, sphere of influence? What are the things that you are going to do to move forward and what are the things that maybe need to get done, but you are not the best person to do them, or you don’t have the capacity to, and the shift that I wanna invite.

    Folks who are reading the book or listening to this podcast into is that this is a collective effort. Individual heroics are not gonna be the thing that get us to where we wanna go. We all have to do our part, and we have to trust that there are other people who are moving the balls that we’re not moving.

    And so part of building that groundedness, both inside of work and outside of work is really getting clear on what you’re committing to and why, and then doing those things well and then all the other things that come. Making very planful choices about whether you take them on or not. Because when we divide our energy and divide our focus, we end up doing many things not that well versus when we pick the things that we are doing, ’cause we are well positioned to do them, we can really make a lot of progress, which both helps us feel the power and agency we have.

    And allows progress to be made. And then someone else, or another organization or another group gets to focus on the other pieces. And I think we live in a very individualistic society where we really love the idea of the hero leader, the solitary leader who’s gonna swoop in and save the day and fight the good fight.

    And we want to be that leader often, and we wanna be led by that person. And part of what. It’s actually gonna move us through this poly crisis is shifting our mentality around how these things get done to a more interdependent and collectivist approach. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And this aligns with what I’m seeing in community and two things as a member of the A SPN, the American Sustainable Business Network on a previous podcast we had Camilla Taylor, who’s the executive director and one of.

    Her points was, she was talking about nonpartisan activism and she said if you call a legislator and say, I’m a business owner, that carries some weight, so I had to get our talking points together and they created a kit to make things easier for people to sit down with a cup of tea or coffee and go through some things daily, taking the logistics.

    Out of it. Yeah. That makes people maybe not take action steps. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: But making it simple wherever we are to be able to do that. I’d see that with your book, there’s some guidance for how to make things easier and also with the, i’m on the board of On Purpose, Oregon formerly B Local PDX.

    So it’s more than B Corps, but we’re talking about what is common ground. How can we work with other organizations that are pointed in different directions, but share our voices. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: To do things. And a lot of this is linked arms. It’s not one liter. Yes. And I see that coming from your book as well.

    Tessa Bridge: Yes, definitely. It’s building the ecosystem, right and knowing who that players in the ecosystem are. And part of it’s also who do you call when you need help in a certain area or who do you refer something to? Or if somebody comes to you with a request, can you take this on? And you don’t have the capacity or you’re not the best fit for it, you can say, this isn’t the right time for me, but here’s somebody else who could help with that.

    And building that. Collective shared way of moving the ball forward. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I really love that thought. And what did have been the obstacles, not only to writing the book promoting a book that’s always very intense. Yeah. But what have been some obstacles along the way and. Was it difficult to research?

    This was, 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What were you finding? What was spoke to you what was bs? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. What 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: was some 

    Tessa Bridge: obstacles? Great question. Getting outta my own way, it’s always the biggest obstacle, right? To doing this, I was really encouraged to do this by a mentor of mine, which I’m so grateful for, and.

    Figuring out like what my own approach to this would be. There is a lot of research in the book. It was really important to me to take the lived experience that I know is true because I’ve lived it and because I’ve coached people through it and to situate that sort of root that in.

    Academic study around like, how do our brains work? What does burnout look like in different fields? What does burnout look like in the activist space? Who are some of the thought leaders who have really shaped the way that I think and understand the world? And tying that into that really deeply rooted experience.

    I also, did interviews with social impact leaders and created case studies throughout the book because I really wanted this to feel like. A mirror that like people would, not everything is gonna resonate with every person, but over the course of the book, there will be things that I hope many of the readers will be like, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me.

    Because I think part of what when we are in that stuck place of feeling like we can’t see a path. We can’t see an off ramp other than to just keep doing the thing we’re doing, which we know isn’t working for us anymore. That sense of isolation can be so like acute and painful. Creating many connection points both in the research, in the lived experience, in the stories that are in the book and in the tools really was how I wanted to build this.

    Web of connection so that people realize this is a shared experience that they’re having and it’s not really about them. Another big theme in the book is around like the intersection of the societal forces and the individual pressure we put on ourselves. And so often when we are struggling.

    Personally and professionally, we take that internally. We think that’s about us. We think I never should have taken this job to begin with. I’m just not cut out for this. I. Can I even do this thing? We turn that voice on ourselves and we all have areas we could grow. We all make mistakes sometimes that’s true, and we are doing powerful work inside of a system that is not really designed for us to succeed.

    So when we really are able to meet, to name. What are the societal forces, these unjust systems that mean that we keep running into again and again and again? Impossible expectations, like this idea of constantly needing to do more with less, right? Or deliver on timelines that aren’t realistic. And then when we struggle to do that, we think I’m not good enough.

    But is that really about us? To a large extent, it’s not. So again. Building the language and the understanding of where some of the internalized beliefs that we have come from so that we can see them and be more gentle with ourselves at three o’clock in the morning when we’re tossing and turning in bed and really say I am doing my best.

    I am doing what I set out to do. I am a human being. I’m gonna learn as I go. And. That is what I commit to is continuing to show up, not in getting everything perfect and having the perfect outcome every time, and controlling everything. That’s another big theme in the book is that when we are afraid, we reach for control and that can make us very tight.

    And when we’re tight, it’s really hard for us to be creative. It’s really hard for us to be flexible to innovate. To work together. All of these pieces I think have been around for a very long time. They’re not new and they’re getting amplified. The volume dial is very high because of the pressures and the high stakes of the moment that we’re living in.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, that’s so well said. 

    Tessa Bridge: Thank you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you for that and listening to it, it makes me a wanna read the book, but also step back and examine or can I calm myself down to be effective. Instead of being frantic and ruminating and things that we do. And I’ve learned my own tricks. Everybody has their own.

    Yeah. I find mine in nature. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: definitely. If I get really keyed up, I’m going to go out and take a walk and 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Turn on my ebirds so I can see Yeah. Who’s chattering and 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it helps. It really does. Even if it’s 10 minutes or an hour pulling weeds even, it’s just touching ground. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Another thing is a good conversation with a friend. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Those kind of things can really help. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So is there, you mentioned case studies, is there a standout case study you might wanna summarize or mention at this point? 

    Tessa Bridge: A theme in the book that we haven’t talked yet it’s about community and the role that relationships play

    in both positive and challenging ways in how we show up in this. So one of the case studies in the book is is a character who is in a role that she knows is not the right fit for her, but she feels very connected to the her team and to the people she works with. And those are relationships that she really treasures.

    And so she. Is having a really hard time accepting the fact that it might be time for her to move on because it feels like a betrayal of the people who she really loves and is connected to. And that felt really important to me to include because one of the things that happens in social impact work is that we get really attached to each other and that is really beautiful.

    And so many of my close relationships come from organizing spaces come from, working in, nonprofit or other social impact spaces where you’re in these scrappy, in the trenches roles. You’re staying up late with people, you know their families. You’re like doing this important work together.

    Your values and your relationships become very enmeshed and it can also. On the flip side of that coin lead to this sense like if I leave or if I try to set more boundaries, or if I try to show up in a different way, I’m gonna lose my community. I’m gonna lose belonging. The people who mean the most to me are gonna judge me.

    And so that can be a very scary and painful. To consider. And so I think again, it’s inviting in the gentleness, it’s inviting in the gentleness with each other, like allowing each other space when we do need to step a step back or do less or just be in a season of slowing down so that we can then be in a season in the future of taking on more, having more understanding of that rather than judgment of that.

    I think it also speaks to, building communities that are modeling the way we wanna be in the world, right? So the people who surround us, you mentioned having a conversation with a friend. It’s like the friends we’re having conversations with. We wanna make sure that those are people who are also prioritizing.

    Bold action and sustainable leadership at the same time, right? If we are only in spaces that are expecting us to be, go, go, go all the time doing everything in high urgency, in high alert, then it’s gonna be very, very hard for us to find space to step back because it feels out of alignment with the people that we are in.

    So part of what I think about in the book is. For people who are on that edge of, I just can’t keep doing this. Finding communities that are going to validate that there are ways to continue to show up boldly and bravely to continue to be engaged and also to prioritize wellbeing, sustainability, long-term thinking, not just urgency, sprints.

    It’s part of how we shift the culture in our organizations and for ourselves. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s beautifully stated, and every time you say something I, my brain is going off with, oh, I can see how this is so compelling and so truly important. And recognizing that people are in different spaces at different times.

    Yeah. And giving some grace for that. Yeah. And we all have lives and other things to deal with. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What, with all this, what makes you optimistic? Oh. 

    Tessa Bridge: I’m an optimist. I just, find a way to be hopeful no matter what. And I do think that’s my organizing back background because I think I think we have so much more agency than we give ourselves credit for often, even in the moments where it feels like, okay, like that fire hose is streaming at us and it feels like we, we maybe are in a more reactive space, like we hold a lot of power in the sphere that we operate in, and that really does make me feel hopeful and I think in some ways. As I said, none of this is new, right? Like these are things that we have been working through for decades, if not more, and are really becoming very loud right now.

    And in that I think there’s a real opportunity to do the deep learning that we need to do in order to move forward from this place in a way that it’s gonna actually really. Move us where we wanna go, right? Decouple from some of these very capitalistic individual ideas of what it means to be to produce, to create outcomes where our worth comes from.

    And instead, root in a more collective, more sustainable, more term, more gentle and care filled. Human way of leading, and I think there’s a lot of hunger for that. I think people are really wanting that, and I think the leaders who are able to embody that in their own style, because it doesn’t have to look the same for everybody.

    Draw people to them. And I think that’s exciting. I feel excited. And I think we have some really amazing models of that happening on the national stage, what it looks like to really embody human-centered kind, compassionate leadership. And I think we are seeing that that is both effective and that that is what people are drawn to.

    I have a lot of hope. I have a lot of hope and optimism, even though we’re in a difficult moment. I think this is one of those things that is gonna help to clarify what is important to us and help us to enter the next chapter from a really grounded and clear place that’s gonna get us where we need to go.

    Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And besides reading the book, what do you hope. That people do with the book? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. Well, like I said a huge theme of this project for me is for people to feel less alone. So I think one of the things that I’m hoping comes out of people reading the book or listening to this podcast is a resonance and a sense of I deserve to feel less bad.

    I’m not gonna give up on what I committed to. I’m not gonna change what I believe in. I’m gonna keep being a person who shows up, and that doesn’t have to mean that I feel bad. So whether that’s finding a coach who can support you to work through that, whether that’s finding other activists, organizers, leaders, community groups who are embodying that, just leaning into the places that that, that don’t feel extractive and that feel.

    Generative human compassionate that fill you up, that where you leave feeling more energized than when you arrived. Find those places and they exist. They exist. You might have to look in different places than you maybe have before, but they definitely exist to get that support for yourself because I think.

    The more we can nourish ourselves and care for ourselves, the more effective we’re gonna be. So whatever that looks like for you, that, that’s what I’d love to invite the listeners to do. And I think this idea of getting really clear on what is yours, what is the part that you have to play here, and relentlessly doing that and knowing that you are doing your part.

    And you can fall into bed at night knowing that you are doing your part and that you’re gonna keep doing that instead of expecting ourselves to do it all. And constantly feeling like we’re not doing enough. I think those are maybe some of the biggest takeaways that I want for people and for them to find the places that reinforce that and like reverberate on that frequency.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, reverberated on that frequency. And I also hope for me, because this is new, I’m a neophyte podcaster, but we’re in, beyond episode 25. At this point, I’ve got the best seat in the house, and I hope that this also resonates as a way of doing what you just said, being an activist part. And sometimes it’s not my voice that matters, it’s amplifying others.

    Yeah. So that’s one of the things I hope I’m contributing. And sometimes we don’t know how does it land and how will it land at a different time? But trying, 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think is part of the magic. Yeah. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, absolutely. You don’t know what the ripples are gonna be. You don’t know when something is gonna connect for somebody down the line or, what in this book, someone’s gonna five years from now be like, oh, I, where did I read that? And then go pull it off the shelf. Their shelf and that’s gonna be the moment that they need that tool. So all the things we’re putting out into the world, you spoke about hope. That is an exercise in hopefulness, right?

    That I’m putting out something, that you are putting out something that someone is gonna need, and that resource will be there for them in that moment. And like how beautiful is that, that we’re creating that web for people? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, absolutely. So how can people reach you and how can they get the book? Yes. 

    Tessa Bridge: So the book is available where books are sold.

    You can get it at your independent books bookstore bookshop.org. It’s also available on Amazon. I would encourage folks to connect with me on LinkedIn. You can just look for me, Tessa Bridge. Also you can go to my website, which is. Tessa bridge coaching.com. And I really would love for folks to join my newsletter because I am doing like a mini book tour.

    And so I’ll be having some events, different podcasts, different offerings and if you join the newsletter, then you will know about all of those. And so hopefully we can meet in the real world at some point, which I would love. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And is the newsletter on tosser bridge consulting 

    Tessa Bridge: com? Yeah, it’s on the website.

    Yep. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: As it should be. And what else would you like to share before the final question? 

    Tessa Bridge: We’ve covered so much. I guess I’ll just say, everything in this book is something that. It’s a path that I have walked and in writing it and synthesizing it and doing the research for it was really clarifying for me also about what, how all these different threads of my life up until this point have come together to situate me right in this moment.

    And I really do feel like. The journeys we walk varied as they are. Prepare us for what we do next, and I feel extremely grateful to have had the experience I have so that I can support people who are in. This painful moment right now so they can feel less alone and can feel like there are things that they can do that are within their power.

    Even the challenging moments, the tricky moments I really think get us to where we are. And I think this book has really helped me to see that in my journey. And so I’m just really grateful to be able to show up and support people who need it. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: You do and appreciate it so much.

    So a little shift on the final question. Yes. For you, if you could have dinner with any authors you admire living or deceased up to three, who would they be and why? 

    Tessa Bridge: Great question. Okay. So all of these are people who are referenced in the book. These are, when I talked about like the thought leaders who have changed how I think about things.

    There’s one author Julianne Taylor Shore who writes a book, wrote a book called Setting Boundaries That Stick, which I really recommend. I recommend it to a lot of my clients. And she talks about this concept of a psychological boundary, which is around what we let in. Often we think of boundaries as what do we agree to out in the world, but she talks about boundaries as what do we let in?

    And she, she frames these questions before we let feedback in. Ask yourself, is this true and is this about you? And that has been like a really revolutionary concept from me personally, and I offer that to a lot of my clients. So I would love to invite. Also Adrian Marie Brown. Her book Emergent Strategy was really powerful for me and the concept of fractals.

    And that what we do at the small reflects at the large right, the way we talk to our kids at the dinner table, the way we organize on our block, the culture we create in our organizations the way we speak to ourselves. All of that reflects into the large. And that’s something that I’ve really taken to heart and I think is infused throughout this book, that mentality.

    And then the third person is Maurice Mitchell, executive director of the Work Fa Working Families Party. And he wrote this book, this article, building resilient organizations that talk talks about a lot of the pitfalls that progressive organizations tend to fall into. I referenced that also in the book and it really helped to put language to some of the things that I’ve experienced myself and also help.

    Created a framework for me for situating both the individual work that we need to do with ourselves, the interpersonal work we do with each other, and the bigger macro work we need to be doing as we’re fighting for justice in our political system and in our economic system and our, in our broader society.

    So I think a dinner party with those three would be really amazing if anyone’s listening and wants to come. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh gosh, I’d love to be there too. Tessa, you are a delight. Thank you for the work. I do think that writing a book is difficult. I know I’ve got one in me and guess what’s never happened yet is write, actually writing it.

    I admire authors. I admire you. I really thank you for being here and giving us this treasure of a book to be able to. Talk with each other about and give ourselves some ways to move forward. Thank you, so I appreciate it. Thank you everyone. This is Kim Alrich flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and please join me@themightymeasure.com for my newsletter as well, and have a great 

    day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Tessa Bridge

    Tessa Bridge is a coach, facilitator, and founder of Tessa Bridge Coaching, where she helps social impact leaders manage the pressure to “get it right” so they can keep making an impact without burning out. She brings 15 years of experience as a public education administrator, community organizer, organizational leader, political candidate, and consultant. After facing her own burnout in high-stakes leadership roles, Tessa is now dedicated to ensuring other values-driven leaders have the tools and support they need to create lasting change without sacrificing themselves. Her work is grounded in the belief that sustainable impact starts with sustainable leadership.

    Website
    Book: Do Your Part
    LinkedIn
  • The ROI of Vulnerability and Building Cultures of Wellbeing with Adam Nemer of Simple Mental Health

    The ROI of Vulnerability and Building Cultures of Wellbeing with Adam Nemer of Simple Mental Health

    Adam Nemer, founder of Simple Mental Health and author of “Simple Mental Health: The ROI of Vulnerability,” joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about creating workplace cultures of mental wellbeing.

    Nemer recounts leading at Kaiser Permanente for nearly 20 years while struggling with severe, undiagnosed depression and anxiety after finding his father’s suicide and later his mother’s death, until a senior leader – prompted by a mental health first aid class – encouraged him to use the EAP.

    After treatment and piloting mental health first aid training for 400 employees, he normalized mental health conversations, which he says coincided with top employee engagement and KPI performance, including a five-star Medicare rating.

    He discusses stigma, generational shifts in leadership, and making wellbeing and psychological safety core values, emphasizing both the human and business cases for mental health literacy.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:17 Adam’s Kaiser Journey

    02:31 Breakdown to Breakthrough

    04:48 The Intervention Moment

    10:23 Mental Health First Aid Spark

    12:34 Training a Culture Shift

    17:04 Results and Core Values

    19:12 Workplace Stigma and Challenges

    21:27 Leading With Feelings

    22:10 Stigma Shame Silence

    23:06 Vulnerable Leadership Shift

    25:27 Mental Health Literacy Why

    28:06 B Corps Human Case

    30:08 Business Case For Wellbeing

    32:32 Small Business Ripple Effect

    35:23 Optimism And Mentors

    38:55 Book And Contact Info

    39:40 Dream Dinner Guests

    42:28 Closing Reflections

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello, this is Kim Allchurch Flick of the Mighty Measure Podcast. So delighted to have Adam Nemer here, and this podcast is a series that shows us that even seemingly small activities can have mighty impacts. Collectively, we can move change for good forward. I love sharing my optimism because of these people and their stories and driving contributions.

    I’m so excited to have Adam as a guest today. Adam has created Simple Mental Health. He’s the founder and he is also an author, former executive at Kaiser Permanente and founder of Simple Mental Health. For nearly 20 years, he led Kaiser Permanente while silently struggling with severe yet undiagnosed depression and anxiety.

    His life and leadership changed when a compassionate colleague encouraged him to seek help showing the profound impact leaders can have on their teams wellbeing. Today, Adam works with organizations across the Americas in Europe spreading mental health literacy and helping build cultures where. Both people and performances thrive.

    Today we’re gonna talk about creating cultures of mental wellbeing. Adam, it’s great to have you. 

    Adam Nemer: Oh, thanks so much, Kim. It’s great to be here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So what has been your journey and the inspirations that have brought you to what you’re doing today? 

    Adam Nemer: Oh, my journey. I, the bottom line, I was a 20 year Kaiser Permanente leader in the Pacific Northwest CFO of our care system and COO of our insurance operations up there.

    And, it was a wonderful career. I loved it. And on the one hand, I. I joke, I bleed blue. I just love the organization. They invested so heavily in, in training me to be a facilitative and psychologically safe leader. But on, on the other hand, it was a really hard 20 years, working in healthcare, like in any.

    Entrepreneurial. Any business environment? No. No Environment’s harder than the other. We just say that ours is so hard, right? In this constant. Challenge to reduce costs, improve quality, improve service. It was, for the first 15 years I was doing everything I could to become a more psychological, safe, facilitative leader.

    But it really, and our performance was improving on our teams, right? But it wasn’t until. For the love of the universe, Kim, I had a complete, I had a complacent, I had a complete emotional breakdown, right? Woo. Complete emotional breakdown, which helped, which, which accidentally set me on a leadership path.

    That two years later, we had the highest employee engagement in Kaiser Permanente’s Health Plan nationwide. We had the highest on almost every KPI for health plan operations. We were number one. We were the highest performing Medicare rated health plan in the Northwest. We were only five star Medicare rated plan.

    We were, we’re the top 6% rated Medicare plans nationwide. So I’m going my whole career learning all this stuff about psychological safe leadership. I’m doing everything I can. Not knowing that this whole time I’m also struggling with severe mental illness, then boom, I have this emotional crisis complete.

    Gotta work for six months complete out of it. And then over the next two years, as part of my recovery process, it just tweaked a few things about my leadership that completely changed our performance. And so I, I did a lot of keynote talking and a lot of work within Kaiser for a few years sharing the story.

    Then I just decided that’s what I wanna do for a living. I was a, I, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a ski bum, work with my, and work with my dad. The next thing you know, I’m like the CFO of a four and half billion dollar company, right? So I found my calling. I, so I love this. So that’s what I do now, help organizations create cultures and mental wellbeing, improve their performance.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is beautiful. And also I think rare. I’ve been in, I’ve been in the corporate world as many people have, and there’s varying degrees of caring or not, and there’s varying degrees of pressure or not. There’s varying degrees of burnout and not, and I remember a lot of people, myself included, who sometimes.

    Thought this is gonna burn me into the ground, but I dare not say anything. I dare not behave as though things aren’t just totally great. And I was wondering, was there help for you along the way when you had your crisis, were other people involved or,

    Adam Nemer: so let me paint a little background. So you understand what happened at, I had an intervention. I, in a way, I kind of had an intervention, right? So one morning on a Monday, I showed up at work at seven 30 ish in the morning, and I got a. On my calendar, a meeting at eight 30 in the morning with one of our national leaders.

    My boss for the health plan here in Portland, right at eight, at 8, 8 15 in the morning. I had no idea about this. And when I got to his office 20 minutes later I walked in the door and the first thing he said to me is, Hey man, how are you doing right now? I, let me go back for a second so I can paint the background to, to this.

    I had, when I walked in that room that morning, I had no idea that I had spent the last 18 years struggling with.

    Severe, but undiagnosed depression and anxiety. When I was a 29-year-old kid in Portland, Oregon and getting groomed to run my family business, I, my I found my dad after he died of suicide. He was my best friend, my business partner, the dude I always wanna be just like, and at that crossroads of my life where I needed it the most, and it would’ve prevented so much pain down the road. I only had a few therapy sessions going off in the world. I got an MBA got married. I had this amazing, remarkable Kaiser Permanente career. I led a national labor negotiation finance team.

    I led our implementation of electronic medical records in the Northwest. I got to be the CFO of our hospitals in the northwest, our CFO of our health system. Then our run, our health plan up there. On the outside it looked like I had a dream life. On the inside, I was one fricking hot mess and I had no idea.

    I couldn’t control my emotions. I had heart pain. I was really sick all the time. It was, I checked with hindsight, every box of severe mental illness for all those 18 years, but I had no idea. I was just moving along thinking life sucks. So then about three weeks before I showed up that Monday morning, and that guy has me join him in his office.

    I found my mom after she passed away, she’d really struggled with substance use and a lot of serious mental I issues. She didn’t die of suicide, but she didn’t die from trying to live. And what happened is after all those 18 years of severe mental illness, after finding that suicide, finding my mom’s passing.

    What happened is in those in the hours and days afterwards, it put me into a complete state of emotional collapse. By then, I’d been promoted. I was running the operations of our health plan in the northwest and I started, I started wearing Levi’s to work t-shirts. Pretty sure I wore Birkenstock sandals a few days.

    If I shaved, I’d miss half my face. I just looked like hell hell, it looked like I was gonna, the beach. Not going to work. So that’s what had, that was me. So I show, that was my 18 years, and then I had this triggering event, and I was in a complete state of emotional collapse. And I show up on a Monday morning and I had no id, I knew I, I just didn’t know that I was sick, right.

    I had no idea what was going on. So I walk into David’s office and he’s like, and when I walk in, I look like shit. Excuse my language, man. I’m wearing my hair. When I had hair, it was like I just looked, I looked bad walking in, right? So I walk in just looking like hell, first thing Monday morning and he’s like, Hey man, how you doing?

    I’m like, I’m doing great. He says, so, yeah. I know about you finding your dad’s suicide now, and I know about you. You just found your mom’s passing. Are you seeing a therapist? Is that why you’re doing so well? And I’m like, I don’t need to see a therapist. I’m doing great. He says yeah, I get that Adam, but do you know the signs to look for in yourself in case you might need to get some help down the road?

    As I say, no, he like pulls out of his pocket and slides across the desk, our EAP business card, and he is like, give folks that e why don’t you give the folks at EAPA call? It can’t hurt. You’ve had these. Traumatic life experiences, and you should at least know the signs and symptoms to look for in yourself in case you might need to get some help down the road.

    Next day, I left his office saying thank you. I was so out of it. I had no idea what he was doing, as obvious as it was saw the EAP counselor. A few days later. And I really crashed there. ’cause that’s where I realized in his office, going through the checklist that I had, I was really sick.

    And that was the beginning of my last eight year recovery journey. And, to land the story though land the plane of the story, I guess should say is this National Kaiser leader, he said, did somebody have an impact to make this happen for you? So David, he didn’t just show up on a Monday morning and call me into his office and ask me how I was feeling.

    Here’s what happened, right? The day before on Sunday, he went to church and in church on Sunday morning they went to, he had a mental health first aid class.

    Sit there. Oh yes. I can’t believe the universe works like this. He’s sitting there and there, this mental health first aid class at his church, and they’re going through the signs and symptoms and he’s like, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam. Oh my god, M’s in a lot of trouble. Next part of the class, they teach you how to approach somebody in a safe, thoughtful, caring, nonjudgmental manner is when he came up with that idea of handing me the EAP business card the next day.

    So a senior leader in a. $90 billion business. I joke, I’m like, David went to church one day. He put mental health literacy in his professional toolbox. We all have physical health literacy in our professional toolboxes. If someone was choking in a board meeting, we’d know how to save their life.

    So he just went to church one day, put a little mental health literacy in his toolbox. Next day in a five minute conversation, helped change my life. So, you talk about, you’re mentioning the small activities and the small actions that leaders can take that make a really big difference to these five minute conversations.

    And I left Kaiser after a, I really love the organization. It’s my friends and family. I joke, I still, I, I bleed blue. I just, that’s such a lovely place. But I left there to start an organization, to teach leaders how to have five minute conversations like David had with me and to teach ’em.

    How to normalize the topic of mental health on their team so that they create cultures of mental wellbeing so that it actually not only improves the lives of their teammates, but improves performance and that’s really, the. The last piece of my background is this performance piece, and this is so accidental, Kim.

    Oh I gotta tell you, sometimes my kids are like, dad, you’re just some doofy old guy. How. No I, some things are just accidental sometimes. So what happened is after I saw that EEP counselor, I took about six weeks off of work, right? Starting antidepressants, therapy, all of that. And when I ca and when I came back to work, I,

    I started to think about leadership differently. To help break the stigma to get me into therapy, the psychiatrist and therapist had to teach me some basic facts, and these are gonna blow all of you and all your listeners away. They still blow me away. Every year, more than a quarter of a Americans experience a clinically diagnosable mental illness, but less than half get help, and the average time period from the onset of symptoms to getting help is 11 years.

    So when I came back to work, I just started thinking about leadership differently, right? I had maybe 400 ish people on our teams in the northwest, in the health planet back then. And so that meant I had a hundred of my colleagues, my, my friends, really my brothers and sisters who were gonna be in just as much discomfort and pain as I’m in.

    And so few of us were gonna get help and I’m like. Holy smokes. What if I what? What if we’re gonna have a hundred people with heart disease, cancer, diabetes? Now you do something. And so I volunteered to pilot for Kaiser nationwide to. Mental health First aid at work-like program, we trained all 400. We took all 400 people outta work.

    In half day sessions, we trained everybody in the core tenets of mental health. First aid by these are classes with executives, managers, staff all intermixed together. And over the course of two weeks, we taught everybody the core tenets of mental health for state, how to recognize the signs that someone might be struggling.

    How to approach them in a safe, thoughtful, caring, nonjudgmental manner while providing hope that recovery is possible, and knowing how to guide ’em to services in the community and offered by your organization where they can get help. Basically, we all just learn how to have five minute conversations like David had with me and what happened, and this is what gets back to over the next two years, right?

    So over the next two years as a business. Running our health plan, the Northwest, the only thing that we did different over those two years than the years before is the following, right? We just kept training everybody on mental health first aid on a regular bay. We were talking about it all the time, and I didn’t do it on purpose, Kim, this was so accidental.

    I don’t think I’m the smart. I was so accidental. But you know, what happened is. So I’d be in a meeting and I’d be like, guys, I’m having an anxiety attack. I need to step out for a bit. I’m gonna go for a walk. Or guys, I’m having a really sad day, go easy on me. Or guys, I gotta leave the meeting early today.

    I don’t wanna be late for therapy appointment now. I wasn’t being authentic and vulnerable with what was going on in my life to try to be a good leader. At all. I was trying to be a good patient. I was really sick. I was so sick back then. Kim, I can’t begin to tell you. And the beginning of my therapy, I asked my therapist, what do I do if I’m having an anxiety attack at work?

    She goes, well, just tell the people that you’re around. I’m like, I can’t do that. Are you kidding me? She goes, Adam. You have not talked about this for 18 years. If you want to get better, you’re gonna have to start recognizing that it’s okay. And we just kept talking. I’m like, okay. So that’s what I did. Now, I didn’t know what was going on at the time, but with retrospect, what happened and what I learned is.

    When the senior leader of the team is open and honest about what’s going on in their mental health on a daily basis, that creates the opens up the space for everyone else to be open and honest about theirs. So what happened over those next two years? Those you think about, we have 400 employees, right?

    We’re talking about self, first those hundred, because we’re training everybody and talking about this all the time, those hundred people that would naturally have needed help, they, a lot of them naturally went and got help, right? And then all of us, because for the love of the universe, we’re talking about mental health and self-care all day long.

    Why so it was the only thing that I was talking about all day long. You get what you may, you get leaders get what you talk about. So I, we were doing performance stuff. It’s just, if it was anything else that I was talking about, it was mental health and that just meant that everybody else was talking about it, right?

    Two years later, Kim, two years later, we had the highest employee engagement stats. Talk about feedback loops with employees and wanting to create employee engagement. Our team’s had some of the highest employee engagement stands for Cross Kaiser Permanente Health Plan nationwide. We had the most engaged feeling empowered, promoted staff and it was because of this.

    We also, two years later, on almost every single key performance indicator that Kaiser Permanente tracked for health plan operations, right from time to market, to product quality, to claims processing. Our teams in the northwest were number one. Wow, we’re number one in the company. We also, two years later, we’re the highest rated Medicare health plan in the Pacific Northwest.

    We’re the only five star rated health plan in the Northwest for Medicare, and we’re top 6% nationwide. All I wanna do is get people not to hurt. But just by training everybody on some basic mental health literacy information, like David littered his church that day, and then modeling and encouraging everybody to be open and honest, just, we just changed our culture.

    You know what we do. It’s this is what I do at Simple Mental Health now. And again, I. I I don’t know that I’m actually, I know that I’m not smart enough to have created this on purpose, but what we accidentally found, and this is the work that I do with simple mental health, is help companies think through the actions that they might take if they were to add wellbeing and psychological safety to their list of corporate core values.

    Because core values drives, it’s vision. Why are we in the business mission, how we accomplish our vision, core values? How do we want to behave to accomplish our mission and vision, right? The core values are those behaviors that leaders are supposed to express, model, reinforce, and become our culture, right?

    When you add wellbeing and psychological safety to your values as an organization, everything changes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I really love this. It’s, and I’m thinking back on my own career in corporate life and how some of the companies I worked for were better at training than others, but we were trained in things like compassionate leadership, coaching, someone.

    Talking about calling somebody in, not calling them out in front of people, giving the bad news first, ending on a good note all these kind of things and encourage people along. But never, ever, ever along the way did anything like this come up in the training. And some of the companies I worked for were grew to be very large through mergers and others were.

    Pretty boutique and small, but it seems like what you’re talking about could work in a small company, huge corporations. And it’s been missing. And I also just remember one time I was working and I’d worked myself into the ground. I’m the kind of person, but a colleague said, I’m gonna take a mental health day.

    And I was like, what? We can’t do that. That’s like, you call it a vacation day. And it struck me that. That person actually did, but there wasn’t a policy for it or anything like that. They just did it and it always stuck with me. Like, that’s probably a really, really good idea and to have everybody involved.

    The, but the other thing that didn’t happen very much when I was at work, or you just 

    Adam Nemer: have your PTO your illness days, they’re just wellbeing days. You don’t have to mention if they’re physical or mental. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Exactly, and we had e EAPs, but the thing is most people would never tell anybody else if they called an EAP line.

    So what you’re talking about seems so super important. So what have you seen in the community and in your worldview, and what have been some challenges as you create this solution of simple mental health? 

    Adam Nemer: Oh, what have been some of the challenges?

    I think that

    many of us, and I’m not gonna say older generations, right? Gen Xers and then the Baby boomers, right? W we were trained that, there’s no room in business for feelings, and you leave your emotions at the door and we’re this executive look

    and

    millennials, gen Zers, they bring their emotions. It’s my grandpa and dad would say, why should you do, why should I do what your boss asks you to do? ’cause they pay it. Your check Millennials and Gen Zs, it’s change management 1 0 1. If they don’t think it’s the right thing to do what their boss asks, they’re not gonna do it.

    And so it’s because we gotta start bringing our feel. If you wanna be an effective leader with the next generation of people who are our colleagues, right? We need to break through some of those basic assumptions. And those basic assumptions are those two. Now then you, that breaks into the stigma, so you might ask early, one of the questions like, how’s it possible that a quarter of us have a clinically recoverable mental illness, but we don’t get help? It’s because of stigma. 80% of people who don’t get help for the wellbeing, for mental, health conditions say they’re worried about what other people, but number one reason is stigma.

    It’s like the myths around mental illness that we taught ourselves in society, like depression isn’t real. They drive the stigmas like. People with depression aren’t just weak, and those stigmas, dry feelings of shame, like, oh my God, I’m a depressed person or I feel depressed, so I must be a weak person.

    So what I do is stay silent. So it’s this cycle of myst stigma, shame, and silence. And what we’re, we’ve been taught as a society that we’re not supposed to talk about mental health, right? It’s just what, it’s a taboo topic. And so what’s. What’s hard about the work that I do is we’re asking leaders to say, you may have been taught one way and reinforce your entire life, but to be successful going forward, it’s, do you really want to be a successful leader in the future?

    It’s about showing your emotions. It’s about being vulnerable. When you talk about psychological, safe, facilitative, courageous leadership, that’s all about being authentic, vulnerable leaders and saying, I know that I don’t have the answers. My team does. I’m gonna facilitate them to create the answer. My job is not to, my job is to create a high performing team.

    My job is not to do the work of my team.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. That it makes such a difference, doesn’t it? 

    Adam Nemer: It makes all the difference in the world. Yeah. And so it’s hard. So that’s been, so what I found is that it’s like, what’s been hard about this is there’s take all the leaders out there. There’s a third of ’em a certain set. They’re just not open to the idea.

    Some that are super open and some that aren’t sure. And so what’s hard is there’s perhaps more of these guys and gals than I then it’s, I have a lot of of convincing to do with a lot of folk. But what gives me so much optimism is so many folk I meet throughout the course of the day, I get a heck of a lot more.

    Yeah, I get what you’re saying as opposed to 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: indeed. Oh, and you and I met fairly recently through an introduction, and I’ve been thinking about this topic ever since. I think it’s critically important what you’re doing. So 

    Adam Nemer: who would think it’s like improving physical, if someone was showing up with a bad back at work every day, they were, their productive wouldn’t be, their productivity wouldn’t be good.

    Same thing with mental, I mean, it’s like, this is like, it’s. S for the love of the universe, Kim. I it’s like you can help people improve their lives and performance all the same. I’ve spent so many years like beating my head against the wall, trying all of the psychological safe tactics and all of that stuff, and doing a good job, but still not getting there.

    It wasn’t until this. We just actually, and you know what? I think it is, you mentioned the companies that you used to work for did some nice facilitative psychological safe coaching and training like we did at Kaiser. So here’s my theory, and this is what I, or I shouldn’t say my theory.

    This is how I experienced this, right? So for 18 years as a leader at Kaiser. I went, I started by getting trained in servant leadership, then facilitative leadership, the psychological saving. It’s all the same sort of stuff with different phrases and it evolves over time. And basically I, I think about those leadership approaches or are just approaches to are tactics.

    Leaders and managers might deploy on a regular basis so that they create a space amongst their colleagues and team where everyone feels the safest to perform at their best, to be who they are and share their points of view. And so you go through all these trainings and the, and when I, then we went, then we became mental health literate by taking the first aid class for a half day.

    And it answered the change management 1 0 1 question. Why? So we all know change management 1 0 1. You gotta explain to P if you want people to change their behaviors, you gotta explain why it’s so important, right? And so we were learning all these psych, I was learning for 20 years, all these psychological, safe, facilitative leadership proposals approaches, right?

    And I was having to memorize them. I didn’t feel ’em so much, but just memorize them and I’d get ’em. I didn’t, I, they were just, they weren’t in who I was. They weren’t part of my foundation. I was just learning the tactics and then I learned the why by learning what mental illness is and what mental health and wellbeing is by learning what the signs and symptoms are, by learning what it feels like by learning how to help people and get help.

    I learned. Our teams learned in all the leadership teams. We learned why psychological safe leadership is important. So once I, so what we work with organizations, it’s once you have mental, basic mental health literacy and you create a culture, mental health literacy, having a culture of psychological safety is just a hop, skip, and a jump down the road.

    ’cause it’s just, it’s so much easier to do. It’s so much easier to create a culture of psychological safety when it’s based on a foundation of simple mental health literacy. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that is beautifully simple. I appreciate that so much. What do you think about because we were talking a bit about B Corps and I.

    Mission driven companies, and yet some probably hadn’t thought about mental health literacy the way we’re discussing it. What do you think are the possibilities as part of being values driven, as you mentioned before, what do you see as the possibilities for adding this and how does that make a B Corps or non B Corps even stronger?

    Adam Nemer: The B Lab community and the is new to me, and so I’m really learning about this and what’s I get so excited that I’m connected with the, this movement now. And the reason is that, I left an overpaid underworked mid-level executive job at a wonderful company. ‘Cause I wanna change the world, right?

    And for me, and they trained me to be what I think is a kind human leader who cares about people. I was trained to do that at Kaiser Permanente by my coaches and mentors and I think and I, when I started this organization four years ago. I thought that people would care about the human case for change.

    Why should organizations invest a couple hundred dollars per person for a half day of training and and then roll then just have some reinforcement stuff. ’cause it’s gonna save lives and it’s the right damn thing to do. Oh my God. Why would you be a leader if you wouldn’t want to do that?

    That’s how I was, that’s how I was trained to think. And but as I go out into the. Real world. What I found is a couple things. One, not everybody, very few organizations you’re lucky. I was lucky at me where your organization, you worked at me with Kaiser because they trained us in psychological, safe, facilitative fleet.

    That is not the norm out there. It is not the norm in corporate America. It’s not mid-size small business that no one even know. What I’m finding is I thought everybody understood it. People don’t it. It’s. It’s not out there. And what, but, and almost, I mentioned earlier though, there was kinda like three different folks who are interested in this work.

    Some that are really interested and some that are not sure those that are really interested. They’re mostly they feel the human case, but they are driven. By the business case, depression drops, productivity 35%. So if I improve 20% of my employees outta depression, I’m gonna improve two days of work out of a week.

    People who struggle with their wellbeing have five times more unplanned absences through the course of the year. So if I can help someone get healthy, actually show up for work, that it’s a, there’s this huge business case, right? And so as a business person, you look at the book that I wrote.

    There’s a lot of the human case, but I go through a lot of the business case for how this will improve your core business metrics and relate it to what, how it helped improve our core business metrics. And so it’s been, I love what I do and I’m just so lucky that I get to do this, but there’s just been this, I don’t know.

    I know I’m a recovering CFO, but I’m not a money guy. I’m not motivated by money. I just motivated by do the right thing, the money will follow. And so it’s I don’t know, inked, inked on me. I’ll create a world, it’s just a word. It’s ined on me that i’ve had to talk more about the business case than the human case.

    And so your question that started this entire answer was, what? What about the connection with B Lab is what’s so neat about, every single conversation that I’ve had with a member of this community, I’ve talked with people in companies that are certified. I’ve talked with consultants, I’ve talked with a handful of people since over the last handful of weeks.

    And every one of them a hundred percent, it’s all about the human case. I have to say. I tell about where you think, oh my God, that’s amazing. I love to help our people, blah. And then I have to say at the end. You know, it’s also will help improve your core business metrics. What do you mean really? So that’s what I’m just, I am Y’all been coming to Milwaukee for the champions retreat in a couple weeks.

    Just ’cause it’s like I found a community of business leaders who are gonna in be inspired by the human case. And when I can show ’em the business case, how it’s gonna help their business performance, I’m just so excited. It’s great. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I agree with you. I also think that there’s possibility for people like me who have gone from corporate or some never been in better solopreneurs or maybe have a couple of contractors they work with, but there’s also the client piece.

    And sometimes with clients, especially working with clients for months, even years at a time, we have an opportunity to recognize things in each other and. This idea about simple mental health and noticing something in someone to be able to ask them heartfelt questions can help along a, across a variety of lines, like with partnerships and suppliers, and.

    As we work with each other and friendships form, that can be a window of opportunity to maybe recognize something in someone else they’re not seeing. And I think there’s, for the, for more small businesses, there’s that opportunity as well. You are really onto something that I think is super important.

    Adam Nemer: I think it helps build the community outside of your business. So, I’ll let you in on my secret plan. I genuinely believe that. I’m one of those Margaret Mead folk. Never doubt that a small group of people could change the world, ’cause only a few can. I was just raised to believe that stuff by my parents.

    And, I believe if business leaders across America put mental literacy in their professional toolbox and cascade this knowledge to their organizations across America, average annual training is $1,400 per person. We’re talking $200. This is like a reallocation of existing training dollars.

    This is not an expensive or complicated thing, right? But 95% of Americans work. So if we were to have leaders train this what happens is when. You become mental health literate just like you. And when you take a, and when your company teaches you how to take a employee health and safety class around how to dispose of batteries in a safe way, which is good, each and s h and s program, you take that knowledge home, right?

    And you try to dispose of batteries in a safe way at home there too, right? So you, when you learn CPR, you don’t say, I’m only gonna use this knowledge at work, right? I’m only gonna use this knowledge at home. I’m gonna let people choke at work. When you give someone mental health literacy in the workplace.

    It goes straight into their home life. It because it impact, it impacts ’cause when you walk around, once you’re trained on how to recognize the signs and symptoms, what you learn is we’re walking around all day long recognizing this in the people that we, strangers, our friends, our family, our loved ones, acquaintances, and there’s really small little words and phrases we can use that can help encourage somebody to, that they might get some help.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes me optimistic. What about you? What makes you optimistic? Again,

    Adam Nemer: honestly, for the love of the universe I was raised to be optimistic by my parents, my parents and watch modeled by my grandparents. They. They the values they taught me as a young kid

    I learned that you can do anything in this world that I was taught. I was just raised from a young age to think I. I don’t know. I think I was special. I can do anything right and we can make a difference. And then and that just, I think, so I was raised and then I was blessed with some remarkable mentors along the way.

    I get most of my, it’s funny, I’m an MBA and a CFO and all that, but I really, I’m a liberal arts college student from Claremont McKen College. I’m just a history student, I get my leadership inspiration from the classics and that’s who made me, an o like okay.

    On my desk over here, like le the books that I have on my desk, I have, okay. My book that I wrote. Then I got the Odyssey, I got Václav Havel’s Disturbing the Peace, and I got The Good Soldier Švejk. So for me it’s it’s funny, you ask about optimism. This mother, this dude got home, this guy kicked out a bunch of Commies.

    He started a revolution, right? This is ti I, so I was just raised to by parents to think that I could do anything, and then I got educated in stuff that inspired me just to think that way. And so I just I’m an optimistic guy. See it’s funny. Okay I was, I have a friend I used to work with Catherine Vany.

    She’s now a nurse leader at a, some hospital system up in in the Seattle area. And her dad’s a leadership consultant and she told me this phrase he uses that I love. It’s is the glass half emptier glass half full? Doesn’t matter. Glass r it’s always refillable. So that’s just always refillable, always refillable.

    So I just I was just, I am blessed that I was raised by parents and grandparents who maybe arrogantly taught me I could do anything. And then I was blessed by these, wonderful mentors, professors at College Gaines post these wonderful leaders at Kaiser Permanente who modeled that you could be a.

    Human and also a good leader and that you could man working in healthcare wires you to be optimistic. It’s one crisis after another. Oh my God. If you’re not optimistic when you are working in healthcare, you’re in the wrong business.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: You’re saying that because also I came out of healthcare as you know, and people who’ve listened to the podcast know and it is inspiring. Recovery is inspiring. Innovations are inspiring things of that nature. And it’s a joy to have you here. And I think you are taking a snowball down a hill that’s gonna gain momentum and be really important for the future of people who.

    We spend a whole lot of our waking lives working and why not let it be joy and a place to be recovering and a place to be real and authentic? What else would you like to share and how can people reach you? And please tell them the name of your book. 

    Adam Nemer: Oh yeah, sure. The name of my book is Simple Mental Health the ROI of vulnerability.

    And you can get a hold of me you get our, my website connect with me there at simplementalhealth.com.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. And all of that will be in the show notes for those who are listening. The final question is. If you could have dinner with up to three people to join you at a table of four who are living, were deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Adam Nemer: Up to three people. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So there’s four of you.

    Adam Nemer: Oh that, that is, there, there’s three faces that come to my mind and and it’s a no brainer for me. My my idols are the people that are like my idols. Muhammad Ali, bill Russell, bill Walton. I want to have dinner with Muhammad Ali. Bill Russell and Bill Walton.

    Bill Russell. A fighter for rights. A fighter for what he believed in man as a African American leader in the Boston community through all those years. He was a Bill. Russell was a

    inspirational. Ethical, moral human being who, who just fought for he thought was right. Muhammad Ali, come on. This just the greatest. He went to prison instead of fi he went to prison. He gave up. He could have been he gave up the prime of his career and went to prison. ‘Cause of what he believed in.

    Then you got Bill Walton. He’s my, I, it’s funny you say, I got Portland, bill Trailblazers. Bill Walton I just happened to have her right here, star of the early seventies, UCLA, Bruins, Walton was a funny guy. Grew up in Portland and it, so I grew up as a kid, like being a Trailblazer fan, right?

    Of course I think Bill Walton’s the greatest. But the thing is I. Over the last decade or so before he passed, I started listening in to a lot of what he wrote and a lot of his podcast, a lot of information about him. And he was just one of the most inspirational good conscious driven human beings.

    And he taught me my own personal mantra. The thing that I think about. I try to think about regularly every day throughout the course of the day and when I’m having a hard day. ’cause I still struggle with my mental wellbeing on any given day. And what I think about is this one Walton is, I heard him say once, which was learn from the past.

    I’ll say it like you would say it, learn from the past, dream of the future, but live in the moment. I love that. I think it’s great and he is just a happy guy. So those would be my theme. If I could have dinner with those two, that would be amazing. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think that would be a raucous, fun, incredible dinner.

    Thank you so much, Adam Nemer, you are a joy to have on this podcast. I have learned so much and I think. The possibilities are so terrific that we can all move forward. Keeping our finger on the pulse, so to speak, of our own mental health, and also on the lookout for others and the world will be a better place.

    That’s right. Thank you all. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast with the message that can continue onward indefinitely. Thank you all. Have a wonderful day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Adam Nemer

    Adam Nemer headshot. Smiling and sitting at a laptop with a window in the background.

    Adam Nemer is an author, former executive at Kaiser Permanente, and founder of Simple Mental Health.
    For nearly 20 years, he led at KP while silently struggling with severe, yet undiagnosed depression and anxiety. His life – and leadership – changed when a compassionate colleague encouraged him to seek help, showing the profound impact leaders can have on their teams’ well-being. Today, Adam works with organizations across the Americas and Europe, spreading mental health literacy and helping build cultures where both people and performance thrive.

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  • Teaching What Technology Can’t with Tracy Hooper of The Confidence Project

    Teaching What Technology Can’t with Tracy Hooper of The Confidence Project

    Tracy Hooper of the Confidence Project, joins Kim Allchurch Flick to talk about building confidence and real connection in an increasingly device-driven world. 

    Hooper traces her values to a large, welcoming family and her TV news experience, where introducing herself with her full name and treating people as significant helped create trust. 

    She says the Confidence Project “teaches what technology can’t,” emphasizing in-person conversation skills, eye contact (or looking at the bridge of the nose), and open-ended “Kickstarter questions” using “what,” “how,” and “tell me more.” 

    They discuss how phones can block presence and how talking to strangers builds “social courage.” 

    Hooper describes coaching methods like creating a “like list,” sweet-talking yourself, practicing public speaking through rehearsal, and workplace techniques to amplify quieter voices.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Introductions

    00:24 Family Values and Newsroom Lessons

    02:13 Launching the Confidence Project

    03:41 Real Conversation vs Devices

    04:59 Eye Contact and Kickstart Questions

    06:12 Phone Free Spaces and Schools

    09:27 Missing Life on Your Phone

    11:22 Talk to Strangers Build Courage

    13:09 Lyft Story Listening Skills

    18:35 Naming the Confidence Project

    20:18 Confidence Is Action

    21:23 Confidence Through Practice

    22:18 Rehearsal Beats Winging It

    24:47 Build Your Like List

    27:00 Sweet Talk Yourself

    29:38 Confidence at Work

    31:40 Amplify Quiet Voices

    33:21 Recharge and Recover

    34:42 Conversation Comeback

    37:35 Resources and Book

    39:00 Dream Dinner Guests

    41:31 Final Takeaways

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. Welcome to the podcast. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, and I am here with Tracy Hooper of the Confidence Project and I’m so delighted. Welcome. 

    Tracy Hooper: Thank you very much.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So what has been your journey up to. What’s inspired you along the way and shaped your values to create the confidence project?

    Tracy Hooper: Oh my goodness. My values were really shaped by my family. Growing up in a big family, there are six of us. I’m the second four girls and two boys, and really my parents taught us how to treat everyone as if they are the most important person in the room because you are. Anybody we’re talking to is the most important person in the room.

    They matter. And that started, growing up around my family dinner table and with my grandparents coming over and neighborhood kids would come to our house and everybody was welcomed and treated with dignity and respect. Then I got into the TV news business, and that is a challenging industry where it’s get what you can hurry up, do it faster.

    It’s not really about building relationships. It’s about having a transactional experience. If someone’s in a crisis and you’re covering that story for the news, but what I found is if I approached people. And introduced myself using my full name. I looked them in the eye. I shook their hand and said, I’m sorry to meet you under such circumstances, or congratulations for whatever they’re excited about.

    The people immediately connected to it. When you attach your first and last name to an introduction, it’s much more interesting than, Hey, I’m Kim. Hey, I’m Tracy. And I think also too, for people who are in the news business. There is an assumption that people would know who we are, but to say my first and last name really let people know that I understood that they might not know who I am, even though there’s a cameraman next to me and the logo from my station.

    I think treating people that way, making them feel significant, really has been a part of. Of my journey and really what led me to the Confidence project was that I noticed that the way people were talking, interacting with each other was changing. This was in 2012 and I thought what skills do I have that I could make it available for people to talk about getting to know each other?

    And I started the confidence project thinking, oh, it’s going to be, how do you introduce yourself? How do you introduce someone else? How do you start a conversation with someone you don’t know? But it’s really expanded into Kim. It’s teaching people what technology can’t. That’s really what the Confidence project is all about.

    Teaching people what? Technology can’t. How to communicate and carry yourself with confidence. You can’t depend on an iPad or iPhone or a Zoom call for that. We’re talking in person, but, or we’re talking by Zoom. But there’s so much more to having a real conversation than what you might have on a text or in an email.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so brilliant and I love how you expressed it, making people feel significant. Teaching what technology can’t. 

    Tracy Hooper: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that must be really interesting now because technology curves are exponential and it’s pretty fascinating world we live in. So tell us more about that. 

    Tracy Hooper: In my view, people hide behind their devices.

    I was leaving my colleague’s house the other day. We were working together at her house and I got in my car and there was a woman walking up the street with her dog. And as soon as I walked to my car and she was walking next to my car, she went right to her phone. And I thought, what is intimidating about looking at someone and saying Good morning.

    We think that and I think we’re so used to being on our devices that we have conversations by text. That’s not a conversation, that’s a text. We have conversations by email. That’s not a conversation. That’s email. What we’re doing right now is a conversation. It’s a dance. It’s a back and forth.

    It’s a partnership. You speak, I listen. I speak, you, listen, we take turns. Sometimes you lead, sometimes I lead. But it’s all about that connection, connecting. And when we connect in person or what we’re doing right now, it can be magic. It can be the opportunity to really understand a person better, look at their perspective, let them hear what you have to say.

    So that’s what the confidence project is really about, helping people feel comfortable in all kinds of situations, not the least of which is in person. And I always tell people if it’s tricky for you to look someone in the eye, which is the way that you make people feel important, if it’s tricky for you to look someone in the eye, look at the bridge of their nose.

    It’s a great fake. It’s in the family, it’s in the neighborhood. And that’s part of what I do is just help people feel comfortable with other people. And one of the ways that you can do that is asking what I call or asking Kickstarter questions using the magic words, which in my view are what, how, and tell me more.

    If we simply asked those simple, use those simple words to get in a conversation with someone, what brings you to here tonight? How did you hear about this event? Tell me more about your company. What brought you to this part of the country? Tell me more about that. That’s interesting. I never thought about it that way.

    Keep going. When we o ask those open-ended questions, he gives people a chance to talk about their favorite subject wishes. Themselves. 

    People love to talk about themselves. Of course. We want people to be interested in us. That’s a snippet 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And so important, and I’m also thinking about the devices and networking events that I’ve been to.

    And there was one recently where the rule was no devices and it was a meeting. We were supposed to come away with notes and things like that, but the rule was no devices. And it was great, and I’m not gonna say it wasn’t difficult because I often take notes on a device, but 

    Tracy Hooper: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: paper will do and, but the engagement was really terrific.

    I 

    Tracy Hooper: love that idea. I’m gonna recommend that to some of my clients and colleagues. I just saw something, I don’t know whether you watch the Pit, it’s a second season. Oh, so good. And as if we don’t have enough medical shows, but I just love it. And I was listening to Noah Wiley, who’s of course the Star and the executive director, and he said in the studio, no one is allowed to bring their phones.

    And they put their phones in a cubby, and next to that is a library. And so instead of picking up your phone, you pick up a book if you’re in between takes or you’re not shooting much that day. And I thought, isn’t that brilliant? He’s helping people to stay fully connected to their character or to step into another world by reading a book and not getting it off our phones.

    I, I thought that was. So smart. My husband just finished teaching business, personal finance and accounting at Lincoln High School here in Portland. And they have cubbies now for the kids to put their phones, which I think is a step in the right direction. All the literature, all the research shows that it’s not good for us.

    We need to use our brains. We need to talk to each other. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And I’m so glad you’re bringing. As well. There’s been a couple of news reports about schools and how it’s a weaning process too. It’s been difficult, but there was a principal that was noting when they let, even when they let the kids say, have their phone during a break or between classes, often they would show up late to the next class because the phones suck us in it’s dopamine hits.

    It’s a variety of things. And at first they said only for emergencies. And he said, we’d hear kids talking with their mom about what they were gonna have for dinner. And he was like, okay, we’ve gotta define emergency. Yeah. And how difficult it was to give them even a little bit. But also some of those studies that show, even if you go camping where there’s no cell phone signal and it’s more gently forced.

    It can’t be on the phones. People usually feel so much healthier and so much better after, after a while of that. So what you’re talking about I think it’s compelling to remember, yes, they are tools, but also they can’t be front and center of life otherwise we it’s interesting the more information we have access to, the more we miss.

    And I’ve noticed that that’s an interesting about myself too. That’s an 

    Tracy Hooper: interesting, say more about that. Tell me more. What do you mean? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I’m thinking about sometimes it’s dangerous. I have seen people cross streets looking at their phones. 

    Tracy Hooper: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I, I traveled through four cities in Asia with Portland State University and we were doing projects.

    And in the biggest intersection in the world, which is in Tokyo, it’s where people flow all at the same time. It’s a site to behold. And one of the students kept playing Candy Crush and a couple of us literally had to grab his elbow and walk him across the street. And for Candy Crush, he was missing one of the greatest sites in a city that he is never been to that kind of hold that something can have.

    And even at dinner we went to a little restaurant where. We couldn’t read the menu. And there was some company men, it was a small restaurant and Japanese company men, and they noticed us being from all sorts of different countries, not being able to read the menu. And they ordered for us. And this same kid, the ch the one from China, looked up enough to.

    To be delighted that he got skewered chicken hearts. He was absolutely delighted. And then he went back to his phone and Oh 

    Tracy Hooper: my 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: goodness. And these men were engaging with the rest of us, with none of us knowing how to speak Japanese. And it was, and I remember that he probably doesn’t remember because he was un Candy Crush.

    And so that I think is what I mean by that. Going to a park, are you gonna look at the phone or. Look at the birds, and sometimes the phone can help us look at the birds. I admit to using eBird and Merlin quite a bit, but it’s it’s an assistant instead of it being a distraction.

    Tracy Hooper: Are you familiar with Esther Perel? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I am not. 

    Tracy Hooper: Esther Perel is a. A very well known international relationship therapist. She speaks nine languages. Can you imagine sitting in the therapist chair and if you speak French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, she would be able to converse with you. And she says this, it’s important to talk to strangers.

    Talk to strangers not a stranger, in a dark alley at 2:00 AM. Talk to strangers, which could be your Uber driver, your Lyft driver, someone who you see regularly at your coffee shop, but you’ve never spoken with them before. If you’re at a athletic event, at a reunion, at at a wedding reception, she says, talking to strangers builds social courage.

    Social courage. And it’s spontaneity, it’s improvisation. It’s serendipity, it’s curiosity. When you build that, when you are curious about other people and you have the courage to speak to people who are it’s a lab. Nobody’s gonna bleed. Nobody’s gonna die. You’re practicing talking to other people in a safe place.

    Then it gives you a, she says it builds trust. If we don’t talk to strangers, she said, we don’t build trust in them and in ourselves to be able to communicate with them. And I often tell my clients, think of it as a lab. It’s an experiment. I’m going to talk to my Lyft driver and use those magic words.

    What, how, and tell me more. How long have you been a Lyft driver? How’s it going for you? I remember one time I was taking a lift to an event and I was dressed in business attire. I had on a black coat and heels, and I was dressed up. It was for business. And when I got into my lift. The gentleman, I heard the music change from Hard rock to classical.

    I thought, that’s interesting. So I sat down in the back, I put on my seatbelt and I said to him, good morning. Thank you for being here. Thank you for a clean car. I was like to thank people for a clean car. And I said I noticed that the music changed from Hard Rock to classical when I got in the car.

    Is that intentional? And he said, yes. I said, tell me more about that. He said I could tell I got a vibe from you that you were professional. And so I wanted the music to reflect that. I said, how long have you been experimenting with this with this idea? He said, for about three months. And I said, what’s been the change?

    He said, my tips are higher. And I thought, wow, simply being aware, being attentive, being attuned to other people can benefit everyone. I felt good. It was calming music for me. I was on my way to give a presentation. He didn’t know that, of course, and he was responding to me. That showed respect for. What I might like.

    And it started a conversation and yeah, I gave him a higher tip. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. That’s how intuitive and how interesting I, you brought up Lyft drivers and it reminds me of a story that happened before COVID, but I’d flown into Salt Lake to see my family, and I decided to take a Lyft. And I usually open with some kind of a question, like, how are you, how’s your day?

    That’s usually been my open and I’m gonna change to your questions that you recommend. But what came out of that drive was I, he had an accent and I commented and asked him, what brought you to Salt Lake? Instead of, where are you from? I didn’t really make assumptions about what brought you to Salt Lake.

    Turns out he was a journalist from Caracas, Venezuela. He had to leave so he wouldn’t be killed. 

    Tracy Hooper: Wow. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that was just before COVID. Same regime that has just been shifted a bit and talking to him about how his life as a journalist and how important he felt journalism was.

    And yet he first landed in la. And just worked any job he could to try and bring some of his family over. And that conversation was 45 minutes long during the drive. And it touched me a lot because he talked about realities. He didn’t sugarcoat anything and then, bring it to now, and I always wonder, is he even safe?

    Is he even still here? And. This is somebody who just wanted to tell the truth and maybe he got some of those stories up because some of the passengers asked questions who could tell others and be informed and aware and almost, I would say 80% of the Lyft drivers, Lyft were, I’m Lyft person myself that I’ve been with.

    Many have been from overseas. 

    Tracy Hooper: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And they’re doing what they can and some are PhDs and getting to know that those little conversations have expanded my worldview. 

    Tracy Hooper: Oh, definitely. Or it could be someone who’s in between jobs. Yes. It could be someone whose mother is sick and they need to have the flexibility to take their mother to get a dialysis procedure.

    And then they have to drive at night. Everybody has a story. Everybody has a story that will break your heart. And if we are curious as human to human, person to person, I think our world can be so much richer. I was struck by when Phil Donahue died. I always. He was one of the, my mother was the original talk show host Kim, and then there was Phil Donahue and then there was Oprah.

    But Phil Donahue said before, about a month before he passed away, he said the foundation of what he covered in the 7,000 episodes he taped was curiosity. And he said, if we can just learn to. Be curious about each other. We live in this global world. We can get along better if we knew someone’s story.

    And that’s what I mean, a lift ride. Somebody you see, walking your at the dog park, if that’s where you take your dog. It’s not, nothing’s dangerous about it. It’s simply making conversation. And then when you’re ready for a real conversation with a prospect or a client or a job interview, or you are on a panel to select someone for a job, then you’re more comfortable having those natural conversations.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And how did you name your. Company, the Confidence 

    Tracy Hooper: Project. Ask that. I have worked with a woman for a long time. Her name is Sarah Garrison, and Sarah helps me with everything technical. Everybody needs somebody like that in their world. And Sarah and I was talking about this company.

    I wanted to have AC company by communicating with Con, I didn’t even use the word confidence. And Sarah said to me, well, you know, my sister and I are working on this project. I said, oh my gosh, Sarah. That’s what we’ll call it, the Confidence Project, because it’s a project it’s ever changing and growing and expanding, and we’re all learning.

    And I said, oh my gosh, quickly. Get the URL. And so Sarah went to get the URL for the confidence project, and at the time the URL, the confidence project was already taken. It was a men’s underwear company, so I couldn’t get the confidence project, so I just got. Confidence project. That’s fine. And then about three years ago, I got noticed that the confidence project was for sale.

    And I guess the underwear company didn’t last. And so I bought the confidence project. So I have both the Confidence Project and Confidence project, but I really love it because it’s unfinished. It’s in process like marriages, as my mother always says. Marriages are in process all the time.

    And relationships in general. That’s where it came from. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s unfinished. I, that is so profound as I stand here in my project house with my beautiful husband, you’re right. It’s a journey and I think that’s part of the wonderment of it and the word confidence, I think it’s, and shame on me.

    I assume that lack of confidence is often in young people, teenage years, life transitions, but it can also occur quite a bit in adulthood, throughout adulthood. And so what do you see and how do you work with people on confidence? 

    Tracy Hooper: Oh first of all, confidence is a verb. The way people become.

    The way people become confident is by taking action. Taking action. My theme is take action, make mistakes, adjust, refine, repeat. We just finished the Olympics. Those athletes were not winging it. They have been practicing and taking action. For years, Mikaela Shiffrin. I thought it was such an amazing story.

    She won all these gold medals two Olympics ago. The last Olympics. She didn’t win any this time. She won a gold, but she said, I’m always terrified when I go down the hill, the mountain, but I do it anyway and. I think if someone’s goal is to be more confident in conversation, if they want to be more confident having a difficult conversation, if they want to be confident speaking up, I believe for any professional, if you really wanna have a rich professional life, you need to be able to speak publicly.

    You need to be able to stand up in front of one or many and speak. And you don’t have to be Winston Churchill or Margaret Thatcher. Or Michelle Obama. But you need to be able to speak with confidence in front of a group, and that is will help the trajectory of anyone’s career and that takes practice.

    Sir Michael Caine, the brilliant British award-winning actor, said rehearsal is the work, the performance is the relaxation. You’re so rehearsed, you’re so comfortable with the material that when you get on stage or you get in front of a group, that’s when you can relax. And I think that’s so interesting because we just assume that the Meryl Streeps of the world, the Jerry Seinfelds of the world, are naturally talented.

    Yes, they’re talented with a lot of crafting that goes along. Jerry Seinfeld said before he ever performed for the first time on the Tonight Show, he rehearsed his four minute monologue 150 times. No wonder it sounded smooth. And guess what? We owe that to our audience. We owe that to our. Colleagues to be prepared to a prospect if we’re pitching for, a proposal that we have we owe it to them to be prepared and not wing it.

    My mother has this great expression without notes, we wander. And I often think about that. People get up to receive an Academy Award and they say I just don’t know what to say. And I’m thinking, girlfriend, you are one of five people who’ve been nominated for this best actress award. And you’ve known for weeks that you got this nomination.

    You need to be prepared. I always get mad. I’m thinking, bring some notes and thank the people you want to, or give us some words of wisdom or leave us with some hopeful thought about our future. Don’t just say, I don’t know what to say, Kim. I don’t mean to get started on this, but I do mean to get started on this.

    We need to be able to say, you’re right, who we are and what we represent, what value we bring, and it could be. With regard to your own career or what you believe in, if there’s something a project or a cause that you believe in, to be able to say that with confidence and that comes with practice. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So how do you work with people?

    How do you take them from feeling lack of confidence or may maybe not even knowing it, they just don’t know how to start, or they’re feeling. Such lack of confidence. They’re terrified and hiding in a corner. How do you bring the best out in people’s confidence? 

    Tracy Hooper: One of my secret formulas is that I, the first session I have with people when I’m working one-on-one, is that we create a like list.

    And that is, they have to tell me everything they like about themselves. And let me tell you. It can be painful because they think, oh let’s see. I am, I’m pretty organized and I am, I’m pretty friendly and I’m. Smart enough, there are all these, catches. What do you mean pretty organized?

    Are you organized or not? Yes, I’m organized. Anyway, they gimme their whole like list and then after about five or six, sometimes people will say, I can’t think of anything else. I say, keep going. Oh, okay. And then they come up with three or four more. Okay. Is that enough? No. That’s not enough. And this takes up a fair amount of time.

    And it’s enlightening because then I say, what do your friends like about you? What does your family like about you? And sometimes someone say, I’m estranged from my mother. Okay. Is there someone else in your family? Yes, my cousin, my sister. What do your colleagues like about you? What do your bosses like about you?

    And sometimes Kim, I will get. Three pages of notes of what people like about themselves. And then I say to them, okay, now close your eyes and I’m gonna read to you your like list. And I don’t want you to say to yourself, yes, but I should have, I can’t. And I will tell you, almost every single time people weep,

    We rarely take the time to talk about what we like about ourselves, especially with another person. And that’s where we start. So that when we’re working together over a period of time, then we can go back to that like list. When they’re talking about presenting something, some, an idea to their boss, we can go back to their like list about I’m organized, I have a strategic mind, I am an inclusive person.

    And then they can bring that into the work that they do. It’s really very painful, powerful. And I’ll tell you something else about three years ago, I felt like I was always motivating myself by saying, get going. Just come on. What is your problem? You should be more organized. That was like my way of motivating myself.

    And about three years, and it wasn’t all the time, but it was on occasion. And about three years ago, I thought I wouldn’t speak to my, I don’t speak to my daughters that way. I don’t speak to my husband that way. I don’t speak to my friends that way. And if I did, I wouldn’t have any. So I decided that I was going to sweet talk myself, and now when I’m under a deadline and I’m working on something, I’ll say to myself, you are doing so well.

    Keep going, Tracy. Yep. Keep going. Just give it another minute. I am so sweet to myself and I can’t tell you how that calms down my nervous system. It’s a really powerful tool. I encourage people to sweet talk themselves. In fact, I have a monthly video, complimentary monthly video, two to three minutes each month, the first Thursday of the month, and one of my videos is called Sweet Talk Yourself, and it’s a way of doing that.

    I think we need to practice that as much as we need to practice talking to strangers.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That really struck me as. A, I don’t do that. And B, what a beautiful idea

    and what a practice. How many of us, if we did that would feel better on a daily basis. 

    Tracy Hooper: Yeah. The other, a 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: good thing to do, 

    Tracy Hooper: the other technique I say to my clients is, okay, now I want you to ask people who you care about in your life, what they like about you. Don’t show them the like list. You ask them what they’d like, they’ll add some other ideas, and then I want you to print it out and read it out loud.

    Because I believe when we hear the words come out of our mouth and into our ears, then it becomes a part of who we are. Oh yeah, I am. I am organized. Oh yeah. I am smart. We have to remind ourselves of all of our good qualities. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. It’s a beautiful thing that you’re doing. And where are some examples of places that you think this should be more normalized?

    Like people actually talking about confidence instead of saying, oh, you, you try to be more confident, or, whatever. I’m thinking about parents or teachers, but. Where is it missing to have this conversation? 

    Tracy Hooper: I think in the workplace it definitely can be a part of a skill that leaders model and teach.

    One of my goals is to spread the news of the confidence project far and wide. So if we can have leaders. Begin to use these techniques with their team, then people feel safe to talk about, I don’t understand this. Can you explain this to me? Could you support me in this? I was working with a young man several years ago.

    Wow. Maybe nine years ago, and he said, I am. An introvert. I’m reserved. I’m more of a processor, I’m a thinker and I go into these meetings with other people and there are a lot of type A’s, and there are a lot of people who are very verbose and I feel like I don’t get to give my talking points. I don’t get to give my message.

    And so we came up with this technique for him to go to his boss and ask for a seven minute, like kind of an odd number for a seven minute, zoom or one-on-one, three or four days before the meeting, and at that point he would tell his boss what the talking points were that he wanted to get out in this meeting, and it did two.

    That was to accomplish two goals. Number one, it. Gave his boss to be a part of the know, he was in the know for sure. But secondly, it gave his boss a chance to say if someone got off track, then he could bring them back to this young man’s point and give him a cha. He amplified him in the room and give him a chance to talk about it.

    So that’s a way that we can. That we can support other people who have different personalities that may, they may not be the loudest person in the room if someone is reserved or quiet or more of a processor. Sometimes the best ideas come from the people who speak the least because they’re such good listeners and they’re compiling all the information that everybody is sharing, and then they can bring it out in a succinct message.

    So we need to call on people in meetings who are quiet. And say, what’s your perspective? Oh, I don’t really know. I don’t know. Let’s take a moment. What were you thinking about when we were talking about A, B, C? Helping people to know that they’re, what they have to say matters and that we need to hear their voice.

    People are at companies for a reason. Their because of their skill, their talent, their ideas. So we need to get those people to talk as well as other people who are perhaps more talkative. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And I’m one of those people rather quiet and often, but in sales situations, so sometimes have to switch on a more exuberant personality.

    Tracy Hooper: Yes, it 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: can’t last all day. It’s exhausting, but at the same time it’s a point of diversity as well. Indeed everyone can bring something and it shouldn’t be a battle between extroverts and introverts and who’s best at what. But it’s that combination that can really strike some magic when people feel confident or at least accepted enough to be confident to speak up.

    Yeah. 

    Tracy Hooper: I think it’s very important to amplify people in any room. Notice the person who’s not talking. Notice the person who at a networking event or an industry conference who’s standing by themselves and welcome that person into the conversation saying something as simple as, come join us. We were just talking about Kim’s podcast.

    Now that person is immediately brought into the conversation. They’re up to speed with what’s happening and they can be a part of it. Oh, do you all know Kim? There are many ways that we can welcome someone. I wanna jump back to something we were talking about earlier a few minutes ago, and that is the idea of different personality types.

    I am an extrovert and. I still need time to decompress. I remember the first time I spoke at Nike, I was psyched. It was great. I was speaking to the equipment group and there were 50 people in the room and I was there, for a good part of the day. And I left at three and I thought, oh, my way home, I’ll just stop by the grocery store.

    And I pulled into the grocery store parking lot and I thought. I am exhausted, so I turned off the car, I put my seat back and I went sound asleep for 30 minutes in the parking lot of the grocery store. We all need to recharge and it’s okay to do that for yourself. We don’t have to keep pushing through.

    And if you’re the kind of person who needs to recharge more often, that’s fine. Give yourself. Five minutes between phone calls. Give yourself 10 minutes between meetings if you can possibly do that. We need to give our, we need to be kind to our innards, our soul, our lungs, our voice. We need to stop talking for a while and just be quiet.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, it’s true and beautiful. What, what makes you optimistic in your view? 

    Tracy Hooper: What makes me optimistic is that I truly believe people do wanna have conversations with each other. I do believe people are not satisfied with texting and emailing and scrolling. I gave a presentation last week to 250 salespeople and.

    And every person, not every person, many people came up and said, thank you for giving us techniques to be able to talk to other people in person. I think that we were weak before COVID, and we were really weak after COVID in terms of interacting with people, and we need to exercise that muscle again, and it’s safe.

    And it’s fun. And if you have the techniques to do that, welcoming someone into a conversation or being in a situation where you would say, may I join you? I just heard you talking about your new dog. May I join you? Because in a social setting, most conversations are not private. They’re social and so it’s, you can enter into a conversation.

    May I join you or come join us? We were just talking about Kim’s podcast. Do you all know Kim? Oh, I’ll let you all introduce yourselves. If you can’t remember all the people’s names in a group, it can be very intimidating. I remember your Kim name, Kim, but I don’t know how to bring you in ’cause I can’t remember everybody in the group.

    You simply say, I’ll let you all introduce yourselves. People love that. Now you feel important. Everybody has a chance to say their name and how they like it pronounced. The world is flat. We have a lot of complicated names in the world. We wanna be able to say people’s names in a way that they like.

    It could be an accent in a certain area that we wouldn’t know unless we heard them say it. So I think that people really do want to have more conversations. I went to a retirement party, Henry and I, my husband and I, on Saturday night, and there were 75 people there. So it was a lot of people. People were talking like crazy.

    They were so happy to be together and not everybody knew everyone. This is a friend of ours who’s a doctor, anesthesiologist, and so his doctor friends were there, people from the hospital and they were friends from church and friends from the neighborhood and other friends and his family from all over the country.

    People were just mingling and talking, and it was really very encouraging. It was very encouraging. I think people are hungry to have good conversation and to feel as if they matter in a conversation or in a situation. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I, yes, I love that and I feel it too. And the more we get of that. The better, I think.

    So what more would you like to tell people and how can they reach you? 

    Tracy Hooper: Oh you can go to, so the website is still real confidence project.com and as I mentioned, you can go to the website and on every page you could sign up for the monthly video. And I love that because especially with so many remote teams, it’s great for people to, oh, that’s a really interesting video.

    I’m gonna share that with my team. And then people get to do that. That’s a way for you to stay connected, have a talking point. And also it’s everything. It’s everything confident. It’s, I just love it. I’ve produced over a hundred videos and every month I think, oh, what am I gonna talk about this month?

    And then something happens and I think there it is. That’s gonna be the message for the month. And then, yeah, just go to confidence project.com. I do have a book called The New Hello. And what to say, what to do in the world of work, remote, hybrid, in person. And this has a lot of the skills that you and I talked about today in the book.

    And this is what I recommend to people. Look at the table of contents, scan it, find a chapter that sparks your interest and read that we all have a lot to read. I don’t expect you to read this cover to cover, but there’s some great ideas for connecting with people, teaching people what technology can’t.

    And that’s how you can find me. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s excellent, and we’ll put everything in the show notes. Thank you. And for a last question, if you could have dinner with anyone, up to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Tracy Hooper: First of all I said my mother was the original talk show host. I would always have dinner with my mother.

    My mother is still living, she’s 93 years old. She’s in very good health. She lives independently and she is constantly sending me articles. Kim, in the mail. This is good for the Confidence project. Tracy, this would be good for your content. She’s my chief content officer, so I will have dinner with my mother anytime.

    I would also really like to have dinner with David Brooks. He’s been a New York Times columnist for 40 years. He just left the Times. He’s doing some other work with the Atlantic Magazine. He’s on the PBS News Hour on Fridays. He’s, he’s a combination of a journalist an historian. He has just a vast amount of knowledge that he makes very practical for today’s world.

    He’s a very insightful learned man, and I’ve heard him speak once here in Portland. I’d love to have dinner with him, and I would really love to meet Oprah. I remember when my girls, our girls were little Oprah would come on at three in the afternoon. So I’d pick up the girls at school and they’d come home and have a nap and a snack.

    I’m embarrassed to say. Then I’d watch Oprah. They’d be fooling around, running around outside, and I’d watch Oprah and then we’d get to homework and. Bedtime and dinner and all that, but talk about a woman who has evolved. I went to hear her she was doing something at the 2020 Vision tour in 2020.

    It was a week before the world closed down for COVID. And when she walked onto stage, I’m telling you, the energy shifted in the room. It was. The most powerful physical experience I’ve had with someone in a live situation, and she owned the room. She was natural, she was inquisitive she was complimentary.

    I really admire the life that she’s built and the impact that she’s made. So I would love to have dinner with Oprah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That would be amazing. And everyone and David Brooks and your mother sounds incredible. 93 years old and 

    Tracy Hooper: Yep, yep. I’ve learned a lot from her. Yeah. Without notes. We wander. Take your notes with you, everybody.

    I always say that we, it’s great to have notes. Yep. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Tracy, it is such a delight to always talk with you and 

    Tracy Hooper: thank 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: everyone. Please reach out. I am gonna sign up for those monthly videos myself. I think that’s super important. We could all use a little confidence boost here and there. Yeah, and thank you so much.

    This is Kim Allchurch Flick signing off. Have a good day.

    This Episode’s Guest: Tracy Hooper

    Headshot of Tracy Hooper, smiling.

    Tracy Hooper teaches what technology can’t. A former TV news reporter and anchor, Tracy is the founder of The Confidence Project. She works with corporate leaders and their teams to carry themselves and communicate with courage, clarity, and confidence.

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  • Sustainable Marketing, AI Disruption, and Trust with Jen McFarland

    Sustainable Marketing, AI Disruption, and Trust with Jen McFarland

    Jen McFarland, founder of Women Conquer Business, joins Kim Allchurch Flick.

    Women Conquer Business is a mission-driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing using digital strategy, SEO, and AI with a values-based focus on accessibility and clarity.

    McFarland shares her path from early marketing work to Peace Corps service in Kazakhstan, which shaped her perspective on equity and being “in the know,” then to earning an MPA and leading policy and digital transformation projects for the City of Portland, including IRS data tax matching.

    Burned out and disconnected from community impact, she started helping women with technology and later rebranded from Foster Growth to Women Conquer Business.

    She discusses challenges of entrepreneurship, community-based marketing amid economic stress, capacity-aware marketing, mixed feelings about AI’s environmental and privacy costs, the need to reduce doomscrolling, and optimism centered on younger generations and a marketing future focused on trust. 

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:39 Jen’s Origin Story

    02:20 Peace Corps Perspective Shift

    06:57 City Government Lessons

    10:18 Leap to Entrepreneurship

    14:07 Serving Community in Hard Times

    21:21 Capacity Aware Marketing

    22:45 AI Disrupts Marketing

    25:43 Staying Optimistic and Joyful

    28:36 Values and Trust in Marketing

    32:27 Where to Find Jen

    34:06 Dream Dinner Guests

    38:11 Closing Thanks

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick and today I am delighted to have a dear friend, Jen McFarland. Jen McFarland runs Women Conquer Business and is the founder. Jen is a marketing strategist, former City of Portland digital transformation leader and founder of Women Conquer Business, a mission-driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing.

    After a decade of shaping policy and public facing digital services inside government, she saw firsthand how small businesses are underserved and often preyed upon. She built her business to change that. Jen blends deep expertise in digital strategy SEO, and AI driven marketing with a values-based approach centered on accessibility, clarity, and real world results.

    She now helps women-owned businesses cut through overwhelm, build marketing they can sustain and grow with confidence. Today we’re gonna talk about how small businesses grow lessons from city government to helping women survive the marketing mess. That has to be about the coolest topic ever because I feel it every day.

    Welcome. It’s so good to see you. 

    Jen McFarland: You too. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    So 

    Jen McFarland: good 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: to see you. It’s, it is, and we have known each other for a while and both of us have been involved instructing at the small business development Center. So you’re a teacher, a coach supporting Accelerate women as well, and I’m so happy to learn more about your journey.

    So what has been your journey and the inspirations that brought you through a city to this point in time? 

    Jen McFarland: I know it’s so funny, like the question because when I, sometimes when I talk to people, they’re like, you did that too. What haven’t you done? Like I, because I am really into having really good experiences.

    So I’ve worked at a paper, I was a DJ for a while. I’ve done, I’ve done a lot of things. I got my first marketing job in at a company on Swan Island here in Portland, Oregon in the nineties, because I knew. What a scanner was like. The person interviewing me amazing. I know pointed at and said, you know what this is, I’m like a scanner.

    And so it’s just been it’s been a journey. I think the most transformational experience I had that probably set me on this trajectory was when I was in college and like right after I got out of college, one of my closest friends was in the Peace Corps. In Guatemala. And then and then I was like I wanna do that, and so then it started this whole thing of but then I got married and, but my husband wanted to go to, and so we had to figure out our finances. So it was this whole big thing about how to go serve. And then when you do have an experience like that, it just like. Sets you on a different mindset, a different place.

    You look at the world differently because you realize contextually what goes on here is so different than somebody else’s context, and it makes you look at things through a different lens. Just because I think it’s because of the length. After the first year, you’re still holding on to all of your.

    Ideas about we do it better America, whatever, but by the end of the second year, you have enough experience that you’re like, we really don’t, we don’t really know what we’re talking about anymore than anybody else does. We just do it differently. And I think for me, the biggest thing for me in terms of like equity and inclusion happened when, it’s really cold in Kazakhstan. That’s where we served. And so getting dressed to go to the school. Is like a big deal, like you’re, ’cause the whole, the apartment is cold. Like we’re not talking about central heating and stuff here, and so you put on all of your clothes and it’s 20 below and and you get to the school and there’s a padlock on the door.

    And nobody told you that there’s no school today. And I remember that. I remember standing outside the school and it was the second year and nobody told me there wasn’t school. And like I started to lose it, and I remember saying to myself that just doesn’t happen at home, and I was like, wait, no, it does. I’m just part of the group that’s in the know. And so those are the kinds of things that happen when you live in a culture long enough. Like you start to see that oh, I’m the other, oh, at my, where I live, I’m not the other. And like you start to have these aha moments, and so after that, when I got back from the Peace Corps, that was when I ran an AmeriCorps program for a year, and then I got my master’s in public administration. And worked at the city and did do a lot of policy work and things like that. And tech projects.

    Like my last project was bringing IRS data to the city of Portland for tax matching. You’re welcome. So for higher tax compliance at the city. And that was a big lesson like working with the federal government. That’s like a whole other thing versus working in local government. And then I just got burned out.

    I really felt like I wasn’t, I was affecting, there’s more, but at the time, 50,000 business owners at any one time. And then when it came to like bigger projects, it was like every portlander, we were affecting with like apps we would stand up or, redoing the website was one of my projects.

    All kinds of things. And then I was like, but I don’t really see. How it’s impacting people, and I got, I felt very disconnected from the community in that work, doing it at that level. And and a bunch of other things happened. Like it wasn’t a good environment for me as a individual.

    It didn’t really work for me. I like to move a little faster and so I started helping people on the side, like just with websites and things like that, because I could see. That there was a lot that needed to happen and a lot of people who particularly with like technology would just pat women on the head and be like, oh, you’re okay.

    And like they wouldn’t really help them or didn’t really have a real sense of. How the, as a provider, their actions were affecting these women business owners. And I was like I can help with this stuff. Like I can do this. And so that’s where at the time, foster growth, that’s, that was my, still my LLC was born, was out of that because I help and the name foster growth was because I help people foster growth and change.

    And that was what was on my resume, like all kinds of stuff. And then I got out in the world and people didn’t understand what foster growth meant. So a couple years later I changed it to Women Conquer Business, which is a pretty cool name. And it does a good job of attracting the right people and repelling the wrong people, which is always a good marketing exercise,

    Kim Allchurch Flick: wow, that’s my 

    Jen McFarland: story of sticking to it. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. You said something that I think is profound because essentially a city and employees of a city or government, county state. All that are supposed to be there for the people. And it really struck me that you said you felt so disconnected from the people in that role and yet we’re learning so many things and what a viewpoint that must be, but also seeing what’s missing that led you to women conquer business.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. I think that. We tend to see and we talked about it a lot in grad school, we tend to see the street level bureaucrats. So those are like firemen, police officers customer service people, if you go to a public park or things like that. Like they’re there and they’re like the people that you see, that you interact with.

    And then there’s a lot of people like me who are making decisions. Without public meetings, without any sort of discourse. And then you learn later oh my gosh, we like, we didn’t translate something. Or the form is confusing and people don’t do it. Or, people didn’t even know they were supposed to pay this tax.

    There’s all kinds of things that happen and there’s a lot of fallout and it’s because there is a big disconnect. The, a lot of policies, the city happened because somebody got elected and they decided this thing was gonna happen, and whether or not people want it or not.

    And that’s the thing that, that has always been frustrated. Frustrated. My dad, who worked at the Idaho Tax Commission for 42 years was like, politicians make decisions, but it’s the frontline, like workers of a state or county or whatever that get all of the blowback, and it’s.

    It’s politicians who raise your taxes. It’s politicians who make decisions that you don’t like. But then everybody says that they hate government. And there’s things within the system that are not great, not good. I find most government was formed, like how we do things was formed in the 1950s.

    And the world has changed vastly since then, but we don’t fund government to be agile at all. And if you look at some of the things that have happened since Trump 2.0 where they’ve just been slash and burning things like they’re, they have devastating consequences because everything is so interconnected that you can’t just be like.

    Doge and like just cut through everything. It just, it’s too intricate and making those shifts take so long, and it’s good and it’s bad. If you’re like me and you want change to happen quicker, like it’s not the right place for you to work, but. Government taking a time to like shift is actually a good thing because then you have more time to make sure that everybody comes along, and the danger with a lot of the things that are happening is it just skips over all of the like, inconveniences that people think make government slow, but it’s also what makes it work better. For all of its flaws. There are some things that were good about government being slower. Especially at the federal level.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, that, that makes sense. And thank you for that insider view. And I think we’ll probably come back to that every once in a while through the conversation. And what been some challenges and obstacles, particularly also going from employment or an organization, which is the government to being an entrepreneur?

    Jen McFarland: I. Every, I always think about it like, I’m so grateful to the infrastructure of like corporate life and like working at the city because I, and that’s why like I’m so grateful for my business operations manager, because there were just a lot of things that I didn’t realize I was getting help with.

    You learn pretty fast as soon as you’re out and you’re doing everything like holy cannoli, there’s like a lot to do. And so that was like the biggest gap was like, here I was somebody who did a lot of work but I wasn’t the face of the city. That was other people. I wasn’t doing all the finance.

    I wasn’t doing all the admin. I didn’t have an admin employee, but there was still a lot of admin that happened without. Me having to do anything. It was like magic, and all the magic’s gone. When you have your own, when you have your own business, all of a sudden you’re like, you’re the magic maker for everything.

    And that was like, that was a big shift. Like it was a, oh, be careful what you ask for, Jen. You just got it,

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah, be careful what you wish for it. It is true, isn’t it? I also came from more corporate life, not in a city, but through necessity after being laid off. It’s what’s next?

    Have to build something and having business acumen, but not having been a, not having run a business had been a part of a bigger machine, and steady paychecks are. Very nice. Pretty nice, 

    Jen McFarland: aren’t they? Yeah. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And work. Working hard for sometimes to build revenue that is not yet arriving is a good boy Cup call is, that is really 

    Jen McFarland: something, isn’t it?

    Or I remember the, and it hasn’t, I’ve been very blessed. It hasn’t happened very many times, but somebody didn’t pay, so I did all this work and then they never paid. And that happened to me like. Within two months of leaving the city. And I was like, are you kidding me? And then having like conversations with this business owner who just it was so vitriolic and adversarial, and I’m sending like proof of work, which she knew, she knew that I’d done the work, and I had to walk away from a few thousand dollars like.

    And I was like, oh man, I didn’t even consider this, as like a possibility. And that was a, that was also a big thing that happened, like pretty, pretty new to business that I was like, oh yeah, I guess that’s why they have small claims court, or whatever. And so yeah, you have those moments, but then.

    Then you learn how to analyze people when they come in to see if they’re really a good fit. And of course you can’t really know if people are not gonna pay. That’s still a thing that could happen I guess. You get better with time at assessing. If somebody’s full of it, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: absolutely. And knowing you through the years, I also see as being. A very mission-driven, values aligned business owner and caring about people in the community. And sadly, it’s too, sometimes along the way, there are those who don’t always see the same value set. They just want something to be done.

    And unfortunately, I have heard more than once about people who don’t get paid. With that it strikes me that you stuck to your values so much throughout and actually building stronger ones, and I think that’s one of the things I admire about you and women conquer business so much. And what do you see in the community you serve and how do you share your values with your community?

    Jen McFarland: I would say that, there’s a couple of different ways. There’s. There’s the community of say, like Accelerate Women or the work that David Mim and I put together for Prosper, Portland’s Inclusive Business Resource Network, where we built a digital marketing program from the ground up and served.

    I think it ended up being several hundred businesses. In the beginning it was just the two of us. And then at the end we had, I think, six or seven consultants, who were all serving. BIPOC business owners. Through IBRN and Mercatus, which is how I also got hooked into SBDC and some of those other things because David and I were also training the trainers so that we could help people understand how to help businesses.

    And that was really the foundation of getting into the community and really hearing about the problems and the questions that people had. It’s been a struggle lately. I’ve been talking to more businesses who are thinking of closing because of tariffs or the economy just hasn’t been what it once was in this immediate area, and then at the same time it all it’s all tied together. The nonprofit funding has dried up, which means the state funding has dried up. And then the city funding, is tied to how much business income we have. And if I talk to a lot of businesses that are thinking of closing, that means there’s not as much money then to go into places like Prosper Portland to support business development, and so the wheels go round and round. And so a lot of it right now in the immediate is how do we. Keep going. How do we do this in a way that is helpful? And so for a lot of people right now, I’m reminding them that everything isn’t online. You have to build relationships in the community.

    You have to talk to other people. You have to share and collaborate with others. And that’s always been a part of it. But when you’re a digital marketer, that’s maybe not always like the front and center. Piece of it, necessarily. I’ve been really fortunate too that I built my own community and the conversations we have in the online Women Conquer business community have been really great because there are some people who’ve been there for three years now. And so everybody’s really comfortable. It’s a really safe space and very supportive. And the question comes up a lot, like, how are we supposed to do marketing in this environment? Where it seems like the world is on fire like every day, and. And then at the same time, I’m navigating like crazy pants changes to marketing at the same time, and so I just keep reminding people in all of these meetings and stuff like, okay, we do the work because we care about our communities and marketing is energy. And if we can keep showing up for our communities, it benefits yes, our business, but it also benefits the people that we serve.

    And if we stop. Marketing and if we stop talking to people because we’re scared and we have so many things going on in the world that are making us fearful for the future, if we stop talking to other people, then we’re not helping. The people that we have vowed to surf. So it’s a real conundrum because if you feel scared and you feel uncertain, it makes marketing hard.

    ’cause like I said, it’s energy. So people can like, feel that you’re tentative about something. And it may not be like the business, it may just be like you read a headline, you doom scrolled and then you walked into a client meeting or whatever so it’s a really. Hard time to be a business owner.

    If you are mission driven and , if you have feelings about what’s going on right now it’s a hard time. And so really it I was putting together next week’s newsletter yesterday, and there’s actually like a link. In there that talks about like less doom scrolling more books.

    And it’s about just read and don’t read the book online. Read an actual physical book, so that you’re not putting yourself in a place where you could suddenly start scrolling something else, and and I bought myself, they sell like iPod lookalikes for $60 now, and I bought myself one so I can.

    Put my music on an iPod and go for walks without having my phone with me. And we just have to separate ourselves from a lot of the noise. It’s good to be aware, but like, when it comes to running a business in an environment like this, sometimes we have to protect our peace or it’s gonna be too much for us.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: We have to protect our peace and. That resonates so much because we do ’cause it’s constant fire hose out there, so if we don’t pull away from the fire hose, we will get watched downstream. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you for saying that. And this is from you working in like in depth so much about digital strategy and even though I am a marketing major and I’ve.

    Earned a digital strategy certificate. I discovered what I like about marketing, which is more the idea of it and reaching people in authenticity and creativity. And what I don’t like about it is things like ad words and all the machinations that can go into marketing. And what I have noticed about you is you understand all of these things and bring.

    Marketing to light in such a holistic fashion that it’s still important and yet it doesn’t need to be. It is still a game in a way. It’s always a game. It’s a game to get views. It’s a game to be noticed. I understand that part, but you make it really authentic and. That’s one of the things I appreciate and yet deeply digital and your understanding of ai, which to some people sounds new, but I know AI’s been around for 20 years.

    It’s just the incarnations are so rapidly growing and the use of it is, I don’t even know how to express it. The use of it seems to be like. Not just one train it. It’s almost like an airport and every plane flying out is like the AI doing something without us gathering information. Also, creating some things that are good, creating some things that are potentially nefarious and trying to understand it all at once.

    It’s like trying to understand how an airport works. It seems big, there’s a lot going on and in airport working where there’s no people. It’s just imagine that going on every day. Yeah. That’s how AI feels to me. It’s almost, I know it’s out there. I know it can be useful and it’s very large.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. There’s a few things that you said that I wanted to touch on, if that’s okay. Like 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Sure. 

    Jen McFarland: Absolutely. Sometimes people say that that what I, that I only help people with marketing basics, and I’m like, no, you don’t understand. I make marketing so approachable that it sounds basic and it’s not that I do basic things, it’s that I give people.

    Like a modular approach so that they can figure it out for themselves. And sometimes it’s really technical and sometimes it’s not. And the big thing that I’m excited about right now is that I’m helping people with something that it doesn’t have a sexy name. I’m sorry but it’s capacity aware marketing.

    So it’s like you only have so much capacity in any given day. To do things, and you have to market your business. So like, how can you fit this in, and so it like changes the conversations with people where, they’re like, I wanna do this, this, this, this, and this. And I’m like, okay, but you have a whole business to run.

    Is this really reasonable? And so I’m trying to really encourage people to ask those types of questions to really think about what they can, what their marketing strategy actually is, so that they can build it for success. Instead of saying that you’re gonna do 150 things and feeling like a failure because you did 20, like you should feel like a success because you did 20.

    And it’s just what you had capacity to do. So if we can build the capacity from the beginning that gives people more opportunities to succeed when it comes to things like ai. And it’s so tricky, because I and AI has become so. It has disrupted marketing more than Elon Musk buying Twitter, which is now X or more than TikTok hitting the scene and now.

    The US splintering off TikTok into its own formation with horrible, even more horrible privacy policies than we’ve ever seen. Like I know, I feel I sound like Trump. It’s the worst that we’ve ever seen, but it literally is the worst we’ve ever seen in terms of a privacy policy. AI has disrupted everything.

    And when it came, I remember it was right after I had hired Alti and I said there’s this thing chat, GPT. I don’t know if it’s gonna be a big deal or not, because I’ve been using AI for five or six years, and then I was actually surprised when that was the thing that like everybody latched onto is a big deal, but it’s terrible for the environment.

    We know this, it’s just as bad as crypto is for the environment. And at the same time I find that I have to use it so that I can compete with everybody else. And so it’s like a real, it like. It can be so cool. And then it also gives me some heartburn to use it and and I think that there’s a real struggle with that right now.

    You’re seeing it right now where a lot of people are saying like they don’t wanna see the junk. They wanna see the potential for what it can do, but then it’s also like a huge privacy risk or, it’s not even a risk, it’s just a threat really, to the privacy. And then, so there’s so many ways that we can look at the AI conversation, like in a silo from a marketing perspective.

    As a professional, I have to use it at least in some ways because I’m gonna get left behind, and also doesn’t mean I have to like it all the time, that I don’t like what it does. And I certainly don’t like the people in charge of it because I don’t think they’re using the right governance.

    I used to say that Claude and Anthropic had the right governance, but right before coming on this call, I read that they have lifted their guardrails, which was what made them so special for military purposes at least. And that is terrifying, because it still makes a lot of mistakes and the guardrails are what protects us from some of this stuff.

    I don’t. So I am very conflicted about ai. I help people navigate it. I do use it and and I’m concerned. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. Thank you for that. And for listeners, this is February, 2026 in a conversation that will span 

    Jen McFarland: a long 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: time, a lot of, a long time. But sometimes it’s good to make a record and make a mark in time.

    And I agree with you. You said it very, very, very well. And with that, what makes you optimistic? 

    Jen McFarland: Oh, like so many things, I’m like, I’m really optimistic about the generations that are coming after. Like I’m definitely not one of those people that’s like, oh, but we used to do it. Right. Except for drinking out of hoses.

    I still think that was okay. But I think that, like aside from that, the new generation they really excite me and it makes me really hopeful. I think that also with, everything I just said about ai and I said all that stuff before, aside from the anthropic comment, like all of this stuff is pretty timeless.

    Like all of those issues existed like three years ago. They’ll exist in three years too. So I’m optimistic because younger people as digital natives, as people who like. Understand the technology and how it works in ways that, like people older than me don’t, you know, because they grew up with it, like in their hand.

    They have a different way that they relate to work. They have a different way that they relate to the world and what they want. I’m seeing some really exciting conversations around the environment that have never happened before. And that makes me really optimistic. And, I’m optimistic about business.

    We survived this before, and and we’ll make it this time too. And it’s just, we just it just means that if you were in business, say during the pandemic, it’s almost like that again, where you have to really like, be agile and think about it. And I do feel like, we came through the pandemic and we were better.

    I think if we come through this we’ll be better. It’s just a matter of what it looks like and I don’t know, but that’s exciting too. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. But I’m always optimistic, my, my tagline that I don’t use nearly enough is fine joy marketing your business.

    And that’s why I like protecting your piece is so important because. If you don’t, you stop being joyful and optimistic and that’s really important for all of us. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. Find joy marketing your business and it can be fun. 

    Jen McFarland: Oh, absolutely. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: To make an expression that people resonate with can be really joyous.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah, and like marketing can be fun as long as you don’t listen to somebody who tells you you have to do. X, y, z like when you don’t want to do the things that you enjoy when it comes to marketing your own business. Yeah. There are people everywhere that, that need what you offer. So it’s about saying I like to do these things, and then doing it.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, 

    Jen McFarland: It sounds simple. It’s not you have to do, put some thought into it. But but yeah, everybody can do it and you need to do it your own way. That’s how you stay optimistic and hopeful, I think. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. And it gives some agency, may I share some data with you? 

    Yeah.

    Data. So I, I geek out on Nielsen every once in a while and they’ve done several studies on social enterprise and consumers, and I think it was 2014 and then another round 2017 where they said that. Two thirds of consumers globally are willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company has good values.

    And then the later one was about 73% were millennials. And I’ve always thought, and where I come in my work is, okay, great. There’s somebody out there who’s got great values as a business and somebody’s looking, how do they find each other? And that’s where marketing comes in. And that’s where the big gaps have been.

    And as a consumer, sometimes I am delighted when a company is very expressive about their values. And I have a friend that says, market your values like a product. Yeah. And yet I get so frustrated sometimes with the. The companies that I know have great values and I can’t find it anywhere unless I’ve had coffee with the person and they bring it up as an aside and say, oh yeah, by the way, we, we helped a village, or we help a village in some country, and they’ve done amazing things, but it’s nowhere.

    So that’s part of it. And then there’s a couple of other things that I’ve heard along the way that just helped me get through these times. And it’s like running a business, enjoying it, and being part of a community is an act of resistance. Also the other one that is just as important as working hard is rest as an act of resistance.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that’s what I’m working 

    Jen McFarland: on right now. I am not good at rest at all. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And in a way it’s interesting though. I find being in conversation with you here restful. It’s like it’s, it brings me. Fun. Yeah, its fun. It brings me joy and we all find our own things. Sometimes it’s not always sleeping, but you’re also talking about handling a book instead of digital.

    It gives the brain a break, and it may be different forms of rest, but business itself and how your values have always resonated to me, that’s, I think, one of the things I enjoyed from the first meeting and how dedicated you are to helping others. 

    Jen McFarland: The one thing that I will say that I, that also makes me optimistic or could be like one other tidbit to share, is that with all of this AI stuff it has made people less trustful of brands that are not forthright about their values, that aren’t talking about what they do.

    And so the underlying thing is that. Moving forward. So starting with this year, it really is about trust. So think about how you can get people, how you can share what you do so that people trust you. And a lot of times that comes back to things like values, impact, being integris in what you are doing, conscientious, like all of those types of things lead to.

    Customer trust, and so it’s do good work, have honest conversations. If you can’t do the work, tell people and help them find somebody else. There’s a lot of things. And so that actually makes me very hopeful too, that people aren’t just believing what the AI overlords are saying.

    They’re wanting to find and be in community with people that they trust. And so marketing is really about trust and I like that better than marketing being about AI and what it can make because it can’t make things that you and I can do. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, I agree. And even metrics. It’s nice to get the analytics, it’s nice to see how to tweak and adjust and, but I love that.

    Moving forward, it’s about trust. What more would you like to add and how can people reach you and how can people get on that newsletter?

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. I don’t know what else to add except, yeah I do think it’s important to get off. I also think that’s how we build better community among people that we don’t agree with, is to get them off of their devices and have real conversations. ’cause people say stuff online that they would, I hope it would never say to an actual person.

    So the more conversations that we can have the better I think we are as a community. I am excited about the fact that trust is just so critical right now. And I think that that’s gonna stick with us for a long time. You can find me all over the internet at Women Conquer Biz and then that’s my website.

    WomenConquerBiz.com. The newsletter is at WomenConquerBiz.com/newsletter and that’d be the easiest way to subscribe. I’ve also been very good about putting it on the bottom of blog posts and on every page to try and make it as easy as possible. The newsletter is super fun and it’s informative and really focused on.

    Small businesses, local businesses and then people who work in professional services to an extent as well. So coaches, consultants, experts which is probably why you like it, Kim, as an expert. And yeah. So yeah, find me. Let’s hang out. Let’s have coffee. Let’s chat. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. I love getting your newsletters and they’re the kind of newsletters I like to share, so I hope everyone will tap into that.

    And the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or deceased up to three people, one, two, or three people, who would they be and why? 

    Jen McFarland: Okay, so this is hard because there are so many people. But I decided to go with the three that came. Right away, like top of mind. And my guess is it’s possible that one of these people you’ve never heard of, so that could be interesting.

    So first, the first two people that you’ve heard of. One is Amy Poehler because she’s funny and fun and feminist. The next one is Ichiro Suzuki, ’cause he’s my favorite baseball player of all time. And the third person is Effa Manley. Who is the only woman in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. She was a civil rights activist and she owned a Negro League team with her husband and helped first of all, helped get African Americans into Major League baseball.

    And then also was really helpful to players so that they had income after. ’cause like back in the early days, baseball players did not make enough money to live and so she helped them with finance. Then, like I said, she was integral into the civil rights era and I just think she would be interesting to talk to.

    When I learned about her, I was like, wow, that’s so cool. Ichiro Suzuki has given the most money of any former player to the Negro League Museum to help keep the history of baseball alive. And and I just think he’s an interesting guy. He played for 20 years in Japan and then played another 20 years here.

    When we lived in Arizona, we would go to spring training games and he just had the most interesting routine before a game, like to get ready. And I just thought, that’s just so cool. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That blows me away. First of all, names I’ve never heard Amy, of course, no, but don’t know personally, but it’s what also strikes me about those two people is in their worldview.

    They did something small that was really mighty and not small. Globally, small, but not small to the people that they were serving, that those things were huge and how we don’t all have to spread broad and do big things Sometimes. It’s the deep niche and serving people. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: In a narrow sense and locally that can make some of the biggest differences.

    And when you were talking about those two that really struck home that I know nothing about baseball, I don’t know anything, but the fact that they helped people knew how to do it and made a difference that’s lasting. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Is something we can all think about in whatever niche we might wanna operate in.

    That’s amazing. 

    Jen McFarland: I guess that’s something else about me. I am. I love baseball. We have season tickets to the Pickles, which is our little Portland Pickles, wooden bat league. And and so yeah, the more I’ve learned about baseball, like there are these people who have like really helped with the community and then as they’re like butterfly wings, that have an impact beyond the immediate circle and, amy Poller would just be a kick, like Parks and Rec. I could relate to that on so many levels as a former like city employee. And and so yeah. And I just think that she would be fun and interesting to talk to. But yeah, I mean there are a lot of people who’ve done really big things and certainly I had some people in mind like JFK, who started the Peace Corps. But I’ve read some things about him that I find very troubling, so I’m like, I don’t know if I’d really wanna talk to him, as a person. These are people that I’ve read enough about that I think I would actually like, they would probably talk to me and be interesting.

    So yeah that’s why. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I appreciate that so much. What a delight. I appreciate you and I can see what people Amy Pohler, ’cause you make me laugh and have her you two in a room together, I think really something 

    Jen McFarland: you should come to be. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Fly on the wall. I’ll bus the table and.

    Bring you dessert. Thank you so much. This is a delight. Everyone, I appreciate you listening. This is Kim Allchurch Flick signing off and wishing you a good day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Jen McFarland

    Headshot of Jen McFarland smiling.

    Jen McFarland is a marketing strategist, former City of Portland digital transformation leader, and founder of Women Conquer Business, a mission‑driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing. After a decade of shaping policy and public‑facing digital services inside government, she saw firsthand how small businesses are underserved and often preyed upon. She built her business to change that. Jen blends deep expertise in digital strategy, SEO, and AI‑driven marketing with a values‑based approach centered on accessibility, clarity, and real‑world results. She now helps women‑owned businesses cut through overwhelm, build marketing they can sustain, and grow with confidence.

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  • Building a Business with Introverts’ Superpowers with Nedra Rezinas

    Building a Business with Introverts’ Superpowers with Nedra Rezinas

    Nedra Rezinas, a Portland-area business strategist and coach for introverted and empathy-driven solopreneurs, joins Kim Allchurch Flick.

    Nedra shares her journey from self-criticism and comparison to embracing a quieter, values-aligned approach to business, shaped by owning four businesses and noticing that her best clients preferred deeper conversations over small talk.

    They discuss stereotypes and confusion around introversion/extroversion, the idea of a spectrum (including ambiverts), and how energy is recharged differently—often requiring quiet or alone time for introverts.

    The episode covers challenges such as workplace expectations in sales and networking, social media pressure, and Zoom fatigue, along with practical strategies like auditing time and energy, taking small recharge breaks, and using quieter marketing approaches (email marketing, one-on-one conversations, and referral partners).

    Nedra highlights introverts’ strengths in listening and reflective sales, and describes creating a facilitated in-person “Quiet Networking” group for women business owners in a calm venue to reduce overwhelm.

    They also discuss noise levels in public spaces, the post-COVID shift in local business hours, balancing online connections with in-person community, and growing awareness including quiet rooms at conferences and more open discussion of neurodivergence.

    Nedra recommends Susan Cain’s book “Quiet” and mentions the podcast “Awkward Handshake.” She directs listeners to her website to sign up for her newsletter.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:38 Nedra’s Introvert Journey

    03:40 Introvert Labels and Spectrum

    05:38 Energy and Recharging Basics

    07:46 Workplace Expectations in Sales

    09:53 Recharge Strategies at Work

    12:10 Quiet Marketing and Sales Strengths

    14:27 Zoom Fatigue and Quiet Networking

    19:03 Finding Quiet Spaces Post-COVID

    21:50 Hope, Science, and Inclusive Spaces

    26:35 Resources, Contact, and Wrap-Up

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, welcoming you to a podcast with Nedra Rezinas. I’m so happy to be here with Nedra. Nedra is a business strategist and coach for introverted and empathy driven solopreneurs and businesses. She helps people build a clear path to a business they will love, and that reflects the true you while not having to be loud in an extroverted world.

    She lives in the Pacific Northwest and is a mom, dog owner, instructor, facilitator, guide, and love books, tea and Nature. Having owned over four businesses, Nedra brings all of her mistakes and successes into her practice to help guide her clients. She’s been nominated twice as one of the top 15 coaches in Portland.

    Today we’re gonna talk about building a business with introverts superpowers. What a great title. It speaks to me. How are you? 

    Nedra Rezinas: Good. Good to see you, Kim. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s good to see you. I don’t recall how long ago we met, but we’ve been together working at the SBDC Small Business Development Center in. Just in the world of entrepreneurs in the Portland area you’ve invited me to be a guest lecturer in a couple of your classes at Portland State, and you’re also on my advisory board, which I’m so grateful for.

    So there’s a lot of crossover and I admit to being an introvert, so I am always intrigued when you have something to say. So what has been. Your journey what is it like to come to a place where you’re reaching out to introverts and what have been the Q clues, cues and values along the way as you’ve had four businesses and and come to this point? 

    Nedra Rezinas: I think part of it is my own journey of realizing where I am and who, where I lie. So I think, just, since I’ve known you, Kim I think I’ve become a little bit more confident in my ability to help guide and coach people. And, but yet. I used to compare myself to other people and be like I’m not as outgoing, or I’m not as loud as ’em, or I’m just, is that okay?

    And I, I would just just critique myself and, not be very nice and be hard on myself. And then I realized, no, this is, there’s a path for this. There’s a way, there’s a way. That I can do this and relate with people. And what I started noticing too, is even throughout a couple different businesses, I had a web design business for a while and even a marketing coaching business, I kept seeing that my best clients tended to be more introverted and empathy driven and appreciated.

    The, not the small talk, but the deeper conversations we would have about their business, even who they were, like, be able to see them who they are and help them connect. Their love of what they’re doing and their own superpowers. Like sometimes people I think lose track of that and don’t remember what they’re best at or maybe think, ah, sadly, and I’ve been in this too, where they think their superpower is a detriment.

    They think it’s a hinder. It is hindering them or it’s hurting ’em. And that’s usually the opposite to some extent, depending on how you view it. So I think just through my own clients and my own personal journey, I’ve seen that. There is a, there’s a, there’s quite a few people out there that just want to be seen and heard, but in a way that reflects their values and understand that being more quiet or being more reserved or, not wanting to put your, not wanting to be on video, on YouTube is okay, and just being yourself where you’re at.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And do you think introverts have been stereotyped through time? Is it a stereotype to say introvert or extrovert? 

    Nedra Rezinas: It depends on the people. I was just even like at a small meeting last week with other business owners and even giving me, saying, I help introverted business owners.

    I get this interesting reaction of like, well, I’m an extrovert. Can you help me? Am I excluded from that? Or just even Ooh, tell me more. What do you, how do you define introvert? I think some people don’t even really know where they look. They are on the spectrum, and that’s okay.

    They don’t have to know. It’s, I think it’s just awareness of there’s a different way, maybe there’s different ways to do things. I think it’s thinking outside the box and being okay with maybe a little bit non-traditional path of how to market or how to do business, or how to sell your business, how to basically run your business in a sense, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah I agree with that. And how do you view introverts in your community and what has resonated as problems to be solved as you’ve gotten deeper into this work with that word, but the greater meaning of all of it? 

    Nedra Rezinas: I think generally speaking, a lot of my friends are introverted.

    I like, I feel like I’ve been, starting even in, in school, like even in high school I was a friend to many different groups. Almost like I, I’m a translator ’cause I can camouflage myself with extroverts for a bit and then, be really comfortable with the introverts.

    And I think I can see how there, if you don’t have that. Flexibility. It’s really hard to converse and understand each other, and I think we just need more of that ability as we see with the world right now. To be more open-minded and find common ground. And I think people are just really rigid in not wanting to find that common ground as much unless they have someone that can help them see that.

    I think there’s a lot of division that even when it comes to extrovert introvert, where people put people in the buckets, and that’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to, let’s see what we have in common. What can we , let’s start with something simple oh, we all like nature.

    Let’s start with that. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And I think it’s a little bit of science on it that says a lot of it has to do with how people process their own energy. And recognize like how to fill the tank back up. And for some people it, it’s being out in crowds that helps fill their tank.

    And for some people, and I’m one of ’em, I love being around people for a while. Yeah. But then there’s a point where to fill the tank means. Quiet time or alone time or, 

    Nedra Rezinas: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: something. Something like that. And that may be part of the difference. And how are people responding because this, someone working with that word still feels new to me.

    That it just hadn’t been addressed that much scientifically. A little bit. There’s been discussions but. The stereotypes have still existed and you’re breaking through a bit and saying, I do understand it. And what have the re, what have the response has been? 

    Nedra Rezinas: I think there’s been, I think there’s a number of people that.

    When I’ve talked about this in my newsletters or, in my workshops, they’re like, wow, you see me, you understand, you. No one really talks about these things. What This is incredible. Just, and then I think. And then there’s also like a, and then there’s this other group of people I think are like, wait, where do I fit in?

    I don’t even know. And I think there’s a bit of confusion or like ident, you know, self-identification. Like I don’t know where I’m supposed, where I’m supposed to be. And a little bit of a almost like a loss in trying to find their way. So it’s a, it is, I think. The more we can have discussions about it and understand that maybe some of us are not even, maybe just have more tendencies to one or the other.

    Or maybe we’re like even an Amber Vert, maybe we’re a little bit of both, and that’s that’s where I sit sometimes, depending on the day. But I’m also hearing more leaders like Brene Brown talk about it in her podcast. I’m starting to, I feel like we’re starting to see more emergence of people like that, talking about it and making it more.

    For lack of a better word, mainstream, to, to make it, to help us all have some definitions to work with that aren’t feeling like we’re labeling people, we’re actually gonna help ’em. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And you and I were talking before about what’s expected at work sometimes, particularly in something like sales and.

    I’ll share my experience in corporate sales. It was for medicine, and as I was a territory manager, which was usually a couple of states, I could fly, I could drive, I could be alone quite a bit. I, it was work from home and I loved calling on the clients and that was terrific. And then to go to a sales meeting.

    It was all extrovert all the time, and sometimes our sales meetings would last for a week. There would be, 

    Nedra Rezinas: wow, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: you expected to show up for breakfast or you expected to go to lunch? I expected to go to dinner and I learned to keep my sanity as I would go for walks at lunch and just completely skip it.

    And until somebody called me out on that. And then I became a manager and they said. First, when I was interviewed for a startup to be a manager, somebody said, you’re a loner in a quiet one. Like it was a bad thing, but I still had the job. And as I was hiring, one of the profiles that they had, they wanted us to hire was, vivacious and outgoing and all these words.

    And that’s a lot of energy. And yet I also realized that on the customer side, there ever some people who really appreciate and vivacious, outgoing, and some are like you and I, where they’d rather talk quietly, maybe have a cup of tea and have a discussion that’s not. Doesn’t include jokes and things and I, it’s to be careful not to stereotype, but when a company creates a profile, and this was a while ago, there’s some science that says that everybody can be good at sales or good at something regardless.

    But it’s when we’re shoved into a box. And what I noticed was long days and exhaustion often came from not having any time to myself. Oh, I bet. And I think people can definitely relate to that too. 

    And so when you’re, we’re talking with people, if they’re in those situations, what do you recommend?

    What do you offer if they’re in a place where they can’t control how much alone time or quiet time they get? 

    Nedra Rezinas: That’s a great question, Kim. I think, it is gotta be a way, possibly for them to audit their time maybe like a week audit or something, or their energy and just seeing if there’s opportunities maybe in different parts of the day where they can recharge themselves.

    If it’s not, like you said, if it’s like full on. Nine to five or even their lunch is demanding. Maybe there’s a way they can sneak away just to get outside for a minute. Like you said, walks are really good just to have some quiet time. Even if you can maybe put on some headphones just to have your own space.

    But I think outside of that, it’s really important in your off time to have that recharge, whether it be. Reading or doing a craft or doing something that can relax you, I think can also be helpful. But yeah, that’s hard. I, it’s, I think it’s just finding the little opportunities where you can and asking for permission to asking your, giving yourself permission to do, to take those breaks.

    I think that’s part of it. Sometimes I think we’re just so. We feel like we have to show up and have to do these things, but when in reality, we’re all adults here, we’re making our own choices, maybe you can find some wiggle room here and there to give yourself some grace and go hide out in your car for a minute if you need to, or go for a little walk.

    And people, it, it’s not gonna break a deal or make, people, I think there’s more understanding than there ever has been in this world.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think we’re in a good space. And what are some challenges in your work and that you’re seeing for people? 

    Nedra Rezinas: Can you gimme more, can you elaborate on that?

    I’m not sure if there’s a stick. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Challenges or obstacles like stereotypes might be one, but how they can navigate. A around a challenge in their work that where they may feel like they, they’d like to have a different way to do things or, okay. I’m not real sure. I think we all have some challenges and obstacles 

    And stereotypes that come up against, and I’m just wondering if people share anything with you that seems to be relevant in community or in their lives, in your life. 

    Nedra Rezinas: I think there’s a couple things. It’s maybe more you’re showing up I think there’s, we’ve talked about this a lot, like social media can be something that a lot of people, I think there’s a, I think there’s a big shift happening just recently where people are like, whoa, this is not where I wanna be hanging out.

    And it’s not depending, it doesn’t even matter if you’re introvert or extrovert at all. I think there’s a lot of awakening in for that, but, so it’s just, I think it’s just even putting where you’re putting your energy. So the challenge is, you need to, let’s say you’re a business and you just need to market yourself maybe, instead of leaning into social media, maybe email marketing or more quieter techniques are gonna help you.

    Leaning into more one-on-one conversations and building referral partners. There’s a lot of things you can do that aren’t demanding that you would put yourself on video and show up in the Instagram reels. I think that. I’ve seen so many business owners like just look at me, sadly, like, is that my only option?

    And it’s just nice to show and give them a path that no, you don’t have to do everyone else is doing. In fact, if you, it’s better if you don’t because that is such a loud. Like channel. It’s such it’s hard to be even seen or heard over that. So maybe do something a little bit different.

    I think the, another challenge that comes up is sales. Like you mentioned people, feel like they have to be like so outgoing and so vivacious and, invigorating. And that’s not what people always want. And the superpower of a introvert is listening and be able to listen to someone and see if you can.

    Their, what their problems are, what they’re facing, and how you can help them and reflect back. And I remember one time I had a one one web design client, and we had a we had a sales call and I took lots of notes and listened to ’em carefully and then refer, summarized back what he was looking for.

    And he’s like, I’ve interviewed different web designers and you’re the only one that actually listened to me. And I heard that a lot. I heard that. So I, and it’s nice to know that. The listening skill can be really helpful and can be a really great asset, especially when it comes to sales and working with clients.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I, I totally agree. And you brought up social media, which I feel as well, and sometimes the demand that we, in many businesses, we should be focusing on content and frequency and all of that. And that in itself can feel. Exhausting introvert or extrovert and targeted can be so much better.

    But the other thing is, before COVID there were more meetings in person during COVID, more meetings on Zoom and noticing that. And it all depends on the type of meeting. If it’s one-on-one camera, on feels okay. If there’s a group, and this is my. Personal thing. If there’s a group and there’s a lot of talking, sometimes even in standing in my own house alone, it can feel like too much noise and there’s a shift.

    What if I can turn my camera off? It actually feels different than when it’s on and yet I realize that turning it off. I’m also in rooms where when somebody else is off, I think, why are they engaging? And, but yet when I do, sometimes I feel like I’m engaging more. And then there’s some that are at webinars where there’s many, many people.

    And having a camera off is fine because it’s a learning, it’s not an engaging kind of thing. And I’m wondering what are your observations with Zoom and the increasing amount of time on Zoom and how it affects. The people you’re talking with. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Wow. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s a big topic. 

    Nedra Rezinas: It’s a big topic. I actually was in a meeting with other community builders last week and I think we’re all a bit burned out on Zoom to, and I think Zoom can be great and I think it’s a good tool.

    But I think what we’re gonna see and what we’re starting to see in the next year or two is a return to people in person and we and as introverts or people that you know, wanna be careful with their energy. That can be a delicate thing. So I think it’s it’s really important to find.

    What you’re seeking. And it could be through on, virtual meetings like and being careful with your time on that. But I think it’s also really important to be open to more in-person connections. ’cause I think as we are getting more and more like AI and tech in our worlds, we need more human connections.

    And so I actually created. Quiet networking. This is a in-person networking group for women. People identify as female business owners that tended to be introverted. And I started this up about six months ago and I started it around summertime and I was like, ah, I don’t know. I don’t feel are gonna show up for this.

    This is a risky thing. I had about eight women show up the first meeting, and so I’m like, okay, this is something people want. And I think. For, at least for me, especially when I go to a networking event, I like it to be very facilitated. I want, I don’t wanna have to do the small talk and mingle and hope I run into the right people.

    I have it very structured and any chance for it to have some deep conversations quickly and really connect with people and so I think the answer to Zoom is maybe less zoom more in person. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, it might be. And then I find sometimes the, where is important quiet spaces. Where if there’s networking and a lot of people talking all at once 

    The venue matters because some can really resonate noise and there’s a noise factor as well. And I know some people might thrive off that vibrant energy that comes from it. And then at the same time, there’s also, too much. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Oh yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I actually, too much noise. It’s too much reverberation.

    Too much vocal noise. And 

    Nedra Rezinas: you’re right. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it can make even having a conversation kind of stressful if we have to get closer together and talk louder to have a one-on-one conversation or a small group conversation because the networking is

    So big. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah, that’s why it’s really good to have more one-on-ones where you, or maybe smaller groups if you can, maybe having the, the coffee chats or the get to get know you, but maybe even doing it with a small group of people where you can all collaborate and get to know each other.

    I, there’s a new podcast that just got released. Awkward Handshake is what it’s called. Megan and Mary, some colleagues of mine, some friends started it and they’re basically breaking down their hole. Their whole like last year of going to multiple networking events and what they learned and sharing like stats and data it’s fascinating.

    So they, they talk on that kind of stuff too. And I know a lot of people that have these loops like ear protection like earplugs when they go to these things because it is so loud and I mean that that’s so sad. Commentary if people are wearing earplugs at these network events, like something needs to change.

    That’s why I wanted to start. One is very, I purposely chose Taper Space is a very quiet venue. Sometimes there’s kids in the background, but that’s a little different than saying loud voices all, dominating. And it’s a very calm space to hold an event.

    And I was very, I try to make that very purposeful and meaningful so that, when folks come, they are, it’s a grounding experience. It’s not they’re gonna leave uplifted, not, they’re not gonna have to recharge their battery. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that you brought up technology too, because it’s becoming like, how can we protect ourselves?

    And I’m noticing and giving reviews of when I experience it, even in restaurants when you’re trying to have. Restaurants where you wanna have a table of two or four or so and have conversations and have that intimacy. A restaurant can make that happen or not. And the noise level is huge. And I have noticed that there’s technology where people are wearing more like noise canceling in a way that is not for the table, but noise canceling.

    What’s reverberating around a room. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Exactly. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. What are your thoughts about the technology and still being able to try to go out and find places that quiet?

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah. I think we’re still like this phase of we’re very, we’re a little awkward and getting together and it’s, COVID did a number on us. It was really. It was, we went, we spent some time at home a lot, and it’s hard to get outta the house. And I think we’re just starting to see like movement in that regard.

    Business or personal, like trying to get together with people and what that looks like and feeling comfortable doing that. Here in Portland, I’m still seeing sadly the hours for a lot of these to try, just go into a coffee shop. It’s really short hours. Like there, it’s hard for places to stay open to be sustainable.

    It’s, I think it’s, it is a challenge just to even find a place that’s open at a certain time of day. You want to go meet someone? I don’t know. I, it’s, I think we’re in, we’re, we have a couple years to go before we figure this out and find some normalcy with it. It’s, I think it’s still like wobbly and how we are trying to figure that piece out, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I agree. And that’s about being local. I do also find that. Connections are coming up partly because of COVID and because of Zoom rooms and because of learning, actually meeting people that I’ve never physically been in a room with. And yet building some relationships with those people who are in other states, some, sometimes in other countries.

    And so I find the networks are shifting a bit as well. And I definitely wanna protect those relationships. And yet the local in person. Are very important as well, and it becomes some somewhat of a balance. I. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve definitely made a lot of great connections to folks in different cities over, the last five years.

    And yeah, it’s, I’ve had a chance to meet some of ’em like you’re saying. And it’s finding that balance of making sure you’re getting the right satisfaction and your needs met locally and online. It, this is new territory. We have never really done this before, so we’re still figuring out, with this all how this all is gonna play out. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, I, what makes you optimistic? 

    Nedra Rezinas: I am optimistic because I see, new way people are coming forward and with businesses that are helping people in ways that never happened before. There’s a lot of creativity and openness and folks saying, yeah, I might have this challenge, but I’m gonna go through and help these people and accomplish this thing.

    And I’m trying to think of a specific example here, but I’m drawing a blank. But I think, I just see people coming together and helping and supporting each other and building more community, and that’s what gives me hope right now. That’s what we need more of. And, none of us can do this in a vacuum or a, we don’t wanna be little silos.

    We gotta, people that have accomplished a lot of great things, done it with a community of other people, it’s never been by themselves. So we gotta remember that. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. I. That is so good. I also personally am optimistic that there’s more science on the topic of what makes an introvert or an extrovert and what stresses both and what’s better for both.

    And I was the kind of kid who would hide in a closet or hide behind my dad’s chair to read a book. And to me, that felt perfectly comfortable and fine and normal and to, 

    Nedra Rezinas: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And some people might say that’s really strange and. Some extrovert kids were always wanting to go out and play sports, and I also noticed my introversion came out in track and field I was great at.

    Team sports felt in intimidated and whether that’s part of 

    Nedra Rezinas: same 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: being an introvert or not, and what the science is starting to say is, and hopefully younger in schools that can give. Everyone a chance to feel okay with who they are. Yeah. And spaces and places. And I’m also noticing in things like conferences where some organizations are building quiet rooms in a conference space.

    Oh yeah. And quiet rooms and exhibit halls and places for people to go to and who are saying words like neurodivergent and finding ways to help people.

    We were discussing technology or technology science and awareness that might help create safer spaces for people when schools. But in conferences, learning spaces, and I was wondering what you’re seeing about that. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah. I’ve definitely seen more trend, more trending in that direction.

    I think you and I went to a conference a few years ago and I noticed they even had some quieter spaces to hang out in, which I really appreciated. Yeah, I’ve seen even just seeing business owners come out and feel more comfortable doing, doing business the way to play their strengths and play to who they are, maybe as introverts or neuro diversion or whatever is going on and I don’t think that was even possible five years ago.

    I don’t think that would’ve been. It wouldn’t have felt safe. I think people can talk about it a little more openly. So I think just even having conversations around it and feeling like you can even vocalize, this is how you. Lean or this is your tendencies, I think is huge. And we’re gonna just hopefully see more and more of that.

    So it’s not so awkward or strange, it’s gonna be more normalized. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. I totally get it. I do find it funny sometimes when I’m talking to people and I admit to being an introvert and they say, wow, I see you everywhere. You can’t be an introvert. And it’s, 

    And it goes back to how do we define it?

    And if we all have a different definition it’s hard to pin it down, but also. It doesn’t mean introverts don’t like people. It’s the, it’s like the dosage. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Exactly. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. Small times. But it’s having the private time, quiet recovery from that. That is important, at least to a lot of us.

    And I love that the, this is being recognized and discussed more and more. 

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah, like in that book by Susan Cane called Quiet, which came out almost like, I love that. Right? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, yes. 

    Nedra Rezinas: There’s that one part I remember I’ll never forget, and it helped me understand folks that, I’m not quite, I don’t, this was not my tendency, but there was this one professor, speaker that would get up and have these amazing talks in front of, hundreds of people and then and then they made me an after party and they were like, no, I need to go recharge. I need to, I can’t do that. I need to go sit by myself for a while. That was, I just drained my battery. And I think just understanding, I think just helping people understand how to recharge ’em, batteries and help them see ways, certain ways to live their lives.

    I think. It’s been for so many years this is the way to do things. This is the only path, this is the way, and I think I wanna help change that. No, there’s lots of ways you can run a business and lead your life and let’s explore those. Let’s talk about those so we can not feel like we’re always drained.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh I so agree. Is there anything else you’d like to add? And also, how can people reach you? 

    Nedra Rezinas: Yeah. My website is a good place because you can sign up for my newsletter. I have my newsletter. I have a lot of great things I share in that around introverted running, being a business owner, running a, running an introverted type of business.

    If you, sorry, scratch that. Running a business right, as a introverted person and what the challenges are and what this. Solutions could be and some insights and building a community around that and yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That sounds so wonderful. And the last question is, if you could have dinner with any one to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why?

    Nedra Rezinas: The first person that popped in my head was my husband’s grandmother Rita, who passed away. About almost two years ago, she was such. She was an outgoing person, but yet had a really gentle way about her. I love having my conversations with her. So I’d have her at the TA table for sure.

    And then I would also invite Ann Patchett, one of my favorite authors of all time. 

    And I know between the three of us, we’d have some really good conversations that would just be memorable. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that sounds delightful. And I love that you brought up the book quiet, because I read that when it came out.

    She has a whole online group system now. The Awkward handshake is another reference and resource, so I appreciate that. I think Anne Patchett would be really, really interesting. To have a dinner with as well. Thank you so much. It’s so great to have you here and everyone thank you for listening.

    Hoping you have a great day and a great month and a great year. Talk soon. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Nedra Rezinas

    Nedra Rezinas smiles while leaning against a stone wall outside.

    Nedra Rezinas is a Business Strategist and Coach for introverted and empathy-driven solopreneurs and businesses. She helps businesses build a clear path to a business they will love and that reflects the ” true” you, while not having to be loud in an extroverted world. She lives in the Pacific Northwest and is a mom, dog owner, instructor, facilitator, guide, and lover of books, tea, and nature. Having owned over four businesses, Nedra brings all of her mistakes and successes into her practice to help guide her clients. She’s been nominated twice as one of the “Top 15 Coaches” in Portland.

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  • Moving From Overwhelm to Sustainable Impact with Tessa Bridge

    Moving From Overwhelm to Sustainable Impact with Tessa Bridge

    Tessa Bridge, founder of Tessa Bridge Coaching, joins Kim Allchurch Flick to discuss helping social impact leaders manage pressure, avoid burnout, and lead sustainably.

    Tessa shares her path from developmental psychology and public education into community organizing, racial equity work, running for city council, and DEI consulting, and explains how her own burnout led her to focus on boundaries, values-based leadership, and community care.

    She identifies her core values as community, authenticity, and integrity, and discusses current challenges for nonprofit and social impact leaders in January 2026, including reduced resources, Trump-era budget cuts, moral injury, community violence, and rising authoritarianism.

    Tessa describes practical approaches she teaches – setting clear goals, making intentional choices about time and attention, building pauses for decision-making, and celebrating progress to increase agency – while emphasizing that sustainable leadership is part of resisting harmful conditions.

    She draws on Adrienne Maree Brown’s Emergent Strategy and the concept of fractals to connect personal practices (like releasing perfectionism and loosening tight control) to organizational and societal change, and explains facilitation as creating enough structure and safety for groups to take risks and collaborate.

    Tessa reflects on lessons from her city council campaign, including canvassing less-engaged renters, developing thick skin, and tying policy decisions back to transparent community values while holding leaders accountable without dehumanizing them.

    She notes she is writing a book on sustainability, justice, and entrenched leadership beliefs, encourages leaders not to struggle alone, and shares how to reach her via LinkedIn and TessaBridgeCoaching.com.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome + Meet Tessa Bridge (Sustainable Leadership & Burnout Prevention)

    01:32 Tessa’s Origin Story: Education, Organizing, and Equity Work

    03:56 From Burnout to Boundaries: Founding Tessa Bridge Coaching

    04:50 Core Values: Community, Authenticity & Integrity in Practice

    05:44 Host’s Burnout Wall Story + Why Connection Matters

    07:32 Why This Moment Is So Hard: Nonprofit Cuts, Moral Injury & Uncertainty

    11:25 Obstacles on the Ground: Funding, Violence, and Activated Nervous Systems

    13:13 Practical Tools for Overwhelm: Goals, Priorities, and the Power of the Pause

    17:54 Hope & the Ripple Effect: Fractals, Letting Go, and Gentle Justice

    21:19 Emergent Strategy & Fractals: Linking Self-Care to the Mission

    23:22 Everyday Facilitation: Welcoming Neighbors and Creating Connection

    24:43 How Tessa Facilitates: Team Coaching, Workshops, and Holding Space

    25:39 Local Organizing & Bridging Differences to Build Belonging

    28:04 Running for City Council: Lessons From the Campaign Trail

    32:18 Making Policy Human: Values, Accountability, and Trusting Community Wisdom

    34:42 What’s Next: New Book + Leaders Don’t Have to Do It Alone

    37:18 Closing Questions: Where to Find Tessa + The Dream Dinner Table

    39:55 Final Sign-Off and Farewell

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Welcome everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, willing welcoming you to today’s podcast. I’m with Tessa Bridge, who is a coach, facilitator, and founder of Tessa Bridge Coaching, where she helps social impact leaders manage the pressure to get it right so they can keep making an impact without burning out.

    She brings 15 years of experience as a public education administrator, community organizer, organizational leader, political candidate, and consultant. After facing her own burnout in high stakes leadership roles, Tessa is now dedicated to ensuring other values driven leaders have the tools and support they need to create lasting change without sacrificing themselves.

    Her work is grounded in the belief that sustainable impact starts with sustainable leadership. That’s just beautiful. I’m so glad you’re here. The title is Moving From Overwhelm to Sustainable Impact. So welcome Tess. It’s a delight to have you here and we met because of a mutual friend Pallavi Pande, who’s also on the podcast series.

    So glad to have you here. 

    Tessa Bridge: I’m really happy to be here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So we’ve spoken before and I am just so intrigued and for these times and others, what you’re doing. Seems profoundly important. And what has been your journey and your values from, in, from early childhood or wherever you wanna start to now? Yeah. What’s been your guiding force in Muse?

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. I think from a very young age, I’ve always been motivated to make the world a better place and I was very focused on fairness, even as a young kid. And so I always knew that I. Wanted to go into social justice, equity focused work. From the beginning of my career, that’s where I put my energy and I’ve always loved children and so I initially entered into this work from the education space and my undergraduate was in developmental psychology and I wanted to be in a practical, real world environment.

    And so that’s how I ended up working in, in public education. And, as time unfolded and opportunities came and I learned more and more, I moved into a number of different roles. First in, in school districts, but also I did a lot of community organizing, electoral organizing in my community.

    And, really came to see the power and the importance of community coming together to create change where you live. And from that I actually ended up running for a city council in the community where I lived at the time. And I also ended up getting much more involved in racial equity work.

    In the public school space. And from there went on to found a company doing diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and coaching with two other women who I had worked with in a previous role. And for the last, I would say five plus years I have been in more of this coach consultant role helping organizations, helping, social impact leaders, both in for-profit and nonprofit spaces, figure out how to lead with their values and bring equity and inclusion into what they’re doing every day, both inside their work and in the way they work with their community. So for me, it’s really been a both a professional journey, but also a personal journey.

    And Id say that in that process I’ve lived myself and also supported other leaders who have. Really sort of struggled with caring so much about what they do and seeing the importance of what they do and wanting to use the power they have to really make a profound difference in the world. And also feeling really like they have to get it right.

    They can’t make a mistake. Like things are very high stakes and how exhausting that can be and how overwhelming that can be. And I’ve had my own journey with burnout. And really having to figure out how to really lean into my values in ways that feel aligned for me and do that publicly and also learn how to.

    Set boundaries, protect myself and my peace and figure out what to say yes to and what to say no to. And I’ve worked with a lot of other folks who have sort of struggled to find that balance as well. About two years ago I founded Tessa Bridge Coaching and now I work with social impact leaders.

    Who are in that dance of trying to figure out how do I live bravely, lead with my values really embody what I wanna see in the world and also create spaces for, ease, self care, community care and release some of that pressure because we can be very, very hard on ourselves. So that’s like a, just a little bit about my story and I’ll just say in terms of values, my core values are community, authenticity, and integrity. And community to me really means that we’re all tied up together, right? My wellbeing is tied with your wellbeing, and we show up for each other with our whole hearts.

    It also means that. I ask for what I need and I honor what other people need. So it’s that clear communication piece and the authenticity and integrity is really like I do what I’ll say I do. I’ll, yeah, I do what I’ll say I’ll do. And I’m honoring what I believe and my true self in how I show up.

    And so it’s like holding both of those pieces, like the community and the authenticity and integrity is I think, really central to how I see the world. And also how. I do my work in the world supporting other people. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I really appreciate that. And it’s so beautifully put and it reminds me of conversation I had with someone who else, who just was talking about our brains and she said there’s some people who believe that, our brains are creative and we do things, we’re very much in our brains, but our brains are also receivers.

    Yeah. Like receivers of, call it energy, call it intuition, call it whatever it might. Be, but the connectiveness in some cultures is much more understood and revered than in others. But that connectiveness is, it is really there and it’s really strong. And often we don’t utilize it as much as we should.

    And when you were talking I was thinking about that. I also wish I’d known you a few years ago when I hit a corporate life, hit a huge wall. I went on a vacation, which I hadn’t had in a long time. ’cause usually there was so much work I felt I couldn’t even take a vacation. I took a vacation and I was so burnt out that I sat in a hotel balcony in I lot Israel, looking at ABA Jordan over the Red Sea.

    I had books, I had postcards, I had everything. And I sat there and just looked. I didn’t even have the, it wasn’t lack of energy, it was. Bandwidth to the point where the hotel called me to ask if I was okay. ’cause all they did Oh wow. For two days was order, room, service and sit on the balcony. Yeah. But it kind of, I was like that and I realized that was a wall, but it was also a reset.

    Yeah. I was like, I, my brain couldn’t, didn’t want more stuff. More inputs. Yeah. And then I started to relax and 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I wish I’d known you then. So for anybody who feels like that, there’s somebody to call. And so this is January 20, 26. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And in the work you do and what we see and people doing beautiful work what is current for you?

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think. In some ways this is like a really particular and specific time to be doing this work. A lot of the folks I support are nonprofit leaders, the nonprofits. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    Tessa Bridge: Industry has been really impacted by Trump’s budget cuts, organizations that we’re working with, very few resources to begin with are now having to make really impossible decisions at a time when the need is.

    So high. And one of the things that we know leads to burnout is that sense of moral injury, right? Like I, I am unable to do what I think is moral and right, because of the system that I am within and so many. Nonprofit and social impact leaders, and really all of us are grappling with that.

    So I would say that’s really specific to this moment and that a lot of what we are experiencing now is sort of a ratcheted up of things that have been true for a very long time. And part of what I see as possibility perhaps in this moment is. Perhaps this is our moment where we actually get to say like, okay, these strategies that have allowed us to get by, many of which are like, we’re gonna push through no matter what.

    We’re gonna do more with less. We’re gonna be scrappy. These things that are come from a place of like deep care motivation and are good strategies, aren’t going to be the long term things that are gonna move us through this moment and into what comes next, which hopefully is, it’s brighter than where we are now.

    So I think one of the things that I’m really working with folks on is like, how do you make really challenging choices and get really clear in your values and your options as you navigate that. How do you stay really grounded in. The midst of huge uncertainty, right? What are we doing to ground ourselves and our nervous systems every single day, particularly as leaders, because we are the barometer of our organization, right?

    So when we are grounded, when we are clear, we can actually help those around us to be clear. And I think that modeling component is critical right now. And how can we actually, think differently as opposed to keep going back to the same things that maybe have gotten us through difficult things in the past, but just barely.

    As you were describing, it’s so often we have to hit that wall, be in a complete state of burnout to say okay, I’m willing to try something different. Particularly for those of us, many leaders are really high achievers who’ve been really successful and have been able to just sort of power or muscle through.

    Challenges in the past, and maybe now is the first time or one of the first times that they’re hitting that wall like you described. And it’s okay, so you know, you’ve got this great toolbox and there might be some things that aren’t in that toolbox that you can add, or some tools that you’ve used in the past that may not be serving you in this moment.

    So I think those are a lot of the conversations that I’m having with my folks. And in some ways I feel like. I feel very grateful that I had my own burnout experience prior to this moment. It’s like everything happens for a reason. I do believe that. And so I feel like I have learned for myself and my own lived experience how to manage some of these challenges in a way that I’m really grateful to have that wisdom so that I can then share that with other people who are going through that right now.

    And I’ll just say, I had a coach at that time. Which was transformational for me, so it, this idea of paying it forward of how do we show up with and for the people who are around us? Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is so beautiful. And what are you seeing besides some of the seemingly obvious ones for these times, but what are some obstacles you, your clients, and your community are dealing with?

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. Funding is a really big one, as I said. And just generally like the violence that we are experiencing in our communities, particularly for folks who are doing frontline work, is really materially impacting people. And all of our nervous systems are activated by witnessing.

    Or experiencing the violence that’s happening in our communities and rising authoritarianism in our communities. And so again, I just come back to that it’s hard. It’s hard in some ways to talk about burnout, to talk about slowing down, to talk about being creative in our leadership in a time of so much uncertainty.

    But I really do believe that it’s actually an essential time to talk about it because we, when the way we treat ourselves and the way we treat each other is part of how we resist what’s happening in our country. And it’s like building in how do we do this amidst so much uncertainty. It’s like we’re just jumping right into the masterclass in a lot of ways.

    But I’m experiencing like actually a lot of openness to that because I think people are in a place where they’re like, it’s very clear that we have to do something. D differently or in a different way. And I’d say that’s something that makes me feel really hopeful is the number of conversations I have with folks where they say this is so critical, I really need that.

    And I think that openness, creates like a huge amount of opportunity. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that quote. We’re just jumping into the masterclass and we’re open to it. Yeah, just dive right in. 

    Tessa Bridge: That’s right. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Necessity is a form of invention, right? 

    Tessa Bridge: That’s 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: right. 

    Tessa Bridge: Exactly. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And what are you sharing with people that they can do, and what are you seeing that people are doing and that listeners could take away is, especially when we’re feeling.

    Overwhelm is kind of an overused word, but it’s more than that now. There’s, 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: definitely life issues. And then there’s current issues when they’re feeling like they don’t know where they can capture an action or a point of resistance or resolve that they feel good about what? What do you think are some things people can actually do for themselves or with you?

    Yeah. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. So one of the things I work a lot with clients on is defining goals and then really making choices about time, attention, and resources. Because although we would all love to have infinite resources, we do not. And for big hearted social impact folks, I’m one of them too, right?

    We can want to solve every problem and we can feel really responsible for solving every problem and. In fact, if we each do our part and get really clear on what that is and really move the balls that are ours forward, trusting that other people are gonna do their parts too, we can have much more impact than if we are bouncing around between so many things.

    That’s when you lose a lot of energy. So one of the things I really work with folks on is like getting very clear about your goals, like really specific, and then each thing that comes across your desk. Measuring, does this move me closer towards my goal? Is this something I wanna say yes to? And even building in that pause to say, this might be important, like this is likely a good thing, but is it aligned with what I have set as my priorities or my organization’s priorities?

    Creating that breathing space to set, to make that as an act of conscious choice. Helps you to stay more focused and creates a feeling of agency versus these things are happening to me. So really seeing where there is choice is something that I really work on. And then really celebrating when you are moving those things forward, right?

    It, when there’s always so much more to do, we kind of just jump to the next thing. But if we set these goals and we took the actions we said we would take towards the goals, right? Actually, like closing that loop is incredibly important and being like, here’s what I did, right? I did what I said I would do, I followed through and here’s the impact of that.

    Now I’m gonna move on to the next thing. Really taking that time, just like slowing down our process to have that celebration. And I would encourage leaders to do that with their teams also, because that sense of franticness I can’t really sustain in that for a long time. So that’s one big piece.

    Yeah. That I think is really, really critical and helps organizations as a whole to feel like, okay, we are wrapping our arms around something and we are moving forward this constant pivoting. Sometimes it’s necessary to pivot, but the constantly pivoting and leaving, things have done all the time.

    It may it doesn’t contribute to a feeling of having agency and having power. And that can be very demoralizing. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s why I really enjoy talking with you too, because, I, myself and some of it is cultures and paradigms where you feel like you’re working in a pinball machine or something.

    Yes. It’s just all about speed and, but also hearing quotes, things like a good, healthy business is a form of resistance. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And rest is a form of resistance. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I, myself, looking back at myself, thought I can never slow down. 

    Tessa Bridge: Right. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And then, hence hit a wall. But that was what was expected a lot of times.

    And 

    Tessa Bridge: yes, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: so breaking some of the moles of expectation and all these things that you said about taking a pause. I also think through time people are learning more and more that values are more than a list of words. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes, definitely. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And sometimes, particularly if money is needed, there’s a sense of, well, we could compromise on this to get this client, but it’s not perfect, but we need the money to stopping that thought process and sitting as a team and saying, okay, these are our values, does everything about what we are about to do.

    Reflect well on these and use the values as the primary decision matrix. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: To actually talk through them. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I, I love how you phrase doing that and taking that pause, but a pause also gives us strength. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: We breathe, breathe in and breathe out every day. And the breathe out part can’t live without it.

    So we can, yeah. We can think of that in the other forms of work as well. Yeah, 

    Tessa Bridge: definitely. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What, what in this makes you optimistic? 

    Tessa Bridge: I get, I partially, I just really believe that another world is possible. Like I believe that in an embodied way, right? So I think each step that we’re taking is moving us closer to a more just world. The line is not straight. It isn’t gonna happen without our effort for sure. And I see the ways that we are shifting to, to bring that world into being right.

    I, and that I choose to put a lot of my energy and attention in that place. And that does make me hopeful. I think also I love Adrian Marie Brown’s work on fractals, and I think a lot about. What happens at the small is reflected at the large. And my background is in movement work, right?

    So I do think on systems level changes and I think when we do this work internally with ourselves. It creates ripples that are critical to create the bigger ripples. So like when I, or a client of mine works on my sense of perfectionism that everything has to be done just right, that taking a risk is too scary because I might mess it up and what would that say about me?

    And I, actually do some work around releasing on that and not holding so tightly. And then I’m able to, think more creatively, try new things. Allow someone on my team to take a risk because I am trusting, like maybe it’ll work, maybe it won’t, but we can handle and figure out what comes next.

    That then ripples out into how does my organization function? What are we willing to try, which then ripples out into our community, which then ripples out into our broader community, into our movements into the world. I think so often we are unintentionally holding so tightly. To the way we’ve always done things because it’s scary to try something different and that inadvertently is keeping us stuck in a lot of these patterns.

    So the coaching work 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed yes. 

    Tessa Bridge: Where I’m, doing that work and creating that space for people to, in many ways, like crack open and take risks in that way. I think that is part of how we get to the. The better world because if we’re holding tightly, then we’re gonna stand still. And that’s not working.

    So I feel very hopeful the more I do this work about the possibility that comes from that and the gentleness that comes from that. That there is a gentle way to seek justice. I mean rigorous and active. And also gentle, right? Like that we can combine these pieces. Yeah. I see a lot of hope.

    I see a lot of hope there. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is so beautiful. I’m listening to you. I wrote down a couple of quotes Yeah. With the one about holding tightly that, that really resonates because we do tend to. Hold each other tightly and sometimes that can be too much. Letting go and having more loose connection is more emotion, but also holding tightly to belief.

    Yeah, holding tightly to paradigms. Holding tightly to perhaps rituals and how we think, I’m not talking religiously, but things about how we form our own patterns sometimes and don’t recognize them. And patterns can be wonderful and they can also sometimes need to be broken. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And you mentioned one of my favorite words, fractals.

    How did that book in inspire you and what is 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: what does that mean? 

    Tessa Bridge: I’ll say, when I read that book emergent Strategy, it was the first time I had actually heard the word facilitator as a job or as a role. And I was like, oh my God, that’s me. Like, I like, so that one’s just like pretty transformational for me just to be like, this is a real.

    Community role to play, to be facilitator. So I think that in and of itself, for me was really powerful. And I think the connection of the big and the small is so critical because I think I’ll just speak for myself. Like I sometimes feel like, okay, I’m gonna, yes, I know I should do this and I know I should do that, but the mission me is worth it.

    So I’m going to, move fast and power through and do all these things and overwork myself and whatever the thing is take because the mission is worth it. And I think the logic of fractals, where it’s like the way we move is what we are creating doesn’t mean we never, ever move fast, right?

    But just to bring the mindfulness and the in intentional intentionality to like, these are mirrors of each other. I really think about that, I would say on an almost daily basis because it can feel indulgent. To pay attention to yourself and to focus on these small pieces when there are so many big things happening.

    But they are intricately connected and so the way we treat ourselves, the way we treat our neighbors, the way we are in community with other people. The way we support our team is not separate from like our bigger vision of what we’re trying to build or create. It’s actually a part of it.

    And so I try to make that explicit as much as possible. Yeah. And her writing around that has been really like, key for me. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you that inspires and that word is so beautiful and it also reminds me in conversations with others that. There are people that I’ve spoken with, the one who lives in an apartment building and it dawned on that person that they don’t know their neighbors.

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And there’s something about these times that it inspired to say, bake some cookies and knock on a door and say, Hey, are you okay? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And hand ’em over a few seconds of connection. And I also love what you said about facilitation. And I think in these times what we also see is some spontaneous facilitation.

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And somebody’s out there doing something individual, indivisible in a big way is doing a lot of fa facilitating. But even locally on a street, people facilitating something. Or sometimes we’ve seen when there’s an accident, somebody will set up something, somebody else will make a call, somebody else will direct traffic.

    It’s within us. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That facilitation. And what is it that inspires you about that word and how do you actually facilitate, because your work is a lot of coaching, which is a form of facilitation. Yeah. What other types of facilitation do you see 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. In 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: your world? 

    Tessa Bridge: So I do, team coaching, and I also do trainings and workshops, so that is like directly facilitating groups which I really love to do. It facilitation is a little bit of a dance of like creating the space and bringing in whatever the content is, but then allowing the group to fill that space. And you’re creating like just enough structure and safety for folks to be able to take risks and be vulnerable in there.

    But allowing the flexibility for the group to go where it needs to go. And I really love that. And that’s a skill I’ve like very intentionally worked on myself to be able to hold that space in that way. And I think, as you’re saying, sometimes it’s not like I’m like capital F facilitating. I think it’s just when somebody is new to your community, how do you welcome them in? When somebody has something or needs something and you know somebody else has it, how do you connect them? Just how do you bring people together? And I think so many of us lead such siloed and individualistic lives, and I just really believe that coming together.

    Fills us up and makes us stronger and builds connections right where we are. It’s part of why I got into local organizing, right? It’s just like I wanna be a part of and have impact in the community where I live, right? It’s the federal government so far feel so far away and so challenging to influence or impact no matter what the administration sometimes, and.

    But here in our local communities, we can make a really big difference with our voices, with our energy, with our votes, with our organizing. 

    And that is really powerful to make the community into something where everyone belongs and has what they need. I think that’s like the driving force for me of a lot of what I do.

    And yeah, like bringing people together. Not being afraid of disagreement or differences of opinion, right? Creating space where we can have co, have things in common and maybe have some things not in common, right? We don’t have to agree on everything, but where we are collectively working.

    Towards building towards like a community and a future for everyone. And I think that is a thing that makes me really optimistic. Like these smaller examples of community and community care and neighborliness and knowing each other. I think that’s part of what gets us where we need to go.

    Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes me optimistic as well. And to that point, there’s a couple things. I know there’s other studies, but there have been a couple of interesting thought experiments through Great Britain where they did that on purpose. And one was just putting two people together that they know were politically on different.

    Different pathways and they said, whatever you do, don’t talk about politics. But they put people together and say, have lunch. And what came out of it was they discovered what they had in common. How many kids they have, how many if they do or don’t, what what movies they like. Oh, these things that melt some of the tension and bring it back to, we all wanna keep.

    Our family’s safe. We want a community where we feel safe, we wanna go to movies, we wanna buy food, we all these things that are so common. And yeah, I was thinking about that when you were talking about that. And I’m also wondering how and congratulations on your, I look at it as a brave thing ’cause I’m such an introvert and I’m a backstage player, but how was your experience running for city council and what do you learn about community?

    And policy, which some people, yeah, and I’m one of them sometimes that feel like policy makers and legislations are a different world than community. Yeah. But they shouldn’t be. Yeah. They should be. So intersected. What are some things that you can share about that experience and what can we, as people do to help get our voices across to legislators and policy makers?

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, that’s a great question. There were many things that were really amazing about running, running. I didn’t win. So there’s that. That’s okay. There were many things, but you ran 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and 

    Tessa Bridge: that’s, but I did, I ran and I ran because I was asked to run by my community. And I think for me that was critically important, like that I felt I had been doing organizing work and, people who I trusted, who knew me, encouraged me to do it. And so like that service orientation I think for me was really important. So I was rooted in the community when I did it, so that matters. And that really was my orientation. And I was living in a progressive community that had a fair amount of resources.

    And so I really ran a campaign that was sort of like. Let’s do the things that we need to do, right? Let’s say like we are going to build more housing. We are going to come up with 

    Creative solutions to supporting folks’ mental health. Like we are going to run a campaign based on like, how do you actually create dignity or treat people with dignity?

    And we can do that. We can do that here and we can then be a model for how to do that. And that was my approach. And I mean it’s a massive learning curve. Like it’s one thing to have worked on political campaigns, but to be the candidate is a massive learning curve. I had to learn how to get very clear on what I was articulating, both in a one-on-one conversation like this, like when I’m knocking the door, but also in a debate and also in an op-ed, and, just like, how am I gonna really clearly say what I wanna say again and again, I had to really learn.

    How to take criticism and figure out like what is criticism that’s like constructive and I wanna take this on board, which of course there was. And what is criticism that’s like, fair enough, but that isn’t going to penetrate to me. Like I’m, this is just not something that actually is helpful or that I want to let in.

    You have to learn how to have a thick skin. Interesting. And. Mostly, I just talked to so many people. Like I, I talked to so many people and that was like a real joy and a real honor to be, people open their doors and you’d stand there. And you talk and you ask what’s going on in your life?

    What do you need? Here are some things that I think, what do you think about that? Some of those conversations are very feel good. Some of those conversations are challenging, but I think just. Being willing to have those conversations. I made a commitment that in my race I was gonna really put energy and time into canvassing folks who are less politically engaged.

    So we had a lot of renters in our community who don’t tend to vote as much in local elections. So I put a lot of energy towards that. Bringing people into the political process. Like this is what a local election is like, are you registered? Like how, inviting folks into that. And that was really important to me.

    So I really try to live out my values in that campaign. And I think you asked me something else about policy. What was the other part of your question about policy? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, it’s about. That policy and legislation can seem distant. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And how to make it tangible and also to be able to share a voice that can help support or at least question or move those heavy hitters that are 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Making those decisions. 

    Tessa Bridge: I think it goes back to what the example you gave about when you have to make hard decisions. And there are a lot of variables out there, right? Like you gave the example of we need the money. Do we take this contract? Centering the values in that if you are clear on your values and you have been transparent with your constituents about your values and you are making a vote or bringing forth legislation, I would say you should be able to articulate the ties between those things.

    It sometimes gets opaque and wordy and that is true, like writing legislation is a specific skill. And it’s not gonna necessarily make everyone happy all the time. And I think that’s another thing I really learned in this is the tendency we have to put our leaders on a pedestal and create that distance and almost like a lack of humanity with folks who are sometimes in leadership.

    Because leaders are gonna make mistakes, they’re gonna learn. And if we think it’s supportive of where we wanna go. Supporting them in that journey and staying with them through that journey. I think rather than, treating folks as expendable is important and we need, do, need to hold our leaders accountable, right?

    So it’s like a both and but I think just like tying to the values and being able to tell the story in a way that makes sense to. Everyday people who put you where you are. I think that is something that sometimes gets lost in our political system, or you can tell which you can tell which politicians are doing that and which aren’t.

    So I, I think that like really trying to this is what we believe as a community, and either what you’re doing is supporting that or it isn’t it doesn’t have to be that much more complicated than that. And I think that’s part of what we’re seeing. It’s like when the value. When there’s that values disconnect, we know what that feels like.

    And so in some ways, it’s like really trusting ourselves and our intuition around what is okay and what isn’t. And that we as the community have the right and the wisdom to hold our leaders accountable to do that 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: we have the right and the wisdom. I love that. Thank you. And thank you for running it.

    It matters. It counts it all, it really does matter. Action matters. What is, what more would you like to share before we start to get into our closing questions? 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, I I’d like to share that I’m writing a book. It’s, it, I hoped that it’ll be ready by now, but it’s not quite. But it will be coming out at some point this year.

    And that is about a lot of the things that we’ve talked about here. Like how do we, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: excellent. 

    Tessa Bridge: Creates just sustainability in the way we lead while being relentlessly focused on values and on justice. How do we hold both those things and some of the beliefs that are so deeply entrenched for so many of us but maybe keeping us stuck in doing things in the same way so.

    Keep an eye out for that. And the other thing I guess I’d like to say is just that people don’t have to figure this out alone. I feel like particularly when we are in leadership roles, it can feel really scary to admit like, I don’t know what I’m doing, or I feel really bad all the time, or I have lost the spark that I once had for this.

    Or, I thought I was prepared, but. Now I’m feeling woefully unprepared. Can I even do this? All these thoughts that kind of keep us awake at three in the morning. And there’s really no reason to do it alone because, I have the privilege of seeing across people and across organizations and so many folks are struggling with the same thing.

    So just whether that’s finding a coach who you can have a judgment free space with to like actually unpack where you might be stuck and begin to make those changes. Whether that’s really opening up with other leaders and creating community around the challenges that we are facing in this moment, I just think.

    The more we are able to be open and honest about that, the more we’re gonna be able to build a different way to move forward. And I think leaders deserve that gentleness and that care. And people deserve leaders who have that, who have done that work, right? Because it will make us. Better what we do.

    So just you don’t have to do it by yourself. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that is so profound. People deserve leaders who have done that work and I think many of us who’ve had managers know the difference. Yes. And that team work is also when it’s team care and team involvement and team engagement. 

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That it builds such a.

    It’s so much stronger than isolation and just doing work because for the paycheck, but doing work for the joy and collaboration is a whole different feeling. Thank, yeah. People want their 

    Tessa Bridge: humanity. Humanity to be part of their work where we spend most of our days, you know? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: In indeed. And this will be in the show notes along with connections for purchasing the book.

    How can people reach you? 

    Tessa Bridge: You can find me on LinkedIn if you just look for Tessa Bridge and you can also go to my website, which is tessa bridge coaching.com. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Perfect. And the final question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or dead up to a table of four that includes you, who would that person or person be and why?

    Tessa Bridge: Yeah, I had fun thinking about this question. So the first one is my best friend, her name is Rose. She lives in Boston, which is where I used to live. I miss her very much, and we talk on the phone all the time, but if I could have dinner with someone, I would love to have dinner with her.

    And the Y is just, there are those people, we all have them in our lives who just lift our spirit and are like the touch people, touchstone people who we can be fully ourselves with. Who we leave those connection points like more energized than when we came together. And I just think. We need to spend as much time with those people as we can.

    And Rose is one of those people for me. And then on a different level. I would love to invite a OC to dinner. I really admire her. We both entered politics around the same time, although obviously our trajectories were different, we’re similar ages. And I would just love to learn from her how she is able to.

    Stay focused, how she takes care of herself. And how she’s navigated the spotlight she’s been under while doing so many powerful and important things that really make a material difference in people’s lives. So 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: indeed, 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah, she’s somebody who really inspires me. And then the third person I thought of was my grandmother who passed away.

    When I was a teenager, but she’s the one who taught me when I was a kid that slower is faster. That was one of her sayings and I think of her all the time, and that’s one of those seeds of wisdom that I heard one way as a child, but that has come back around for me in so many different ways.

    Throughout my own journey, and I would love to sit down and have dinner with her as an adult and be able to really hear her wisdom at this stage of my life. Because even that gem, has traveled with me and so shaped the way that I see the world. And I think the three of them would be one hell of a dinner party.

    So

    Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I wish we lived in the same city because I would love to have dinner with you. I think that would 

    Tessa Bridge: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: be the beginning of one of my tables. Wonderful. I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Tessa Bridge of Tessa Bridge Coaching for this conversation in January, 2026. And this is Kim lik signing off, which you all have.

    Very good day. Take care. 

    Tessa Bridge: Bye. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Tessa Bridge

    Headshot of Tessa Bridge, smiling at the camera.

    Tessa Bridge is a coach, facilitator, and founder of Tessa Bridge Coaching, where she helps social impact leaders manage the pressure to “get it right” so they can keep making an impact without burning out. She brings 15 years of experience as a public education administrator, community organizer, organizational leader, political candidate, and consultant. After facing her own burnout in high-stakes leadership roles, Tessa is now dedicated to ensuring other values-driven leaders have the tools and support they need to create lasting change without sacrificing themselves. Her work is grounded in the belief that sustainable impact starts with sustainable leadership.

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  • Integrative Leadership and Entrepreneurship with Lindsay LaShell of Buffalo Collective

    Integrative Leadership and Entrepreneurship with Lindsay LaShell of Buffalo Collective

    Lindsay LaShell, founder and lead navigator of Buffalo Collective, joins Kim Allchurch Flick to discuss her journey as an entrepreneur, the values that drive her work, and the mission behind Buffalo Collective, a community offering solopreneurs and lone leaders the support they need to thrive. Lindsay explains her vision of creating ‘communities of integration’ where personal and professional growth go hand in hand, emphasizing the importance of connection, self-acceptance, and courage in facing challenges together. She also explores the potential of psychedelics in facilitating self-actualization and healing, and shares her future plans for the Buffalo Collective, including her unique approach to retreats and ongoing integration support.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

    01:18 Lindsay’s Entrepreneurial Journey

    04:20 Founding the Buffalo Collective

    06:11 The Concept of Herd Mentality

    07:09 Building a Supportive Community

    09:45 Challenges and Insights of Entrepreneurship

    17:57 The Importance of Integration and Authenticity

    25:26 Embracing the Buffalo Spirit

    25:50 The Power of Community and Connection

    27:26 Psychedelic Retreats and Integration

    28:58 Future Vision and Business Strategy

    31:21 The Role of Psychedelics in Healing

    33:35 Addressing Psychedelic Hesitations

    37:55 Upcoming Events and Personal Values

    43:39 Final Thoughts and Reflections

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Welcome everyone . I’m Kim Allchurch Flick. I am really pleased to be here with Lindsay Lashelle, who is. An amazing human being that I met at We The Change. And Lindsay is the founder and lead navigator for Buffalo Collective, a community of integration that gives lone leaders and solopreneurs the support structure and connection that they need to thrive.

    She’s an experienced digital strategist and purpose-driven founder with a deep belief in the power of entrepreneurship as a path to wealth, justice, and self-actualization. Lindsay, welcome. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. The second we got introduced, I feel like we just clicked right away because we have such, so many of the same goals and so many of the same values.

    So I’m really, I’m very happy to be here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I’m too, I feel really blessed. Blessed that we got to meet in person in April at the We, the Change conference in Denver. And then in October you came to Portland for the BUILD Conference and it was exciting to see you there as well. So could you tell us all, what has your journey been to we, the change and now this new endeavor, the Buffalo Collective?

    Lindsay LaShell: Wow. Okay. Where do I start? I was a reluctant entrepreneur. I. Had, it’s so funny looking back like many times, actually started businesses a little bit out of necessity. I was tutoring when I was in grad school. I had like a farmer’s market business. For some time selling cotton reusable.

    It was like right when Swiffers were like brand new and very popular. And so I like, I sold washable, cotton that we had knitted, we had a knitting machine and we like knitted us. So anyway, so like I was dabbling in entrepreneurship all the way. As for as long as I can remember.

    And then when I started my agency, of course I didn’t. Know what I didn’t know. But I knew right away that part of what I wanted from that business was to use it as a vehicle for good. So I wanted to be able to pick my clients so that I knew that when their marketing was successful, it was putting more of what I want to see out into the world.

    It was always a very ethical, inclusive, thoughtful, progressive place to work. Like all those values were really important to me and so. I started to l learn about triple bottom line businesses and all these different, I was in California at the time, so it was all the different formats of what it looks like to be business for good.

    And of course, I had been familiar with B Corp community and getting B Corp certified the first time was just for us, it was just. Proving that we were, who we said we were, right? I didn’t have to change any policies. I didn’t have to update anything. It was just like some stuff we had to write down because it wasn’t formalized, but it was just this, it was very easy for us.

    ’cause we were already, and also because we were a service business. So it was pretty straightforward from a, accountability context. Yes. Yes. But that immediately got me introduced through somebody who’s still a very, very dear friend, Maya Holiday who’s also the B Corp and a we, the change member.

    And she brought me to the we the change session at the first champions retreat that I attended in LA after we got certified. And that was it. And I was like, oh, these are my people. Okay, cool. And so I just immediately started to like, attend every meeting. And as the organization evolved, then it became pretty clear that I was like, I wanted to be a volunteer.

    So I started to volunteer and then I got asked to be in the leadership circle and it’s right. It’s been a wonderful community to me for, I don’t see a lot of. Lines between friends and clients anymore. It’s one of the real, like amazing benefits of being what I call an integrated leader, right?

    We need to be your whole self at work. Then friends and clients can be the same. There’s no, no downside to that. So, yeah, those are people. It feels really good. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is fantastic. Yeah. And this new venture, the Buffalo Collective, what’s, 

    Lindsay LaShell: yeah, it’s wild. It’s still very, very new. I’ll tell you about the name first, because you were there when it started.

    While we were in. Colorado for that retreat. The woman who came to do our land acknowledgement told us a story about Buffalo women in her culture and how Buffalo women were the women that were, they did what Buffalo did, which is that they were the bold ones that ran into the storm.

    That’s, they were like strong enough and confident enough that that was the characteristic of these women who were just bold leaders, bold problem solvers in her community. And that stayed with me. And I even have this little stuffed buffalo that came that was a gift from somebody else who was at the thing that weekend.

    ’cause we really bonded over that story. And so when I was looking for inspiration for the brand, for this new business. That’s what came, that’s what sort of presented itself because, so I did a bunch of Googling and learned about it and buffalo are really unique. Like American bison are these creatures.

    When they see a storm on the horizon, they will get into a group and they will run headlong into the storm together and it’s, it is a defense mechanism. It’s a safety. It’s a safety. Basically it, they know that the fastest way through that storm is straight through it. You can’t go around it, you cannot run it.

    Cows will run away. Buffalo right into it. And they know the safest way to get through it is together, because then you won’t get separated. You won’t get lost. You use it’s the herd mentality is literally the thing that protects them. And that became the image, like I’m reclaiming herd mentality.

    This business is built on the idea that humans need connection. We need reflection, and we need accountability. Those are the things that help us to be our best selves. We can do a lot of work with a coach or a therapist. We can do a lot of work on our own and self-help, books and podcasts, whatever, but there are some deeper level things that need deeper support.

    And I like experienced that for myself. And so I’m just building the business that I want to exist. So that’s it. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is so fantastic. And what are some of those things? Because it sounds, it feels very new and different and yet there’s like a deep residence that probably through history has been something that’s been lacking.

    So how do you describe how you envision it? 

    Lindsay LaShell: So

    I think I call it the communities of integration because what I envision is that it is a small group of individuals. The communities are like the herds, right? Our eight people max, and it’s a like sort of. Bring your own framework. Bring your own identity. So folks who sign up for a herd. They tell us who they are.

    Okay? And that is, if you like, bring me your Astro chart, if that’s how you understand yourself, bring that, bring your Enneagram, bring your Myers-Briggs, like whatever it is that helps you get a clearer picture of who you are. Bring that, and then bring your goals. Where do you wanna be? Who do you wanna be?

    What do you wanna learn? Where do you wanna go? Whatever. And then through, there’s like digital systems of accountability, right? So we’re in like, there’s a Slack community where we, if you want daily accountability for like, here, I’m doing this today. I’ll tell you guys when it’s. Done. Like that, so we can get out of our own heads and just get it done.

    So there’s like those kinds of cheerleading, right? I need help. Does anybody have an accountant? Like whatever. So the Slack community’s always on for that. And then on a weekly basis, we’re having things like virtual coworking spaces. It’s such a bizarre thing how our brains. We can talk ourselves out of doing things like, oh, I’m too busy, or I don’t feel like it, or, oh, it’s not whatever.

    But if I just show up and turn on my camera and tell people like, for the next 90 minutes I’m working on this, I’m gonna do it. It’s like a, it’s so bizarre that that’s how our brains work, but we really do. And there’s, I like know a whole bunch of coaches who do offer virtual coworking sessions.

    And again, this came out of like conversations I’m having with my peers who are also, B Corp leaders. And it was just like, I just wanna not do this alone all the time. And so then that makes so much sense. The right and so then there’s the real work gets done in the meetings, right?

    So once a month, four hour block of time, chunk of time where with only eight people, that’s a lot of space for everyone to take. And the idea is again, that it’s just like you bring your identity and you bring your goals, and you bring your questions and you have the wisdom of the other individuals in the group.

    You have their guidance, you have their support, and you have their accountability. So that like at some point, I mean it’s funny, like my vision for this is I really think there’s potential for new models of business finance and business investing because when you can imagine. That group working together.

    Every entrepreneur thinks that they don’t, that they need marketing or money. That’s what every single entrepreneur will tell you, but that’s not the case. Most of us need some perspective and some accountability. Interesting. Because we’re not doing what we could. What we can’t. This is where the whole business was born from, was for me because as a marketing consultant.

    We had a, I had always had a saying back, even when I had an agency, you can lead a client to water. And that was just always true. And the more that I worked with women leaders and with underestimated entrepreneurs, the more that it became clear. It was like not, knowledge is not the thing that’s holding us back.

    A lack of knowledge is not the thing that’s holding us back. We have all these subconscious blocks. I’ll speak for myself, right? I was so programmed to believe that asking for attention, that speaking up and speaking out, that being ambitious. It was unlikable. It was unattractive. It was undesirable.

    Don’t ever do it. And I was in my thirties when I started, or in my forties when I took the Gallup strengths finder. And it was like, significance is my number two strength. Yeah, I want your attention. I’m here. And then obviously, I mean, maybe it’s not obvious, but I’m a Leo and I spent my whole life trying to pretend like I didn’t want.

    To be in front of the room when I do. And so I think there’s all, I’m not the only person who’s in this world of trying to perform what culture and what our families have taught us to be against who we really feel like we are. And then you add my, like neurodivergence, all these other things into it, like it just gets real crazy, real fast.

    And it’s. You need humans. You need other people that you can trust to reflect the truth back to you. That’s what I need is like somebody who could say, yes, you’re being crazy, or No, you’re not being crazy. Or here’s how I dealt with it and here’s what my outcome was. Right? Our brains haven’t evolved in like.

    10,000 years. A hundred thousand years. Something wild. When you think about the amount of time that we spend isolated, especially women leaders compared to what our bodies and brains and like emotional regulation systems are built for. We’re doing it wrong. We just need other people. And I think I just, I see.

    I see that need in my friends. I just, I’m gonna write a newsletter about this. There’s a New York Times article about these women who started group it, like they just call it group. And it was like a half a dozen moms in like the seventies or maybe eighties. Started to meet twice a month with a therapist as like group therapy for moms.

    It was all about trying to be like good moms and good people and good spouses and whatever. Twice a month for 44 years, these women have been meeting together. Can you imagine what they have been able to give to each other in terms of support and encouragement and knowledge and validation and like that just sounds beautiful.

    I don’t believe in organized religion. I think church structures can do this for some people. Honestly, I think 12 step programs do this for a lot of people, but I kind of want to build like a small group for the rest of us,

    and there’s such beauty there. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: You and I are both entrepreneurs. We know a lot of entrepreneurs and there’s always the work. Yeah. And the work sometimes never gets completely done. Yeah. It’s a striving and also stress and joy. Yeah. And what you said about connecting and communicating, I think there’s really something magical there to be able to share.

    Otherwise, we’re very insular. And I know I work from home, so there’s really nobody to have chats with. And sometimes I borrow in so much I feel like I don’t have time for it anyway. And until it happens and

    Lindsay LaShell: We lose sight of how important it is. We’re not, it’s not available to us, it’s not handed to us.

    If it were built into a structure. A lot of us really benefit, I mean whatever you’ve got your like book club or like all these other things, right? But I think especially women, you tell me if this is different for you, but like I think women entrepreneurs, part of why we do this is because we are very capable and part of why we do this is because we feel like we have to prove that we’re very capable. And both of those things together serve to further isolate us. Like there’s just , we don’t do things for ourselves. We hire coaches for our business or consultants for our business, but it’s just wild to me that this is such a deep seated human need and there are so few people walking around talking about why they don’t have it.

    Or trying to solve the problem of having it, like they solve the problem with a couple glasses of wine or they saw it, right? Or like some other mechanism that isn’t really, really, really what we need. And yeah. I just, I think it’s wild. How we have been conditioned, this is not what humans are supposed to be 

    And in isolation and showing up with

    with the work. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So how, and have you experienced good opportunities for you to engage, with the way you wanna build the Buffalo Collective. Have there been sparks of inspiration? 

    Lindsay LaShell: Oh, so many. This is the, it’s taken me a long time to really narrow in on it. I’ve thought I’ve been like zigging and zagging and exploring.

    For, I don’t know, I would say two or three years ago was the first sort of seed of this idea. And the seed was was actually around, this is, it’s gonna sound far field. It’s not I promise, but like it was actually around the potential for supporting. Home use of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes.

    I was like, why isn’t there a DIY guide for a couple that wants to, that has some hard conversations they need to have and if they do that supported with MDMA, then it becomes these are. Clinically, all these things are being tested, but they’re all pretty much clear, right? Like I’ve, and so I was like, why doesn’t that exist?

    And then it led down this rabbit hole for me, where in my own experience and in that of my peers, I just get really fired up about professionalism and how what, like, how messed up it is. That’s not usually the word I use, but it’s ruins us. And so that, so I, that really just I following the thread and trying to figure out like where, what do we need?

    Where’s the healing? Where’s the opportunity? Where do I think I can build a business that serves the future of who we are? That’s part of it for me also is just that this is a need today. It’s been a need for many, many, many, many, many, many, many hundreds of years in, in our cultures, every maybe not hundreds since the invention of the atomic family, right?

    This has absolutely just been like brewing since then, and I. I don’t know. It just led me to this place of, I think the most precious thing that we can be working towards is integration. Just this idea of who we are is who we are, and we can fully accept who we are, and we can’t expect the people around us to fully expect who we are or to fully accept who we are.

    And then there’s no. Professionalism. There’s no pretending to be a certain way when you’re not. There’s no, the downside of professionalism, if you’re a like solopreneur or a leader of a small business is. You have all this baggage, all this subconscious, like every human does.

    There’s no judgment. We all do. You bring that crap to work except for you pretend like you don’t because you’re acting like prof, like a professional. And so the same person who is not balancing their checkbook is then showing up and managing their business finances and thinking that those are two different.

    Pathways for them, where it’s really not an integrated leader is like, no, this is, I have money baggage and this is how it shows up in my business. And that is how we get the freedom to work through it and move past it. So that’s why I focused on that. The entrepreneurship is a, it’s the playground, but it’s not.

    The requirement, right? This is like being an integrated human is available to all of us, and I want it for everybody. But because I’m building a business, it starts with entrepreneurs. That’s where my community is. That’s where my audience is. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that makes sense. And I think you’ve touched on so many things that are important and what’s been going through my mind thinking about it is like corporate life and burnout, and what does burnout mean?

    And often it’s, I was talking with someone else about having to go to work and in a way put on a mask and be professional. . And bury the other things on the, on someone’s mind. And when you do that long enough and the stress buildup is, becomes very physical. Very neurological.

    I’ve also been burnt out to the. Point where I went on a vacation and sat on a balcony of a hotel for two and a half days to the point where the hotel actually called me and said, are you okay? Because all I did was order room service, didn’t even read a book or anything. It was just like time to, to let the brain decouple a little bit.

    Yeah. And I’m a reader. I’m activist. I usually get out and start exploring right away. But that particular one, and I’ve heard this from other people as well, and. Particularly with women and women of color who are also masking even more. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: To get to a place. And I read a book about a woman who made it to CEO and when she got there, she thought she could create a gateway for other people it was more free and open, but like the board and others expectations of assimilation.

    Made it even more difficult to the point of physical illness for her, and I do see. I think CEO groups that get together so people of the same level can sit and chat and in Portland through Be local. There’s a grassroots group that I’m a new member of. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. Those CEO circles absolutely informed.

    I talked to a lot of people about those that definitely informed some of what I’ve planned here. Yeah. Sorry. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s, it is starting. It is. And. And also being, taking longer time, maybe not as frequent, but longer time. So that people aren’t just going around and expressing what might be their need of the day.

    But it’s shallow. Across everybody. And the groups are learning to say, let’s focus on one person’s issue today, but it’s confidential and everybody listens deep. And gives that person a chance because sometimes we don’t even know unless there’s a question or even a comment. Like, oh, tell us more in a safe space.

    And that’s what I see you bringing to it and I. And I’m just wondering if you could tell us more in the design or how you envision this happening for people where it’s unpeeling layers and they wanna come back And reveal more. Learn more. Heal more. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: How would that look? 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah, I think so. It, along the way, like I said, I’ve been digging and zagging and exploring a lot, and somewhere along the way I started to collect these sort of rules of engagement, if you will, right? I have they’re on my bulletin board here, like the like indigenous like very, very traditional laws of nature, right?

    And it’s like cause and effect and relativity and like these ideas that are like, you can observe them everywhere. And if you. Employ them, embody them, they can, help how you think about things. And then I got the economic regeneration, whatever, eight laws of economics.

    So I’m like putting all these like guides together. And I wrote one and it was like the. Ways that I strive to be part of them are ways that are very easy for me to be, and part of them are ways that are very hard for me to be, but there are things that I have observed are maybe unique or remarkable.

    The thing that your therapist says too is like, whoa, that’s unusual. Right? Cool. Like, hold onto that and I wrote these down, wasn’t really sure why or what role they were gonna play, and then I realized that there actually are community guidelines. So I’ll grab a couple of ’em for you so you know what I’m talking about, like the very first one, kindness, directness, and authenticity, right?

    Because anything that you accomplish by pretending, hiding, or forcing will not satisfy. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes 

    Lindsay LaShell: sense. Number two, and this is very consistent with what you already know about me. Give generously, ask boldly, receive graciously. Because if you want full participation in regenerative abundance, you have to give and take both in equal measure.

    And that’s we have to name that because so many of us are conditioned to give more than we take no matter what. And so that, it goes on, there’s a whole bunch more of ’em. But it occurs to me that these are the touchstones of we’re not always going to accomplish this.

    We’re not always gonna be able to do this, but these are the guidelines that we can strive for and that we can hold ourselves to. That we can say, okay, this is the, these are the way that I wanna show up in the world. So with those in hand. Every person having the encouragement and support and internal motivation to go where they wanna go.

    I think that’s all we need. I really do. I’m like so deeply, I believe that the people who see these community guidelines and resonate with them and they’re like, I wanna be challenged in that way. Those are the people who are gonna sign up. And the thing about being a buffalo is you have to be ready to do the hard thing.

    You have you gotta sometimes it’s gonna be listening to the hard thing. Sometimes it’s gonna be saying the hard thing. We’re all on the same page with that together. But it’s not for everybody. And it is not for some people right now, it’s not for like it’s okay because it’s not a support group.

    It’s not, and it’s not a coach, it’s not a class. We are here for people who know that they have work to do, and they know that they will be able to do it stronger, better, smarter, faster, more pleasantly if they have a team rooting for them while they do. That’s really, that’s the crux of it, is.

    Isolation is our enemy, the echo chamber of our brains that don’t have perspective and can’t give yourself grace and can’t give yourself the validation that you need. All of that stuff. Isolation is the enemy. And so that’s why hurts. That’s why our small groups 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: well and there it is.

    And yet I think many of us don’t always acknowledge what you just said that. Sometimes we sit back and say, okay, during a storm, I just have to weather through it by myself. Or like some people do run 

    And I love the metaphor of the group head down, forcing through. And that breaks open something good because the rainbows on the other end.

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And then how do you envision it with a group that’s working like that and they. Breakthrough the other edge of the storm together. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: There could be other storms coming, but what else? Of course. Yeah. Wonderful things can be on the rainbow side of it. 

    Lindsay LaShell: It is my hope that people will come and go in the seasons.

    When they need this, right? The other offering, right? We have these heard small groups. We’re also gonna offer psychedelic retreat, like weekend retreats. And the idea is that if you’re like participating in one of those, then you join a herd with other folks who are at that retreat, and then that is what supports you through the like post psychedelic integration process, right?

    So like that is hopefully gonna be the mechanism that starts to get, ’cause we can offer that integration for psychedelic retreat facilitators all over. That’s the thing is that right now in the very best. Most well-respected programs for certification and training for psychedelic for psychedelic facilitation.

    They want you to provide resources for your clients to get integration, which is for most folks, that’s one conversation and like a bunch of links or a bibliography or something. It’s not, there’s very few facilitators that are building communities of practice around actual ongoing integration and like investing time and space in it.

    And so that’s the future that I see for this is that like we are gonna. I don’t, there’s all kinds of things from a business perspective, there’s all kinds of things. I don’t know. Like I, what is our lifetime customer val value? I have no idea. Because how long are people gonna be in groups?

    I don’t know. I love the idea that like this group that’s forming now for January, maybe we are around in 30 years, like maybe it has that value and we have that stability and that’s how that goes. But the. The vision, like what I’m imagining is folks, some facilitators will bring their clients and use our structure, right?

    They can use all of our technology and frameworks and tools. Some folks are gonna come to our. Retreats and then they’ll work with our facilitator. And it’s really similar to the CEO circles that what I was, what I’m planning is folks who come on with a facilitator, with a facilitating group.

    The facilitator will be with them for six months. So it’s a long enough to establish relationships, communication standards, culture, expectations. And then the group can carry itself from there. Partly because I want the price point to be really accessible and obviously if there’s a staff facilitator, it changes the price point quite a lot.

    Sure. But also because I’m not. I’m not offering wisdom. That’s not what this business does. The point of Buffalo Connected Collective is just to provide connection. It’s just get, I, everybody knows where they need to go. That’s not my job. I just wanna give people the retainer that they need to get the support in order to go where they want to go.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What a gift. I think that just sounds so fantastic. Thank you. 

    And i’m sure people will be curious about the psychedelic component. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah.

    I’ll pitch it because it’s actually I very strategically have scheduled the very first one, so it’s gonna be just right outside Milwaukee, the weekend before the champions retreat.

    So if anybody is planning to travel to Milwaukee for the B Corp Champions retreat in April of 2026, the weekend before, they can come in the weekend before and do this retreat with us, and then go to the Champions retreat. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is a fascinating idea. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Thank you. I’m really excited. I love the B Corp community.

    I, I, and I’m very lucky to be connected to lots of folks in the B Corp community and beyond, who are really. Really, really, really wonderful, experienced, empathetic practitioners of this kinds of facilitation. And, for me it’s just, it’s that it’s like jumping the next level, right?

    For women entrepreneurs, for every human, but for like women entrepreneurs, it feels especially cute, the power of our subconscious and our conditioning. We don’t even realize the things that we tell ourselves and the way that we hold ourselves back. You just, you don’t even know because you’ve been told one thing, right?

    And you push forward in that paradigm because that’s the guidance that you have and. I think what psychedelics can do in terms of allowing for self-acceptance and self-actualization. ’cause you can actually see a different vision of how you fit into the world and your role in it. Yeah, I think the power and potential for that is really endless.

    And I, I think, from a business perspective, our mental health care system is not sufficient. It’s not going to be sufficient. It can’t catch up fast enough to the need. And psychedelics offer a real solution to that, but they. Can’t do it with the work on their own. Their medicine.

    They still need people to participate in their own healing. And that’s, what I hope Buffalo Collective can provide. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And there is, more information like Michael Pollan’s book of a couple years ago. Yeah. More books are coming out it seems oh yeah. A lot of it is about trauma.

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And you’re talking about a different look at it. And some of it can be. Trauma of within a business that may not be breaking through or doing what people anticipate or just the stress of holding onto everything with no support system. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And to offer something that is about making a living as well.

    Yeah. And how to really consider opening that up. I. I would love to have you back for a podcast in after the Champions retreat. And yeah, if there’s some feedback on what that’s like, because it’s really Yeah, opening up new ways to look at business and life and leadership integral and leadership and yeah.

    And it’s a choice as well. And what do you say to people who are hesitant about psychedelics? Haven’t tried or don’t know? What to expect or how it helps. 

    Lindsay LaShell: So I am the only one. The only medicine that I am really a passionate, outspoken advocate for is psilocybin, and part of that is. Because it’s like deep cultural history in North America where I’m from, right?

    So like for part of it is because that is from here as I am from here. Part of it is because it is so safe. You literally cannot overdose on mushrooms. You cannot hurt yourself. The worst thing that happens is you have a bad trip. You may become deter, have to face some things that you don’t wanna face.

    It’s not. Always pleasant, but it’s never dangerous. And for those two reasons, this stuff is getting mainstreamed real fast, like there’s a, I don’t, there’s a community called Moms on Mushrooms. The woman who founded that community’s been on Good Morning America, and it’s all, it’s a microdosing community for moms.

    So they didn’t belong in. Like they’re not schedule one drugs, like they don’t belong in that category. They were, and we don’t need to like get into the politics of it. But like the whole thing has been politicized in a way that has caused our culture to be really confused and scared.

    And. When you start to do just a little bit of research, you see that this is medicine that arguably created human consciousness, right? There’s like a real strong argument that it was psilocybin mushrooms that actually sparked the evolution that led to humans in the animals in the apes or whatever that consume them the first time.

    And the benefits. For trauma healing, for self-acceptance, all that stuff. Yes. But even just as on a microdosing level, they provide benefits like reduced anxiety and stress, which means reduced blood pressure and hypertension. And so there’s like all of these ways in which I think they are a, an absolute necessary part.

    For the next phase of our human health, of the, of our human existence right now, we need them as coping mechanisms as teachers. They do those things, but I think they’re, they are gonna help us even beyond that. And so if I don’t wanna push it on anybody if you’re scared, but I’ll say the if you have gotten to a point where.

    Your SSRIs, your therapist, and this is in your business or in your, yourself, right? If you’ve hit the wall, you’re, you can’t you’re not making any more progress with your therapist. You’re not making any more, your SSRIs aren’t doing enough, whatever it is. If you’ve hit the space where you don’t know what else to try, there’s really no downside to trying these medicines because they’re completely safe.

    Yeah. And you can get them legally all over the place, even though technically they’re illegal. So 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: true. Oh, and I live in the other Pacific Northwest where there are clinics and, but they’re actually legal and therapists and Yeah. And that is in the news and it’s people are writing newsletters about their companies, so 

    Lindsay LaShell: Oh yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: There’s definitely more to learn. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. The. But like business startup stuff that’s happening around it is huge, but it’s also just lots of really wonderful growth and education, right? And studies. So many clinical studies are showing the benefits. And I’m far from the expert to talk about this, like for PTSD for addiction, right? For substance for substance abuse. Like it’s really. Really quite compelling. So yeah, so that’s all I would say is just know that it’s safe and keep an open mind and make sure you’ve got, make sure you got some people. Don’t do it alone, that’s all. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And what else is on the horizon for you?

    The Buffalo Collective is just brand new. It

    Lindsay LaShell: is, yeah. Our first two herds, so I’m launching the first two herds in January. Very, very, very excited. And then our first retreat will be in April. As I said, and that’s in Wisconsin so that we can, piggyback on the Champions retreat.

    And then, the world we’ll see, like I, my intention is to build this really targeting entrepreneurs to start with since, those are my people and I really get them. The idea is that year two we’ll do probably. I think if we do three retreats next year, we’ll do maybe twice that many in the following year.

    And then, as I said, like our goal by year three is that we have partnerships and relationships with psychedelic practitioners of all kinds who, who recognize our community as the recommended community of integration for the group, for their work. Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And on a personal level what are your values that are leading you to create this and how do you envision this affecting you as well?

    Lindsay LaShell: Oh God. At this point, I’ll be honest. Like at this point I just want to, I wanna be financially stable like I’ve been, I’m like, I’ve been a marketing consultant for the last five years and that. Been rough for the last three. And so I. I love, like part of how I got here, right? My, I am a Scorpio moon, which means I have all the feelings and they’re complicated and they’re messy and they’re huge.

    And that’s the Scorpio. I’m Sagittarius Rising, which means I’m really adventurous and I’m gonna try everything that’s. Offered to me, like I’m gonna go, explore everything. But I’m a Leo sun, which to me is like the, that I’m here to talk about it. I’m here to tell you about those things.

    And so I’m really excited if this business gives me the opportunity to tell more of my healing stories, more of how I got to. Realize these things and learn these things and evolve from those things. If that is what I’m here to do, then I am just really excited for that opportunity to do it and I’m, and I love.

    That this journey for me has been so much about knowing what I’m for and knowing what I’m not for, right? I’m not a facilitator. That is not my strength, and I can’t wait to bring on other skilled, passionate values, aligned, progressive people to do that, right? Because I just wanna tell everybody about these opportunities for healing and connection.

    That’s really what I wanna do. I wanna make it for myself. I wanna make it for others. And then. I just wanna, I’m an activator, that’s another one of my Gallup strengths, right? Is getting, and you’re like, I recognize that. Like I know that about you. Yeah, exactly. And and that’s just so whatever, like the greatest gift you can give yourself if you’re an entrepreneur is to set yourself up to spend all of your time in your zone of genius, right?

    Getting other people on board is my zone of genius.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And you’re good at it, and thank you. And that’s how hopefully others like me can help as well. I, my tagline for me and my company is Connector, collaborator. Catalyst. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s like I love to connect people. I love to collaborate, but a catalyst is like an enzyme.

    Lindsay LaShell: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that’s like introducing two things and getting out of the way and stepping back to let that. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. And like Catalyst happen to create something new, right? I love it. That’s great. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And hopefully the word will spread and the people that go through the first two herds will also be the ones that are talking to other people who.

    Create more herds. You and I both seem to be people of metaphor. My company was named off basically after a metaphor based in nature and the buffalo herds that it’s always gonna stick with me. That together we can make it through a storm. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and I think that’s particularly relevant now and I am seeing some real optimistic things happen.

    There’s another person who. Wants to create a company based on finding ways to work with the activists, the people that are on the front lines. The very wonderful people who are speaking up.

    But there is always a, price to pay for giving too much. Especially giving too much in stress. And this person wants to create a place for those people to step back, relax in their way. And it’s like sharpening the ax. It’s a metaphor, but also a story that I used to tell when I was a manager is that there’s.

    Two people and they have an ax and they’re cutting trees and one of them just keeps cutting and cutting and the other one takes a break. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And in the end, the person who took the break cuts more trees. Why is that? Because during the break he sharpened his ax. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And so I think what you’re giving people is a chance to sharpen the ax.

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And like the other woman who’s not gonna be working with business people so much, but with nonprofit people, activists, legislators, judges, attorneys, people who are pushing forward a chance to step back and sharpen the ax. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I see this. For you and the people that are in your herds as well.

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. Thank you. I hope so. I, this is, it’s it feels to me very much like a the right people are gonna raise their hand.

    And because they are the right people, when they raise their hand, they are gonna get what they need from this. That’s, that there’s a very I’m just, it’s like if you put a pond in your backyard if some ducks need a place to chill, they’ll show up there, right? And so that’s, but there weren’t ducks sitting on your front porch waiting for your pond, so that, so exactly. Yeah, that’s how I’m thinking about it. It’s feels crazy ’cause I spent my whole career being like.

    The internet is not a, if you build it, they will come situation. That’s not the way marketing works, but I think that is how this works. We’ll see. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Me too. So could you remind everyone of the website and how to reach you? 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah, so it’s BuffaloCollective.co definitely please go sign up and subscribe.

    I’ve kept it once a week. Newsletter. I’m gonna keep doing that. That’s my work to do. So what makes that hard for me? ’cause it’s not, and I’m on LinkedIn, Lindsay Lashelle. That’s the easiest way you get to hear all of my ranting about my internal critic and all my criticisms of our current work environment and entrepreneurship expectations and all that kind of crap.

    But yeah, like I said, I’m, I realized a long time ago that. I have, for whatever reason, I can say things that other people can’t say in a way that doesn’t cost. I don’t have the same social capital at stake that other people have. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I see. Interesting. 

    Lindsay LaShell: So the reasons why people don’t speak up when they see something, when they have a problem.

    The reason why people don’t speak up when something’s been wrong for them, when the, whatever those are, it’s very little risk for me to say those things. And so I have to say them because somebody has to say them because that’s the only way we can learn and grow and people feel seen and right, all of the reasons why, right?

    Those hard things need to be said. I get to say them. So that’s what happens on LinkedIn. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s great. And that’s also breaking through, running through storms, getting, breaking things apart. It can be I love that. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    I just wanna make it easier if I go first than other people can.

    That’s, I just wanna make it easier for others to do that too. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it makes a difference. And we’re seeing that in the world too. Those who speak and those who don’t. And knowing how to get ahold of you will be very important. So everyone I do hope you go to the website in LinkedIn and connect.

    Before we break off, I have one more question. That I wanna ask every podcast guest. And that is if you could have dinner with one to three other people, so you have up to a table of four. 

    Lindsay LaShell: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Living or dead.

    Who would you choose and why?

    Lindsay LaShell: That’s a really good question. Three people. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Up to you. You could start with, you could have dinner for two, three or four. Just more than four.

    Lindsay LaShell: I don’t want a one-on-one. I want like conversation.

    I’ve gotten recently a lot of ideas about.

    You know how like God always used to talk to people in the Old Testament, and then at some point he stopped talking to people. There’s a lot of historians now that are making good arguments that like that was psychedelics. The people that were talking to God were actually having psychedelic experiences.

    You can get there without lSD like there’s lots of other ways to do that. Psilocybin, mushrooms being one of it, but there’s lots that like, don’t even require medicine, right? Breath work and stuff like that, that can get you into a non-ordinary state. It’s really bizarre, but like that, like I think of I wanna talk to like Rachel or Moses or one of these, like an Old Testament.

    Maybe it’s Queen Esther. Like an Old Testament prophet to understand that experience for them or, I could say like Ram Doss, like somebody who’s a, he’s a, he was, he’s a spiritual teacher now. He was a psychedelic researcher right in the seventies alongside Timothy Leary and some other crazy people.

    Yeah, I feel like those folks, maybe even like a, like an Einstein sort of character. ’cause he was like the . Humans that were not bounded, that were thinking in ways that were not bounded by the time and place where they were. And I. Those are the ones that I wanna talk to. And, I don’t want to just talk to them. I wanna sit and listen to them, talk to each other.

    Yes. So it’s definitely three of ’em. And those are some rough ideas, but Yeah, that’s kinda, that’s how I think like a cross section of folks who are exploring boundaries a little bit. That’s what I would want. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. Indeed. I so appreciate you. I thank you everyone listening.

    Thank you. And we always wish you the best. We’re here to help.

    Lindsay LaShell: Thank you so much, Kim.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Lindsay LaShell

    Lindsay LaShell smiling at the camera.

    Lindsay LaShell is the Founder and Lead Navigator for Buffalo Collective, a community of integration that gives lone leaders and solopreneurs the support, structure, and connection that they need to thrive. She’s an experienced digital strategist and purpose-driven founder, with a deep belief in the power of entrepreneurship as a path to wealth, justice, and self-actualization.

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