Tag: Small Business & Solopreneurs

Practical guidance for small business owners and solopreneurs working to build values-driven, certification-ready companies without a large team or budget.

  • Strengthening Portland’s Socioeconomic Fabric: Strategy, and Community with Anja Taylor of Kinesis

    Strengthening Portland’s Socioeconomic Fabric: Strategy, and Community with Anja Taylor of Kinesis

    Anja Taylor, president of Kinesis, joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about her journey from international studies and work in Berlin to focusing on local community impact through owner-operated businesses. Taylor explains Kinesis’s long-term approach to helping companies thrive through strategy, creativity, leadership development, employee engagement, and relationship-based marketing, often partnering with clients for years and building peer networks to reduce owner isolation. She critiques an overemphasis on optimization and “growth for growth’s sake,” describing strategy as a theory of winning tested through assumptions and experiments anchored by mission, values, and vision. The conversation covers Portland’s fragmented efforts, the role of local businesses in community resilience, lessons from and beyond B Corp certification, and optimism drawn from values-driven leaders and initiatives like Albina Vision Trust. 

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    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Intro

    00:54 Anja Journey and Purpose

    03:00 Local Business Fabric

    05:02 How Kinesis Helps Owners

    07:39 Long Term Partnership Model

    10:35 Community Building for Owners

    13:45 Beyond Optimization to Purpose

    16:11 Strategy as a Theory

    18:54 Winning in Uncertainty

    19:40 Businesses as Community Anchors

    21:02 Purpose And Mastery

    21:44 Beyond B Corp Labels

    22:54 Building Local Fabric

    23:56 Business As Partner

    25:18 Inclusive Community Shift

    27:49 Innovation From Within

    30:07 Breaking Silos Together

    33:02 Challenges And Vision

    34:37 Albina Vision Example

    36:39 What Makes Us Optimistic

    39:02 Connect And Get Involved

    40:07 Dinner Guest Reflections

    41:53 Closing Thanks And Farewell

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast and I’m delighted to be here with Anja Taylor as president of Kinesis. Anja Taylor combines her leadership and operational experience with her passion for building thriving teams and businesses. Since joining Kinesis as director of Operations in 2017, Anja has played a role, a pivotal role in shaping the company’s approach to growth and collaboration.

    Anja is a natural galvanizer, that’s a word that I really love. Her passion for building strong cultures that foster employee engagement, fueling small business success, makes her an engaging speaker and trusted advisor to many business owners. Today we’re gonna talk about Kinesis local business and the importance of socioeconomic fabric an you welcome.

    Anja Taylor: Yeah. Thank you so much, Kim. I’m very excited to be here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I’m excited as well. What has been your journey and the inspirations that have led you to this point? 

    Anja Taylor: Yeah, it’s, that’s such a good question. I love that. A lot of times I feel like our journeys only make sense in retrospect. We don’t necessarily set out on a path that, has us end up where we are in this current moment.

    So that’s very much true for me. I came to the United States as an undergrad student in, oh, the late nineties. I was at Portland State. I got a bachelor’s in communication and then went on to get my master’s in international Policy studies. At the Monterey Institute of International Studies and I was really motivated by wanting to contribute to making the world a better place.

    And so I went from a very broad global perspective and studied that and was really motivated on that level. Worked in that field a little bit. After my master’s, I moved to Berlin and worked at the US Embassy there, but ultimately came back to Portland. And had my kids here. So that focus shifted a lot more into the local and community level and even the interpersonal level from that global perspective.

    But there’s a lot of skills that I still. Used today that are acquired during those times. And I am very fortunate that I have this global perspective and a little bit more broader input, I think, into my work today. So I very much benefit from that, and I still wanna make the world a better place. I think my aspirations are the same.

    I’m also much more of a realist these days. So for me, the question is really where can I have impact? And the number one. For me is really on a personal level. I think that’s why I am so passionate about employee engagement, about the interpersonal things. I recently got certified as a coach. I got a certification as a coach.

    And I am not that. I use that a lot. I use it in my work at Kinesis working with business owners. It’s just more of a skill building for me, but it’s really my motivation to help people get better at whatever they want to do. And I truly believe that for us at this juncture where we are strengthening local communities.

    Through local businesses is a really important part of getting into the next economy, whatever shape that might be, but really moving away from just looking at corporations or so entrepreneurs as viable options. This whole idea about building up a business, scaling it, and then selling it and that gets celebrated is something that’s very foreign to me.

    I really believe that businesses are part of. Like you said in the introduction, like the socioeconomic fabric. So I want to contribute to that and I wanna make my community better through that.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s so exciting to hear about. And I concur with you that some people are very content having a successful business and not scaling. ’cause there’s so much pressure and angst that can come with that as well. And I know that Oregon. Has, there’s something from Oregon Statistics that. Consumer goods are the engine of Oregon, and a lot of those consumer goods are small companies, and it’s the collective aspect.

    So the stronger those companies are, the better. Another thing I discovered in your opening is that we actually have some things in common. I’m also a PSU grad. I lived overseas, born in the us, but I lived overseas and I really see business even though they’re local, so many businesses still have overseas.

    Tentacles, overseas aspects for consumer goods often are manufacturing. There’s imports for supply, so that, but beyond that, there are other things as well. So it’s really great to talk to you. Mike. I graduated PSU with a Master’s of International Management, which no longer exists. Good.

    Now it’s in, now it’s an MBI, but it’s good to have this discussion about local can be global as well. There, there are touch points that matter. So what is your view of the community that you’re in and how does Kinesis serve problem solve? What are you learning from local? 

    Anja Taylor: Yeah, thank you. At Kinesis, we really focus on owner operated businesses, anywhere from a couple million dollars in revenue to like lower mid market companies, and we help the owners.

    Grow their businesses and that can mean many different ways. That doesn’t necessarily mean revenue growth or like scaling in which we typically understand that to be. It can be, I want my leadership team to function better. It can be I want my employees to have career paths so that they can actually thrive here.

    I want build a thriving company, and for me, that means that my employees are fulfilled here. Not only. In their economic needs, but also in their needs to grow and their needs to learn new things. Purpose, mastery, all those types of things are really important for, yeah, for the business owners that we work with.

    So at Kinesis, we do that work in many different ways. We’re first and foremost coming from a perspective of strategy and creativity. We help owners galvanize that. We help them identify where are we remarkable and. Amplifying that to their communities. So then with that we need to make sure that that’s true.

    Whatever we are saying is remarkable about them. So we help them shore that up, manifest that within their employees within their structures. I always think it’s three things. It’s the processes, it’s the tools you build, and then it’s the people part. And often the people part is.

    What people are struggling most with, what leaders are struggling most with, because it’s something that’s very un intangible. And so helping them, seeing the opportunities there, helping them craft better policies, helping them become better leaders, all of that as part of what we do, as well as marketing and the sense of, not digital marketing, but human to human marketing.

    So we’re helping companies build better connections, better networks, better referral partners. Talking to them about how can you bring something to your market that your customers see as valuable that nobody else does, and that is truly authentic to who you are. So those are really interesting conversations that come about because we’re tapping into.

    What the owner is passionate about, what they’re good at, what the company already has as strengths, and we helping them amplify that and we helping them building that into a system that really creates a flywheel and helps them grow. Now this is a process that takes two or three years. So we are long term horizon company and for the right client.

    It’s a magical relationship. We bring a lot of fun and creativity to our work, so they are excited to meet with us. We usually meet with them every week or every two weeks. So we get really close relationships with these owners and these leadership teams, and often end up on their org charts as a strategic partner.

    And that’s where we like to be. Often these engagements are six to seven years or even longer. So we have very, very strong longevity with our clients and they’re very proud of that and become really enmeshed in their business through the work that we do. And that’s very gratifying for us. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think it’s beautiful as well, the long term.

    It’s almost like a family relationship in the business sense that becoming a part Absolutely. Of that and not a cold type of consultant who comes in and looks at the charts and gives off a checklist and leaves and comes back. This is really 

    Anja Taylor: not at all 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: touch point. 

    Anja Taylor: We are. We are sitting in it with them and I think that’s the value that we provide.

    And usually people don’t buy that initially from us. But they really appreciate just us holding the space. Yeah. That every week they come. To our meeting, and that’s the place where they can think higher level. That’s the place where they can have honest conversations. That’s the place where there’s a thought partner that truly understands their business, but still has a lot of outside perspective and helps them crystallize, galvanize ideas, figure out, okay, let’s try this.

    We are big on, running experiments, so to speak. So really taking some bets, having some business innovation that we wanna act upon without. Risking too much. So we have a lot of experience because we work with so many clients on what works, what doesn’t work, what might we try here, what is a small experiment that we can draft that will give us something to learn from, but doesn’t take a lot of resources.

    So all of those things are incredibly, yeah. Fruitful in the relationship and our clients really appreciate our perspective. And then we also, we get down into the work with ’em. We have a team that then helps to, create, maybe it’s a job descriptions or recruiting program or it’s a leadership offsite that we facilitate, right?

    Whatever it might be, whatever the need is. We also do that work when we sit. In that with them. And we come to their companies and we roll out things and we help their employees get through it. So we are very, very much on the pulse of what’s going on, and I think that that is something that a lot of smaller businesses.

    In this kind of revenue range from, I don’t know, 3 million to maybe up to a hundred million, don’t really have, but when they experience it, they really appreciate it and they are willing to put resources, time, energy, money behind that because it’s so valuable to them. Because often they feel very isolated.

    And so I think for me. This is part of our community building. We do events for our clients. We bring them together. We introduce people to each other. We really wanna build a network where they can rely on their peers, on other business owners. I think a lot of times when you’re an entrepreneur, when you run a small business, it feels very isolating and it feels very much like you have a bunch of problems or challenges or things you need to do that you know other people have too.

    But you don’t even have. The opportunity to reach out in a, in an organized manner. You often don’t even know who to talk to. Sometimes our clients have like peer networks. But not on a regular basis where you can really choose, do something and look at something from different perspectives and really sit down and continuously work on something.

    And I think in this time where we have so much change and so much uncertainty and so many things that are constantly thrown at us, where we need to be nimble and react and position ourselves and our companies in a way that is, is. Yeah. Not just successful, but it’s also adaptive, right? It’s this mix between responding to what’s incoming, but also being firm in our values and our vision and our strategy to some extent, to really know what to say no to, what to act upon, where to pivot, where not to pivot.

    All of these things and a lot of times we don’t know, as business owners, we just have hunches, we have ideas, and we really need somebody to help us figure out what am I gonna do with this? Is this wild hair or is this something that we can try out over here and what would that look like?

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love this and things I’m hearing from you, purpose, mastery and galvanizing, remarkable, and you have so many action words, Kinesis, action word, but I’m also thinking that these are dynamic entities. That the companies are really something and people often go to work and are so embroiled in operations.

    And there’s so much work to do, and yet it’s so important to step back and realize the reasons why. And you have to focus on the good. But there’s also some other quotes that have come out of this podcast, like good business, strong business is a form of resistance, but also rest is a form of resistance.

    And it’s almost like what you’re giving people is a way to step back from the day-to-day operations to yeah, see how they function. Into the purpose, the process, the people, the human marketing network, all of that, and take a breath. To remind themselves of the bigger picture and why, which could be a form of resistance that also brings forward better work and better productivity and better joy in actually being though.

    ’cause work can be hard. 

    Anja Taylor: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: But when you know why and everybody’s seeing the why. Seeing responses to it that can be super galvanizing to use one of your words. 

    Anja Taylor: Yeah. You are so right. I think especially in the last 15, 20 years. The pervading knowledge about what it means to run a good business has been in the form of optimizing.

    You’re taking what you have and you’re making incremental improvements and you just chip away at it. And I think a lot of people who lead businesses now are focusing on only that. Optimizing, optimizing, optimizing. How do I make this better? How do I create a process around this? How do I gain efficiencies?

    What’s like productivity? All of that becomes. The benchmark, the goal that everything is serving, and I think that is really, really dangerous. We see this in the realm of strategy. A lot of business owners think they have a strategy, and when we talk to them about their strategy is essentially a plan they have.

    Well, I have my yearly plan and here the activities that I’m doing. And when we ask the why question, why are you doing this? Well, because we want to grow. We wanna grow to this number. Okay. That’s interesting. Why? Why do you wanna grow to that number? Silence, right? It’s usually I don’t know, like I’m, I just wanna get bigger because bigger is better.

    Like that idea. And I know you, you mentioned this before, I think now we’re seeing people who are more aware and saying, I don’t necessarily want to grow. There’s often. It’s like this panacea of everything and thinking that, if we just get over the hump and over the hump, right?

    This kind of culture where we constantly are thriving towards the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, and we’re optimizing our way there, we lose sight of the overall picture. And so what we do is pulling people out of that on a regular basis. To provide them the overall view, to your point, what is our purpose here?

    What are we really trying to do? So I think that is a very fundamental question that get ans that gets answered in your mission, that gets answered in your values, and that also gets answered in the vision, like the vision of the painted picture. Where do you wanna take this? Where is this gonna be in five years?

    In a way that’s not only satisfactory to you as the owner, but also. To your employees and to the community as a whole, what is the impact you’re making? So I think those questions are just so important. And we don’t need to spend endless hours on that, but we need to really articulate it and we need to touch base with that once in a while to see is this still where we want to go?

    And the other part I would say that people often get wrong about strategy, that’s not a plan strategy is your theory of how are we getting there? Your theory of how are we going to realize our vision now? It’s a theory. It’s not, oh, we are gonna get better by 10% at what we are already doing. No.

    It’s something where you take a bet on your market, on your customers, maybe on your employees, maybe on making the world a better place. And you’re saying, this is the idea that we have. Here’s the theory. If this is our theory for winning at this thing that we wanna win at, and that can be whatever it might be that’s in your vision, and that is really lies with the owner of what they wanna accomplish, the legacy they wanna leave.

    And so that theory becomes something that you need to figure out how to make real and how to prove or disprove. So with that, you wanna have certain assumptions. About yourself, about your capabilities, about your employees, about the market, all of those things. And then you test those assumptions and that then gives you action items and gives you a plan to work from every year.

    But that plan is a function of that theory of winning. That is a hypothesis. So I think I find that incredibly fascinating because it gets into the realm of aspiration and unknowing and is not in optimization and. Incremental improvements here and there that you know, get us 10% better because of that.

    We gonna grow by, I don’t know, 15%. And that’s gonna be exciting to no one because there is no bigger why behind it. And that’s what we need. I think we need more of that. And I think once you have that work, and you said this already, work can be hard, but it’s still fun because you are going after something that you truly believe in, that you truly wanna accomplish.

    That you think is gonna change something, might be changing something for you. It might be changing something for your employees, but you really wanna ask yourself the question, what is gonna be different after we’ve accomplished this? Because if it’s just more of the same, then why are we doing it?

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. You said strategy is the theory of how are we going to get there, and then aspiration and unknowing, and I think sometimes some of the best three words are. I don’t know. I’m sure Gonna try and find out and, yeah, because that opens up so much possibility. And it also goes back to that being dynamic and the forward motion of things.

    Yes. Yes. And the future is unknown. It 

    Anja Taylor: always is, right? Yes. But I think we’ve forgotten that. We’ve forgotten that because in so many ways for years we could look back. At what used to work, right? Best practices are an example of that. We use vec. We used to look back, figured out, okay, this is what people did.

    This is what companies did, this is how it worked. If I follow these same principles, I have a very good probability of what I’m doing right now is gonna get the same results that works in a stable environment, but we are not in a stable environment anymore. So this the strategy, this theory of how are we gonna get there, becomes even more important because we need something that we can anchor on no matter what the environment is.

    Is throwing at us. And I think, coming back to this idea about communities and businesses being part of the community, I think that’s really important for us as a community to have as well. Especially when I think about Portland and the community we’re in here, what is our strategy? What is our theory of winning?

    What do we wanna win at? What does this gonna look like? And then businesses, I really believe this, these local businesses, not the big corporations. But the businesses that get their employees from our communities that sell into our communities or that have vendors here or that yeah, use resources here.

    And that’s pretty much everybody who is here. They are part of that fabric and they’re gonna be part of lifting us up out of the situation that we’re currently in and really. Have the symbiosis with the community business have a lot of responsibility, and I think that’s why this B Corp movement was so important because it really tied us back to that there’s externalities to business that the businesses need to be accountable for, and we need to minimize the negative externalities and maximize the positive externalities.

    We are not just a place that is transactional, where people get a paycheck and we sell something. We are relational. We are embedded in the social fabric of our communities. People are working not just for a paycheck, but they’re working. We know this from research, right? They’re working to be part of a bigger purpose.

    They’re working to be part of a bigger goal to accomplish something together with others. That’s a very innate human. Desire to do that. People are using work to gain mastery over something. They want to perfect their craft, they wanna be good at something. They wanna learn, they wanna grow. I really believe that the majority of people want that, and they wanna be in an environment where that gets nurtured and not squashed.

    And they also have a really. I think valid expectation at those companies that they’re taking care of them as humans in that sense and not just see them as cogs in the wheel and workers. So I think in that sense, B Corp was really important to establish that and have.

    That legalized like the responsibilities that we have as businesses to our communities, to the environment, to, to everything around us. But I think at the same time I think we got a little bit too. Focused on what are the certifications, how are we doing that? Again, it’s like the optimizing we’re getting into this optimizing framework.

    So for us, we’ve been at B Corp for a long time and we chose not to renew because we really felt it wasn’t worth our effort and resources to, to go through this. Optimization process again and again every two years, I wanna be part of bringing a community together to reach out to people beyond B Corp certifications, to reach out to people beyond.

    You know this group that is already pretty solidified and is doing certain things, I wanna understand what do other local businesses do? I know that there’s a lot of businesses there here in Portland who want to be part of the community, who really value our city, who value Oregon, who value the employees, who value everything that’s around them and wanna be part of that.

    And I think that is the future of the economy at large, these localized. Socioeconomic fabrics. And for me it’s really a fabric because it’s a mesh of very different interests of different entities. So you have business, you have community organizations, you have nonprofits, you have faith organizations, you have all kinds of different people with different ideas that come together.

    And what we’re missing right now I think is like, what are we trying to work towards together? Yes, we wanna be in a better place. We wanna not have to struggle so hard. In terms of funding, in terms of resources that are there, but what does that look like? What are we trying to be? Who are we trying to attract?

    Who are we trying to benefit? All of those questions. I think once we have something like that, it’s much easier for us to come together under that umbrella and say, what can we do? What are the trade-offs that we’re willing to make? That’s another really important part of strategy. Where do we.

    Maybe let something go, but we’re gonna focus on this other thing. I think all of those things are really important conversations that we need to have, and I am a little discouraged sometimes by especially the view on the business community in the city where it’s seen as the enemy or it’s seen as something that is.

    Only extractive, which I think is really coming from a perspective of bigger corporations and especially what we’re seeing right now with the whole economy around AI and all of those things that feels very violating and very extractive to all of us. And so drawing these lines between different types of businesses and really seeing an understanding how businesses are part of our local.

    Fabric and we need to nurture that. They have responsibilities towards us, but also we need to nurture business and help them do the best job they can so they can hold up their end of the bargain and provide. Mostly, the support that, is it financial? Is it, in terms of jobs or is it any type of other community support that they’re very well equipped to give back?

    And so it’s a back and forth and I think that’s a really important conversation that we need to have. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love everything that you’re bringing up too. And it’s been an evolution in a way. I see evolution in funding. From venture capital to angels that used to, so many companies felt left out of that and in even seed money to where now there are more impact investors or investors that are interested in supporting mission-driven companies.

    And it’s starting to evolve. And the other thing is the B Corp community and the B locals, in my opinion, looking back, having been in them for over a decade, is there was some. I won’t say exclusion as much as, but only inclusion for B Corps companies and now through time and part of it being COVID and learning.

    What does community mean? What does support mean? Yeah, what does collaboration mean? That the B local PDX just change their name to on purpose, Oregon, expanding out of the name, creating something that’s very mission driven. What are we doing on purpose? What does on purpose mean? Bringing in members that are.

    Nonprofits that are not B Corps that may be certified in other things. And in my work, it’s also evolved where I wanna meet a company where they are, help them really bring out their mission, vision, and values, and focus on that. And then be able to choose what is the best fit. Is it to certify or not?

    Is it, what does it mean, but how to be the best? Connecting, evolving dynamic entity that can be, that’s building this fabric that you’re talking about. That’s the one of the threads that can be like, something’s only as strong as their weakest thread. So helping that collective I think is a great end goal no matter how a company might go there.

    But to be able to see it, but also see the importance of proof sources that because we’re still in an era where making a claim. Is not great to do without some proof source that creates that, that creates the I’m trying to think of the word, but confidence. 

    And because we still have some companies that have claims that are not, so these things we’re talking about and whether it’s certifying or not, but at least talking about.

    Making impacts, talking about mission, vision, values and having some documentation about that to share because it also brings in stronger partnerships. Yeah. That people are connecting together because of that. And I see that in like consumer goods, finding packaging companies that have. A mission and a vision, but they’re also innovating.

    Yep. And I really think what you’re talking about is creating more innovation and there’s a book out there by Louis Gump called The Inside Innovator that’s about employees and how to have an entrepreneurial, innovative spirit within a company’s also, yeah, a major gift. 

    Anja Taylor: Absolutely. Yeah. We know from research that innovation can come from the innovation department or from the visionary leader, but often, more often than not, it is dispersed in the organization because if you’re close to the work, you see things and you can innovate on that.

    And that’s where the power is. And that’s often where companies that they can harness that and create. A mindset around it. Create incentives around it, motivate people, or people are intrinsically motivated because they see this is being rewarded. Then you see much more innovation. And I think to your point, I think this is so important.

    And again, this is a muscle that has really much. Atrophied at this point. We are not really good innovators anymore. And I think especially as businesses, especially as small businesses, we need to become better at innovating. We need to take some risks. We need to understand that what used to work five years ago or 10 years ago doesn’t work anymore.

    And what is the other thing that we’re doing? What I really love about on purpose and this rebrand and everything that’s happening there is that it invites a broader conversation. I think it’s really important that we bring people together. Who are local, and it doesn’t matter if you B Corp or if you’re a benefit corporation or if you’re just curious or if you’re just a business owner who wants to be part of this community who is here, especially for example, manufacturers.

    The cost of moving is very big and who’s made a bet on Portland and now is trying to figure out how do I create community here so that we all can. Port each other, and I think that is the important conversation. And that doesn’t mean we agree on everything. That might not even mean we agree on the priorities right now, but the ability to listen to each other and to come together and have.

    Have conversations to have discourse. I think all of those things are really important and we need more venues that are structured around that so that we can together come up collectively with better solutions. I think especially here, it always strikes me how many separate things. Are going on at the same time where it’s really hard sometimes to understand who’s doing what and there’s duplicate efforts or there’s like many different things that are seemingly going towards the same goal.

    And so I think rather than inventing everything new is bringing people together and just having conversations and not, doing something in a silo. I think that’s where the power is for humans generally. We are good in community. We’re especially. Well suited to come together and help each other, support each other, elevate each other.

    And in a town like Portland that is fairly small and very close knit, I think that is the opportunity and that’s where we really have a competitive advantage of. We can overcome the segmentation and the silos and really figuring out how do we lift each other up together. We have so many great things here.

    Apart from, the environment, we have the Albina Vision Trust, we have the Frog Ferry Initiative. We have so many cool things that we could throw our energy behind that are important that are. Potentially life changing for the people who live in this community. And so I think we really need to figure out like, what do we have already?

    How can we come together? How can we support each other? How can we support these efforts with each other? And really looking past our own little horizon and reaching out to each other. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. And I think this is something visionary that you’re tapping into, but also. With on purpose, Oregon and other cities and states may have their own as well.

    Is that. Wesley who is the ed is starting to look at it the way I see the world too is ’cause I’m a member of so many different things. Yeah. It’s almost like overlapping concentric circles that there’s, there is a common ground. Even though an organization for instance, better Portland and other cities may have similar things, which is a gathering of businesses to share their voice, to help with changing legislation on issues like homelessness and safety and transportation and.

    Prosper Portland, which gives grants and things like that. There’s different ways they do it, but the overlapping focus seems to be very, very similar. It’s how do we help local businesses and how do we help this fabric? And I see on purpose Oregon as being a. A more inclusive part of that over time and coming up with a speaker series called Common Ground, which is just kicking off, and I’m seeing this having come from Champions Retreat a few months ago.

    That other communities were talking about the same thing. That it’s not just B Corps, it is community. It is, 

    Anja Taylor: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Really what are the nonprofits doing? And everybody has a role, but looking at it as there are overlaps and recognizing that and being a part of it. So with all this and your wonderful quotes what are some obstacles and challenges that you’re seeing for you and the community?

    Anja Taylor: Yeah, I think what I alluded to is the fragmentation, and I think a little bit of the sentiment that business tends to be negative or that growth is a bad thing, and I understand where that comes from, but I really would like everybody to consider moving forward in a way that is supportive of all the communities.

    And I think. We really need to recognize that we can’t stop the future. We can’t go back to how things may be used to be. And I think we need to adapt to really figuring out how do we get into the next decade in a way that has a focus on what we wanna build here. So we need to identify what that looks like and we need to.

    Really put a vision forth on how we are going to manifest that. And so I think those are some of the challenges that I’m seeing right now where we’re insular tackling problems and we’re very focused on those and I think that’s important. But I think it’s also important to have some sort of a vision of Portland and Oregon in 2036 that is.

    Really inspiring and broad enough that people can self-select into it and then figure out how can we support it. As a business community, as a nonprofit community, as just citizens living here, all of those things we need to come together and this is really what I love about the Albino Vision Trust, is that they’re really putting that forth.

    They’re putting a vision forth and. And I can get excited about this. I, as somebody who you know, has been living in Portland for 20 years, looks at that and it’s like, this is awesome. This is not just awesome for that particular parcel of land that they have, but this is awesome for the whole city because the vision that they have is so.

    Comprehensive and is really one where you uplift everybody. Like this is something where people would, I, this is how I see it. Like I wanna go there and walk at the waterfront and go to the shops that are gonna be there and go through that community and spend my money there. That’s the idea.

    Like we wanna bring that flourishing. To the city through these developments and it’s a very long-term vision and it’s not there yet. And when you look around it’s like you, you get like the motor center issues and all that going on, but it’s something that is exciting and motivating and so I think we need more of that type of stuff.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that you brought that up. And there’s also some other developments, and for listeners, this is about areas where people have been displaced over past decades and rebuilding for inclusivity. And I love reading a quote, I think it was Ru Adams who runs the the ine of Vision Trust. It was also about saying we’re not asking permission.

    This is something that is 

    Anja Taylor: Yes, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: that is. Going to happen. I find it so exciting. I love the idea of an inclusive equity based city. We’ll probably never be there wholly, but the advancement toward that in the conversations, it’s super, super important. And with that, what I will put in, I’ll, in the show notes, a link to the Albina Vision, trust, and some other things we’re discussing as well.

    With that, what makes you optimistic? 

    Anja Taylor: I think I’m just an eternal optimist. Like I, I need to be optimistic. I need to be optimistic because I’m doing this work. I wanna be optimistic about the place where I’m living, where I’m raising my kids. I’m optimistic because of. A lot of people that I’m meeting that share those goals that do are doing great things.

    Right now I’m working with a business owner who has a company of 600 people who really wants to create another entity that is solely focused on helping people thrive. That is his personal mission. That is what he wants to do. He’s willing to put his energy behind it. He’s willing to put resources behind it.

    Those are the things. Those are members of our community that have vision for what could be different. They are. Resource to do something. And there’s a lot of things he could be doing. There’s a lot of things that demand his attention, but he’s a, he has said this is what I’m gonna do.

    This is, I’m gonna make this my life’s work. And that gives me a lot of hope, a lot of optimism, and quite frankly is so motivating in the work that I’m doing every day that I feel like if, we can amplify that, wanna put that out there, manifest it more of that place. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, thank you for that. And I also find what makes me optimistic is innovators are still innovating, and yes, we’re making strides and some people are just head down doing something and they pop up with all sorts of ideas that are changing the way we do work and the way we do life, and helping make things cleaner.

    And recognizing that science matters, but also just looking at what stresses people and how to reduce that and how to make. Work more productive, but also fun and healthy. 

    Anja Taylor: Yes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think there’s a lot to that. 

    Anja Taylor: Absolutely. Yeah. No and I think, I’m personally not somebody who shies away from hard things.

    I like hard things. I ride my bike every weekend and I go uphill because I love that. I love a challenge. I love something that I can sink my teeth into. So challenges don’t really scare me, but I would like to see more of a community. Effort and a little bit more we all going in the same direction.

    I think that is my hope for the future. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so awesome. So how can people reach you and how can people help you? 

    Anja Taylor: Yeah. Thank you for that question. You can reach me probably best on LinkedIn. So it’s Anja Taylor, and Anja is spelled A-N-J-A. And then Taylor is T-A-Y-L-O-R. The company is Kinesis, K-I-N-E-S-I-S. Yeah, we help owner operated businesses grow and thrive, and that’s probably the easiest. How can people help? I think people can help by showing up to conversations, by listening first. I think that’s really important. I think I’m always open for a conversation. I’d invite conversations. I love to talk to people, especially business owners.

    We have obviously a lot of voices in our community and our clients, and I always love to add to that and bring people together and connect people. So I guess I’m answering the question, how can I help? So that is what I like to do. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Definitely a two way street. And now we’re into the final question.

    If you could have dinner with anyone up to a table of four, including you living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Anja Taylor: Yeah. That’s such a hard question. It’s like when you think about all the opportunities. Yeah. Meeting so many wonderful and great people. I would say I take dinner with my kids and my wife any day.

    But given this particular question first one has to be Michelle Obama great admirer of her. Just find her incredibly impressive. Yeah, I would just, I would probably be completely starstruck or however that, whatever you say, I know I probably would have to prepare like my question in advance, but I would love to have a conversation with her.

    The second person would be Ramdas. Love, love him, not only for his insights and this amazing life that he has lived, but he’s also incredibly funny. Been listening to his podcasts and talks, well, I don’t know, podcasts. He didn’t do podcasts, that they didn’t exist back then, but the talks that he’s been giving over the years, and he’s so witty and just makes me laugh so many times.

    And so I really apart from his insights, I really, really love listening to him. I would love to. To have ’em at a table. I think it will be wonderful. And then the last person is a personal family friend. Actually of my parents who died 20 years ago, he had cancer. And so I would love the opportunity to connect with him.

    He was in his fifties at the time and he had lived a very adventurous and wonderful life. And I, now I’m 50 and I would love to just reconnect with him and ask him questions and just learn more about his life’s journey. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What a beautiful table. Anja Taylor, you are a delight. So insightful, and this has been a wonderful conversation.

    Anja Taylor: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for giving me the opportunity, Kim. And I always love when we meet and talk, so I’m looking forward to the next time. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. I love what you’re doing in the community, so I think that’s a part of the joy of being in a room with you.

    Thank you everyone. I’m signing off with the Mighty Measure Podcast and wishing you a good week, a good month, and a good year. Take care everyone. Bye-bye. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Anja Taylor

    Anja Taylor smiling in front of an olive green wall.

    As President of Kinesis, Anja Taylor combines her leadership and operational experience with her passion for building thriving teams and businesses. Since joining Kinesis as Director of Operations in 2017, Anja has played a pivotal role in shaping the company’s approach to growth and collaboration. Anja is a natural galvanizer. Her passion for building strong cultures that foster employee engagement fueling small business success makes her an engaging speaker and trusted advisor to many business owners.

  • Making Hiring More Human: Networking, Informational Interviews, and Strategic Job Searching with Mac Prichard of Mac’s List

    Making Hiring More Human: Networking, Informational Interviews, and Strategic Job Searching with Mac Prichard of Mac’s List

    Mac Prichard, founder and CEO of Mac’s List, joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about how hiring works and how job seekers and employers can navigate it. 

    Mac shares his communications career and periods of unemployment that taught him the value of job-search skills, networking, and referrals. 

    He argues that while tools like “easy apply” and AI have changed, core principles remain: be clear about goals, build a short list of target employers, and connect with people inside them through purposeful informational interviews. 

    He warns against over-reliance on technology and emphasizes that hiring is driven by risk reduction and relationships, with added challenges from ageism and racial discrimination. 

    For employers, he stresses training, respectful communication, and treating hiring as a brand experience by acknowledging applicants and providing closure. 

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Introductions

    01:04 Macs List Origin Story

    03:11 Hiring Basics Still Human

    06:16 Job Search Skills That Work

    09:38 Employers Hiring Smarter

    12:05 Informational Interviews Guide

    15:23 Finding Values Driven Employers

    18:54 Ageism Bias and Strategy

    20:38 AI Interviews and Authenticity

    21:39 Optimism and Perspective

    23:36 Dont Wait to Be Picked

    25:30 Candidate Experience and Ghosting

    28:44 How to Connect with Macs List

    29:47 Dinner Guests and Wrap Up

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. I’m Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast here today with Mac Prichard, who’s the founder and CEO of Mac’s List. Mac’s List is a regional job board that helps people find jobs that matter and employers connect with the best candidates. Mac is the author of the books, Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and Land Your Dream Job in Portland, and is the host of the Top 40 Apple ranked weekly career advice podcast, Find Your Dream Job. Today we’re gonna talk about understand how hiring works and make the system work for you and guarantee this will bring us up to date on issues such as AI and DEI and all sorts of things in the hiring world.

    Mac, it is so good to see you. Welcome.

    Mac Prichard: It’s a pleasure to be on the show. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: We’ve known each other for quite a while through a variety of community groups and boards and going through employment. There was a time when I was laid off and unemployed and went to Mac’s List and really appreciated it.

    So tell us, what is your journey and inspirations that have led you to this point today?

    Mac Prichard: As you mentioned, I run a regional job board based in Portland, Oregon. We serve employers and candidates in Oregon and Washington State. In addition to the job board, you’ll find eight, 900 positions there in a typical month.

    We provide lots of information about how to look for work and how to hire smarter. My career Kim has been in communications. I grew up in the Midwest and I, when I got out of the University of Iowa, I wanted to do three things, work in politics get paid to write and be involved in.

    Human rights issues in Central America. This was in the 1980s, and by the time I was 25, I’d done all of those things. But then I had a long period of unemployment and that taught me the importance of learning, job search skills and networking. And good networkers. As you know, Kim, not only ask for help they serve others.

    So in the years that followed, I’ve. Worked largely in communications. I was a speech writer for Governor of Oregon. I ran communications for the Big Dig in Boston in the 1980s. Worked for a mayoral candidate at City Hall in Portland. Was involved in nonprofit communications running programs and ran my own public relations firm for 15 years until about three years ago.

    But the constant running through all these jobs was trying to make a difference about things I cared about or in make a positive difference in the community where I lived and worked. And Mac’s List allows me to do that because. There’s nothing more life changing than helping somebody find a great job or an employer find a great worker.

    And it’s and so that’s what we do at Mac’s List. Our mission is to help people find work that matters and to make hiring more human. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I love that about you. And now things, I’ve been a hiring manager as well, and the way hiring is done has changed over time quite a bit. There’s been a lot of evolution because of technology, but it’s still a very human-centric thing to do.

    So I appreciate you being out there. What are you seeing and hearing in the community about hiring and. And what are the thing now with the acronyms, ai, DEI, how is it changing and how are people responding to Mac’s List and how you see the world? 

    Mac Prichard: You’re right. The tools and the technology have changed.

    I came into the workplace in 1980 and in those days a popular graduation gift for people coming outta college or high school was a book called What Color Is Your Parachute? And do you remember that book? It’s still out there. And I do, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah. 

    Mac Prichard: Yeah. And candidly, it’s as valuable as ever. It was written by Dick Bowles, Richard Bowles in, I think it first appeared in 1970, but the reason I bring it up, Kim, is the principles that it lays out about how to find a good job.

    Be clear about your goals, identify target employers connect with people who have insights into those opportunities or those organizations that can provide referrals. They all still matter today, and what has changed in the 40 plus years since I got outta college are not those principles, but the tools.

    So you can, it’s very easy as anyone who’s been. On one of the global job boards like LinkedIn recently to use something called the easy apply button, and you can generate hundreds of applications. But the people who get hired and the employers who are making hiring decisions are still paying attention to those principles because.

    Risk is a big factor in hiring decisions. Employers want to reduce risk, and the way they do that one way is to rely on referrals and connections. And I would challenge your audience who are listening to reflect on the best jobs they’ve ever had. And I’ll bet you a connection or a referral played a part in their learning about that job or giving them insights into what that employer needed, or to helping them prepare for an interview.

    Sometimes lightning does strike you. You send out an application through a job board, and you don’t know anybody there, but you do your homework, you do the preparation, you get the job. But often in the majority of cases, a referral or connection, plays a vital part in that hiring decision.

    And the good news, Kim, is you can generate those connections, you can make those referrals. But to do that you gotta pay attention to those principles that I mentioned at the start that Dick, and it wasn’t just Dick Bowles who was writing about this other career coaches and resume writers will tell you about this as well.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And I love what you said about good networkers, ask for help and offer help as well. And I think that’s part of it. ’cause there’s sometimes it, the word networking can be, it just sends a shutter through some people when it feels false and transactional. But when it’s really genuine it, it can really make a difference.

    And offering help and asking help. What are you seeing as obstacles and challenges currently? 

    Mac Prichard: I think the biggest obstacle and challenge for job seekers is over-reliance on technology. And also it’s not, it’s, it’s not investing in learning the job search skills that you’re gonna need throughout your career.

    And let me explain those two points. And let’s start with the skills. And if you’re coming into the workforce or you’re halfway through or near the end. And in the 40 years you’re out there working you’re likely to change jobs 8, 10, 12 times. And so it’s important to learn your job search skills as early as you can.

    And if you haven’t invested time in it, no, no worries. There’s no no time like the president. But when I’m talking about this skim Kim, what I have in mind is. Too many people and I did all these things early in my career, so I get it. Too many people though say, I’m keeping my options open.

    Let me know if you hear of anything. And they and they sit down at a computer and they look for available jobs that might interest them or sound cool. And they think that what matters is quantity. And so they track the number of applications they send out. And it always breaks my heart when I see these news stories where people say I don’t understand.

    I’ve applied for 300 jobs and I haven’t gotten an interview. Technology makes it easy to do those things. And what you gotta do is you’ve gotta have clear goals about the job you want and you gotta be able to say to people, I’m looking for in my case it would’ve been. A communications position at a large nonprofit working in these areas versus let me know if you hear of anything.

    I’m doing a job search. When you’re specific, you make it easy for people to help you. You also make it easy for yourself to build a list of target employers. There. You can go on LinkedIn, which is a fine site or Mac’s List and you can find on LinkedIn thousands of places. You could work hundreds on Mac’s List.

    But really, if you spend the time to get clear about what you want and what you’re negoti, your, you gotta haves are like commuting time, salary, the values of the organization, there’s, there are probably only two or three dozen employers who offer what you want. And your job when you’re doing a job search is to figure out that target list and focus on those organizations because when you have a clear goal and a short list of target employers, then Kim, you can spend your time connecting with people inside those organizations.

    And it, it is called networking, but also it’s relationship building, it’s research and because when you do that, you’ll get insights into what those employers want. And you can present yourself as the problem solver who can make their life easier, and in the end, that’s what employers are hiring for.

    So those three skills. Are vital. If if you want to have a shorter and easier job search, know the job you want, have a short list of target employers and invest time in going out and talking to people inside your target organizations. Now we serve job seekers at Mac’s List. We also serve employers, and many of our employers are smaller.

    They have 25, 50 or fewer employees. And as you probably know, the most organizations don’t have an HR person until they have, 50 or more people so often. The organization that’s posting on our site, the person who’s doing it hasn’t been trained in hiring. And and so while we’re talking about job search, for employers, you’ve also, if you don’t have a full-time recruiter or an HR professional, you’ve also gotta to invest in hiring skills.

    Because if you do that, you’ll get better candidates and you’ll also provide a much better experience for your applicants.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes sense to me and I’m gonna reflect back a little bit on my experience I had, I was in the corporate world for quite a while and the first company I worked for, and this is in the pharmaceuticals industry, so you know, very scientific based, but also sales. And I was so blessed to be in with a company that trained us and when.

    There was growth in the company, promoted to managers. There were, quite a few of us. They actually put us through training, not just once, but annually. Refreshing and taught us how to interview because there’s this saying that people tend to hire in their own image and immediately you like somebody and say, oh that’ll be great.

    That never works out very well. And really teaching about. How to be curious and unpeel the onion and really get to know someone and have situational questions where you about how would you solve a problem, what were the obstacles, what did you do about it? So it’s, I think you’re bringing up something that’s so important, being an employer and having good skills.

    Helps make a better match. And it’s good for the candidate and for the employer. And doing it, two or three interviews is really important. It’s, it takes some time to get to some core things, like what are responses, what are behaviors, what does a person’s thought process how can they contribute?

    And on the candidate side, it can feel really refreshing to get past some standard questions and be able to express. What somebody brings to the table. So I’m really glad you brought that up about employers and interviews too. And what do you think of inter informational interviews? 

    Mac Prichard: I think they’re vital.

    If you are doing a job search and an informational interview is a conversation with someone who has knowledge that is useful to you in your search, there’s a reason why you want to talk to this person. And if you don’t know what that reason might be, don’t reach out to them until you do. Often it’s a rookie mistake, and again, I’ve made it myself earlier in my career.

    You reach out to people and say let’s get coffee, and you don’t have a clear purpose for the meeting. An informational interview is a, it’s a business meeting and if you’re calling it, you’re in charge, which means, you set the agenda and so you gotta walk into that room or coffee shop or zoom call knowing what it is you want to get from this conversation.

    And usually Kim, it’s just one or two things. Common reasons for an informational interview. Maybe there’s somebody who has the job you want and you’re curious about how they got there and what qualifications and experiences they needed. Or maybe you wanna talk to the person who hired somebody like that to find out what informed their hiring decision so you can get insights on how to best present yourself.

    Maybe you’re making a career change. You wanna get a sense of what the market pays for the positions that you want. You want advice about how to present your transferable skills to an employer. In a way that’s gonna be interesting and presentable. Maybe there’s some reason you think you can’t make this career change.

    We all carry around these objections in our head about why we can’t do something. Turn them into questions and find somebody who’s made that transition and ask them about those challenges and how they would advise you to address them. Those are all great reasons to have informational interviews.

    And I would say that a good informational interview. Kim has three parts and you can do all this in 20 to 30 minutes. First, you introduce yourself and your goals. Second, there’s you talk about the two or three questions that you have for this person. It could be three to five. And then the third part is you ask for suggestions about other people that, that might be helpful and you can do all three of those things in in 30 minutes or less.

    And when you end that call or leave that coffee shop or bring that meeting to a close if you’ve accomplished those three things, that’s a successful meeting. And I think sometimes people struggle with informational interviews because they’re not sure what to ask for and what success looks like, and they think, oh, somebody should open a drawer and take out a job and say you should apply for this, or, yeah.

    And, it’s really again, a good job search is like a research project. You’re trying to find the place that offers what you want, where you can thrive, and so you can focus your energy on building connections and relationships inside that organization rather than just applying to everything you see online.

    That sounds interesting. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s such good points about it because the other thing is the assumption that, oh, somebody would be too busy. Why would they wanna talk to me? But giving those reasons upfront can, yeah, can create a really strong relationship. 

    Mac Prichard: It can. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And I also have a thought about, because you and I are in the world of social enterprise a lot in community with a lot of the organizations that have strong values in companies that are values driven.

    And what do you think about employees or people who are looking for jobs with companies that have good values or are benefit corporations? Do you have any thoughts for them about how do you search for the company by values as well as opportunities and what the actual work might be? 

    Mac Prichard: When you’re building that list of target employers let’s step back.

    When you’re starting your search, I think your values are central to the figuring out where you want to go next. And and there are other factors too. Salary, commute time flexibility in schedule opportunities for growth. Values need to be part of that mix. You don’t have to leave your values at the door when you’re doing a job search.

    So you should consider all those factors in. Helping you build that that list of target employers and and then look for those organizations. And there, we can talk about tactical ways to do that. You can find in certainly in Oregon and any state there’s usually a business magazine that serves a state or a city, and they’ll publish lists of.

    Top green employers or mission-driven employers or top nonprofits and you, and those can be great resources for, and you can find similar lists online. And as you do your information interviews, you can ask people for, tell them what you’re looking for and ask for suggestions about places that offer what you want and as whatever your tar your goals might be.

    The universe is probably not gonna be that big Kim. You’re probably only gonna be 25, 50 employers that offer what you want, whatever you’ve put on your list. And that’s good news because it allows you, again, to focus your search in a strategic way that will allow you to build the connections and referrals you need, that matter so much in hiring decisions.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think you said something really key. A narrower search list. It’s can be really important for your sanity too, because I think sometimes, like I’ve been laid off and know a lot of people who have been, or who are searching and there’s a franticness to it sometimes and just trying to find as much as possible and that just creates more stress.

    And what you’re saying makes such a key way for somebody to be able to take a breath, calm down and say, yes, I can guide this. I don’t have to throw spaghetti against a wall and see what sticks, but actually be able to. To hone the search in a way that might make them feel more encouraged as well.

    And there’s a lot to that. Less is 

    Mac Prichard: more. Yeah. Success is not sending out hundreds of applications and sometimes we have bills to pay. Our unemployment can run out. I went through two long periods of unemployment and I cashed the last unemployment check once and came within one check of doing it a second time.

    And so sometimes you have to take paycheck jobs. These can be temporary positions, staffing agencies, and that’s okay. There’s a dignity that comes from work and from working and paying your bills, but it is very important to get clear about what you want and focus on that rather than focus on sending out lots and lots of applications.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And what are you seeing particularly now with people over 50 and people of color are, what are you seeing as the challenges in that group now? ’cause they’ve always had some challenges, but considering ai considering it’s 2026, what’s your viewpoint? 

    Mac Prichard: Ageism is real. And the unemployment rate for blacks is just to name one.

    Minority group has always historically been higher than for whites. No matter what the overall unemployment rate might be. I think. If you are in a group like that, it becomes even more important to be strategic and focused in your search and to turn to your connections and your relationships and to build those ties as you look for work because again, employers rely on referrals in order to reduce risk. And if you, and that’s one of the ways hiring works. And so if you understand how the system works, you can make it work for you. You ageism and discrimination and hiring based on race is both are illegal but candidly both happen every day.

    So you can, what you gotta focus on, what you can control. And you if you’re an older candidate, think about how you’re presenting yourself and you’re both online and in person. And you can find lots of tips about how to do this online. And if you’re so look, get educated about how to do that well, and it will help you.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, it’s, you’ve got such great insight and I really appreciate that. ’cause things are changing for people and yet what you’re bringing back to this is the human nature of seeking a job is still human to human, even though right now. Some people are being interviewed by non-humans that’s bought interviews.

    There was a thing on NPRA couple of months ago on Point is one of the programs and they talked in depth for an hour about Yeah. People’s interview experience with and never being able to reach a human in the process. So I love what you’re saying about the three points of getting back into the people part of it.

    Mac Prichard: I also hear from recruiters and HR directors that candidates who are being interviewed are using AI to generate answers. Don’t do that. If you’re doing a job search, because people hire other people and and you gotta be yourself and you gotta focus on the organizations and the opportunities that you want.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah I think the humanity’s still there. What makes you optimistic? 

    Mac Prichard: Hiring happens every day in, in the world of employment. And the people who invest in job search skills, learning them well have shorter and easier searches and more rewarding careers. I think globally, I think the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago.

    There’s a lot that’s wrong, but recently Kim I heard Nick Christoff, the New York Times column. Speak here in Oregon. And he acknowledged that there, there’s many reasons to be worried about the world, but looking at things like the global poverty rate literacy rate wealth among women.

    There has been significant change in the last 50 years. So I think also I’m in a history book club. We read a different book every month, and the more I know about history, I’m not whitewashing what’s happening today, the more optimistic it makes me because we’ve there are times when things have been really bad and and overall.

    Slowly. I think we are seeing improvement. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So you and I are both in Oregon and Nick Christophe is originally from Oregon and both we share of a fandom with, of Nick Christophe. I think he’s got a lot to say as well, so thanks for bringing that up and history. We’ll have to sit and have a coffee and talk about History book sometime because I see history as, and people are getting to the point where his, some historians write books.

    Of true history, like they’re novels. It’s like they’re page turners and they’re so interesting. But I also think knowing history gives us pattern recognition and the ability to anticipate and perhaps solve problems before they happen. And not knowing history and not knowing patterns means where it’s surprised by something is looking like it’s new, but it isn’t.

    Humanity has traveled some roads like this before. There’s similarities. Yeah. It’s so interesting. Is there anything else you’d like to share with people? 

    Mac Prichard: I would say if you’re doing a job search, don’t wait to be picked. If you know the place you wanna work and the job you want, reach out to those organizations or talk to the people who are doing that work. Too often Kim, I meet people who tell me they’re interested in working in a particular organization, which is wonderful. And I’ll say who are you talking to over there? And I say I don’t know anyone. But I look at the careers page every day and that’s good.

    You should look at the website and the careers page, and it’s good that you have a target. But there’s nothing stopping you from going to LinkedIn or your alumni database if you went to a community college or university and finding people or just asking your friends and family if they know anyone inside that organization and start connecting and building relationships with people on the inside because.

    I would add challenge your listeners to, to reflect. Many of them I know have been involved in hiring decisions. They’ve probably been tasked with going through a tall stack of resumes, and they’ll get 50, a hundred. These days with the easy apply button, it can be several hundred or even a thousand.

    If, and I think many of the people listening to this show who have been in that situation can recall getting a text or a call or an email from someone saying, Hey, my friend Kim applied for that job. You should take a look at her resume or her application. That’s not gonna get you the job, or maybe even a formal interview, but it will get your application pulled out of the pile.

    And it’ll get more attention than the seven seconds Research shows. Most recruiters look at a resume. Don’t wait to be picked. If you know where you want to go and what you want, start building connections and relationships now. And I would say to employers because we’re talking about the hiring system, remember that hiring is a brand experience.

    For can. And so everybody who applies for your position is gonna think about that experience. And I’m always shocked, Kim by employers who haven’t set up automated systems to acknowledge receipt of a resume or an application. It’s not that hard and nobody likes to hear no, but everybody likes resolution, so it’s better to send out a short professional email saying, we got your application.

    Appreciate your time and effort, but we’re gonna move ahead with other candidates. Thank you. Rather than not say anything. And I’m always shocked by the employers who invite people into the process for a phone screener, an in-person interview, and then never get back to the candidate. Why would you do that?

    Every everybody who has that experience is gonna talk about it, and that’s not good for, first of all, it’s not right. It’s not a professional thing to do, but it’s also not good for your brand as a, an employer. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, as someone who’s been a job seeker, I so agree and thank you for bringing that up. It’s resolution does matter.

    Being ghosted is. Does not feel great. 

    Mac Prichard: It doesn’t, and I know you’ve been an employer. I’ve hired my share of people at Mac’s List and my other company and I’ve tried and I’ve followed, worked hard to follow my own advice. And I’m not tooting my own horn here, but I know that em, I’m sure that employers who follow good practices have heard from candidates.

    I actually call people to tell them we’re not moving ahead with her. You know who I’ve interviewed. And they’ll say, oh, and there’s always disappointment, but often people will say thank you for letting me know. And so I know that there’s disappointment, but they will know that you’ve treated them with professionalism and respect, and that’s gonna create in the long run goodwill for your company.

    And it’s also, and the reason you should do it is it’s the right thing to do, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: right. And the human thing to do. And it also, it’s an opportunity for the employer and the candidate too, to say. But is there an opportunity at another time for a different opportunity? And sometimes that helps create a lead for something new.

    And I’ve seen that happen just because the discussion wasn’t that they weren’t a great candidate for the position, but there’s only one position. Somebody else filled it, but there’s still opportunity in the future perhaps, and to keep that door open and it’s a good thing for the company to do too.

    So I’m really glad you brought that up. 

    Mac Prichard: Yeah, absolutely. And every place is a small town, so whatever your occupation or sector or field, the odds are good that at the next professional association or the conference, you’re gonna see those people. Again, it’s the right thing to do but you also, it’s a great way to avoid the awkwardness of seeing somebody you ghosted.

    And why would you do that? Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, it’s so important. What can people do for you and for Mac’s List and how can people reach you? 

    Mac Prichard: Visit our website Mac’s List.org. You’ll find eight to 900 jobs in Oregon and Washington there, and there are some remote positions, but most are hybrid or in person.

    We also provide lots of content about how to look for work and how to hire smarter. We have hundreds of articles on both topics. And we as you mentioned at the top of the show I host a weekly career advice podcast, find Your Dream Job. We’ve been doing it for 10 years, so we’ll find lots of practical advice about how to find your next position.

    And if you’re in Portland, we, we did resume our in-person events in 2025. We do four a year. And you can learn more about those events. HA two, two of the four are for job seekers, two are for employers by visiting our website. And please connect with me on LinkedIn. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, you are great on LinkedIn too.

    I see you there frequently. And the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone up to three other people for a table of four living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Mac Prichard: It’s an interesting question. I worked in politics for a long time, so one of my political heroes is Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

    I would love to have had the opportunity to talk to him. That would be, he was so good at what he did. I think growing up my grandfather’s house was filled with all these Japanese antiques that his d his dad brought back from Japan in the 1870s and eighties. I’d love to talk to my great-grandfather to hear the story behind those objects.

    And I have a great passion for silent film. He’s an actress, Louise Brooks who was. A star in the twenties and was at the center of everything for a little while. And it would be great to hear her stories 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: all first. I What a great list. It’s so interesting. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And we’ll sign off now.

    This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure. Thank you all and have a great day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Mac Prichard

    Mac Prichard smiling with his arms crossed in an outdoor setting.

    Mac Prichard is the founder and CEO of Mac’s List, a regional job board that helps people find jobs that matter and employers connect with the best candidates. Mac is also the author of the books Land Your Dream Job Anywhere and Land Your Dream Job in Portland and the host of the top 40 Apple ranked weekly career advice podcast Find Your Dream Job.

  • Accountability, Certification, and the Triple Bottom Line with Tom Hering of Benefit Corporations for Good (BCFG)

    Accountability, Certification, and the Triple Bottom Line with Tom Hering of Benefit Corporations for Good (BCFG)

    Tom Hering, co-founder and managing partner of Benefit Corporations for Good (BCFG), joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about whether small businesses truly reflect their values and how to communicate them with accountability.

    Hering shares his three-act career journey from advertising to purpose-driven business through the Benefit Corporation structure, and describes BCFG’s work since 2018 certifying businesses across 13 states and one Canadian province around people, planet, and profit.

    They discuss challenges including a trust deficit from purpose-washing, accessibility for small businesses, funding and scale, purpose fatigue, and an awareness gap about Benefit Corporations.

    Hering outlines BCFG’s process (values quiz, legal benefit status, 60-question assessment across eight standards, annual public benefit reports) and highlights community-building events, student support from University of Oregon’s Allen Hall PR teams, optimistic market data and generational expectations, ways listeners can help, and how to connect via BCFG’s website, newsletter, and YouTube.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    02:00 Tom Journey to Purpose

    04:38 Trust Deficit and Community

    09:44 Key Challenges Today

    14:34 Why Optimism Is Rising

    18:04 Expansion Beyond Oregon

    21:39 How Certification Works

    27:05 Student Outreach and Mentorship

    33:53 Recertification and Value Proof

    39:33 How to Support and Connect

    43:22 Dream Dinner Guests

    47:00 Closing Thanks and Wrap

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick of the Mighty Measure Podcast, and I’m thrilled to be here today with a friend. Tom Hering is co-founder and managing partner of Benefit Corporations for Good, also known as BCFG, an organization he launched in 2018 along with Mary Anne Harmer to grow the benefit company movement across Oregon and North America.

    Under his leadership, BCFG has certified businesses in 13 states and one Canadian province championing a triple bottom line of people, planet, and profit. He is the co-founder of two books. Putting soul into business, how the BI Benefit Corporation is transforming American business and 25 building blocks to create a conscientious organization and currently serves as a member of the advocacy action team for the Interfaith Alliance on Poverty.

    Tom holds a degree from the University of Oregon School of Journalism and Communication. Today we’re gonna talk about. Does your small business truly reflect its values? And there’ll be some key takeaways why a responsible small business communicates its values to all stakeholders. What lies at the heart of small businesses practicing the triple bottom line, and how a small business builds in accountability to its mission, vision, and values.

    Tom, welcome. It’s so great to have you here. 

    Tom Hering: It is awesome to be with you, Kim. I am honored and look forward to chatting with you here over the next few minutes and see if I can, help bring some interesting viewpoint or enlighten a few people or just reaffirm some things to some of the great leaders that might be listening to your podcast, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: all of the above.

    And a nod to Mary Anne Harmer. I met her first and she led me to BCFG in 2018, and we’ve all been friends ever since. So I am truly blessed by that. So let’s start with what has been your life journey and the inspirations that brought you to this point? 

    Tom Hering: This is just a very interesting question. I know that, you sent these ahead to me, Kim, to look at ’em, and really, my journey is simply defined by three x.

    All right. And honestly, I didn’t really figure out how they were connected until I was deep into this one, the third one. And little bit about the first two acts they were spent in advertising. I was copyrighted creative director. Are two decades of learning how to shape stories communicate what a company stands for.

    And I really did love it at that time, but somewhere along the line I started asking a harder question, particularly in my second act, that what do I actually wanna stand for? And, the question started to become impossible to ignore. And that is I wanted my third act to mean something beyond the campaign, beyond the ads, beyond the beyond beyond the radio spots.

    And so I started exploring the intersection of business and purpose, along with my co-founder and now retired partner Mary Anne Harmer. And that’s when we discovered the Benefit Corporation structure. The idea that a company could embed its commitment to people and plan it into its legal DNA, not just in its marketing materials or pr brochures.

    But something that was genuinely electrifying. And my inspirations have always been, the entrepreneur, the entrepreneurs who refuse to accept the false choice between profit and purpose, that they were not, opposites but actually work together. And those business owners who you know, who look at their team, their community, their environment, and say, these are not trade-offs, these are responsibilities.

    Every one of our certified members in the BCFG community inspires me, including you, Kim, and you are our very first certified BCFG. I want listeners to know about that. And we’re very humbled still to this day by that and you all in, in that community and our community are really proof that there’s another way of doing business.

    You know that it’s not only possible, but it is actually happening.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What a lovely way to put it. And thank you for the nod. It’s the so much fun. I was so delighted to hear about BCFG. And learn what you and Maryanne were putting together. And I thought, I’m, I’ve gotta be on board and haven’t looked back. I’m so delighted. What are you seeing and hearing in the community and what do you see about you in terms of what you’re doing and how the community’s responding?

    Tom Hering: Yeah the way I see it as the communities we serve are small business owners and they are simultaneously really the most underestimated. And as I see the most powerful force in the American economy the issue I see most clearly with them, it’s a trust a deficit. Consumers are, increasingly skeptical of corporate purpose claims and rightfully so. purpose washing is everywhere. I remember hearing about greenwashing so much the very first time I heard about Oregon Benefit Company in 2017. From a good friend of ours in the Oregon Secretary of State’s office, and, there’s this thing about companies plastering sustainability language across their websites without a shred of accountability behind it.

    And I think the cynicism, it damages everyone, including the businesses that are general, generally trying to do things right. Another issue that bubbles up for me is accessibility. The infrastructure for purpose-driven business has historically been built for larger companies with ESG departments or legal teams that have the monies to engage with those those specialists, those subject matter experts and small businesses, which represent the vast majority of employers in our country have been largely locked out.

    And so that’s why we came up with Benefit Corporations for Good a, a solution that has a certification but is aimed at the small business person. And this is from solopreneurs to, we have a few businesses that are in the thousands, a 1500 thousand employees are teams. But for the most part, they’re for smaller businesses.

    And our standard really was developed alongside, respected bodies like B Lab and what is the other one I’m thinking about? Green America, GRI, those are similar organizations that are recognized by the Oregon Secretary of State. And designed to be really accessible to small businesses, and we are humbled to be on the, on that page with those three other great business organizations.

    And then we also offer something just as valuable as the certification itself. And I call that community, when our purpose-driven business owners find each other. They’re able to accelerate and encourage and inspire each other, and they share practices, they refer customers, and the cool thing is that they really raise the bar collectively.

    And so the solution really to a trust deficit is verifiable accountability. And I think that’s what we provide to these purpose-driven leaders that become part of our community. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I concur from my vantage point as well being in Portland, but also you’re building this across several states and your gatherings are mostly in person, but there are some virtual ones as well, and they aren’t typical networking events.

    I think the magic that you do is bring people together where everyone gets to announce who they are, what they do. And it’s a chance to see who’s in the room. And it brings people much closer together. And I know that I personally have done business with a lot of BCFG businesses because of that, because we’ve had a chance to shake each other’s hand and say hi.

    But not in a sense of networking. It’s more in a sense of the commonality of we’re all here too. Work our butts off, earn money and do it for a higher purpose. And everyone has their own individual view of that. 

    Tom Hering: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. To use an old cliche, you are all singing out of the same hymn book, and it delights me to no end.

    When we have those happy hour for good events or get togethers that bring not only just to our community, but others that are interested or are also purpose-driven leaders, nonprofit leaders come, that it is something that inspires me. That’s what really keeps me going. It is it’s great energy and I’m grateful for every one of those really inspiring professionals that are in the same room on those events in particular, to see that energy and that connect connection.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I think you also do something magical, which is bring a focal point. There’s always someone who’s talking about something specific for 15 to 20 minutes, not too long, not too short, and yet it, it encapsulates the meaning for a particular event. So you’re very, very good at that. We’re gonna switch gears just a little bit and say, what are some of the obstacles and challenges that you’re seeing these days?

    Tom Hering: Yeah, so I, yeah, I came up with three. And these are the ones that, it definitely enters my mind and my heart, pretty regularly every week. And, the very first one is really about scale and advocacy and certification for good. Don’t necessarily attract traditional interested investors.

    We’re not a product, with a hockey stick kind of growth curve. We’re really building infrastructure for a moment and a movement, I should say, and that requires a different kind of patient mission aligned support. Finding that support at the scale needed to grow our impact remains our most persistent challenge.

    And so that’s cer certainly one of the three obstacles challenges I think that are on that weigh on me pretty regularly. And the second one is what I call purpose fatigue. There’s so much noise around ESG and sustainability and social impact. That I feel business owners and consumers are becoming somewhat numb.

    When everyone claims to be purposeful, nothing feels meaningful. And our job is really to cut through that noise with something concrete and certification and accountability and annual reporting all add up to, to proof not promises. And I think that’s a good direction.

    And then the last one, and this has been one, since Maryanne and I founded this in this organization in 2018 it’s the awareness gap. And it’s surprising how few people still know about the Oregon Benefit Company or the Benefit Corporation across the United States at this time and date, even though that ability for a business to incorporate as one has been on the books since 2008.

    We’re talking almost 20 years. A remarkable number of small business owners have never heard of it, and a lot of them are living the triple bottom line in practice how they run their businesses. They just don’t know that there’s a legal framework and a certification that formalizes and then validates exactly what they’re doing.

    Every conversation we have is partly in education, and education at scale takes time and resources. That’s something I finally have accepted. So none of these, it’s funny, Kim. None of these challenges really discourage me, but they certainly help clarify the work that I need to do as the leader of this community.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And you’re doing it well and you bring up something really important it that it is true. There is still greenwashing and purpose washing, looking good, but not really doing it. And then there’s the other thing that you and I have talked about is in our community, finding these small companies bumping into some, someone in retail may be walking through a door and it’s obvious that they’re doing things with heart, with soul, with purpose, doing some really great things.

    And to see the depth at which they are thinking about their employees, their sourcing. This happens a lot in food. And so ask a couple more questions what is your purpose? What are your values? What do you do? And. They tell me and then I say, oh, and how do you track that?

    Oh, we don’t. Or, it’s, or there’s some vry to it. So there’s the also this I’m not gonna call it a trend, that’s not what I see, but people that really are doing great things and they haven’t thought about really bringing that to light and the value of measuring and documenting and keeping track of that and.

    I find that because of our work my work as well, because I live in the certifications and verifications world and want to showcase what companies are doing, and part of that is measuring and reporting it so that consumers can find the companies that are doing well and know exactly what it means to these ones that are doing great things and don’t showcase it at all.

    And. And that seems to be a gap. And I was wondering what you’re seeing in that regard too. Not the over promising ones, but the ones who are doing great things and can’t even find it on their website or 

    Tom Hering: I think that’s, getting that message out and clarifying that there is some third party that’s helping, to validate claims that have been made by businesses that are doing good is a helpful thing. And you’re right, there are many that are doing that, and I think that’s the one thing that Maryanne and I saw. Back in 2018 is that there were so many good small solopreneurs, small businesses doing amazingly good work but didn’t either have the time or the resource to go through a formal certification.

    I think until we, I think we came along at least and offered an alternative there, things that are really making me optimistic because I was talking about my challenges, but I think there’s some things that are really making me optimistic. Data Next Generation and the businesses I meet every day are totally fueling that for me.

    So a couple interesting recent stats here. For your audience and this is really some data that is pretty much unambiguous. So PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2024 in their voice of consumer survey, found that consumers are willing to pay nearly 10% more. For sustainability produced goods, and this is even in an inflationary environment.

    So this was just two years ago, not even two years ago, Deloitte found that purpose-driven companies retain employees at a 40% higher rate. And a 2024 study from them showed that 94%, 94% of Gen Z consumers expect companies to address social and environmental issues. These aren’t fringe numbers, they’re mainstream market signals.

    The way I see it. This next generation does give me enormous hope particularly millennials and Gen Z. They aren’t asking whether businesses that you know, business asking the question whether a business should be purposeful, but rather they’ve already decided it should be. They’re the dominant consumer and work workforce for the next three decades.

    And they’re businesses that the businesses that understand this now are gonna have a structural advantage for sure. We always say to businesses that are considering coming to our community or whatever certification standard they might be seeking, is that if you really wanna attract the best and the brightest in terms of employees, make sure that you’re paying attention to the needs of those two generations.

    And that is. Basically they wanna work for a business that does more than just make a profit. And, and then I guess the last thing really is that there are the inspiration I find are from, as I mentioned earlier, the business owners themselves. Every company that we’ve certified, from solar providers to law firms, to artisan food producers.

    It’s proof that profit and purpose are not opposites. And these opportunities aren’t sacrificing performance for values. They’re discovering that values, their values are a competitive advantage. And so when I look at all of this together I just don’t feel optimistic. I feel like we’re on the, the right side of history.

    We’re really at an inflection point, I think, and I think that history is moving faster than a lot of people realize. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think you’re so right and it’s why I think I have the best seat in the house with this podcast series as well, is hearing the stories of those people and collectively how much optimism I have as well.

    Because there are innovators and creators and supporters that are doing something for good and collectively, this is a pretty large force of just values and purpose-driven people. In concentric circles all over the place. 

    Yes, and 

    and you’re right. And it’s really encouraging to hear those statistics as well.

    Very encouraging. Yeah. And tell me about the expansion. Other states you’re in 13 states now. Not all states have the, legal entity of Benefit Corporation, but a lot do. And what are you seeing beyond the local area? 

    Tom Hering: I think they’re very similar. right now, I think it’s 40 states that offer Benefit Corporation legislation.

    And I gotta believe that almost every state’s gonna have that at one time or another. Before this whole chapter I guess is written, but what I see a really no different than what I’ve seen in the businesses that we’ve certified in in Oregon. They they’re very purpose driven.

    It’s all built Kim, on values. Their values are aligned. All 13 states have values that are aligned. And I think this is something that I always say, even in our happy hours for Good, which is in person here in Portland, and that is, people should be talking with one another.

    It’s always one of, you’ve heard my pitch, dozens of times now. But I always say to everybody in the room, and we have plenty of people that are new that come each time that are not necessarily certified, but I say. You should be talking to your neighbor who, even if you don’t know them at this point, because your values are aligned, and why would you not wanna do business with somebody who, believes and acts the same way that you do in terms of how you run your business?

    So I see that in these, 13 o other states. I just certify one of our businesses in New Mexico two weeks ago. And it always comes through loud and clear that, they are built on. The belief that the triple bottom line that people, planet and profit that idea is the only way to do business.

    And they’re doing it, they’re doing that. They’re reflecting that in their certification process with BCFG. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Well, congratulations. That’s another state. And I think the other thing I see happening with the magic that you create between companies, and I wanna say not everyone’s like-minded, but certainly like valued.

    And I think the beauty of it all is also diversity of thought that comes into it. Diversity of businesses, diversity of the types of people running those business and working with those businesses, but doing the work together and discovering. Supply chain. Discovering potential partnerships, discovering supporters, discovering contractors discovering.

    Helpers and the assistants and all within that community and beyond. And I know that because of it, I’ve found great companies to work with that I didn’t know of if I wouldn’t, may not have known of if it wasn’t for your group. And because of the group, we’re all getting to know each other more. And that differentiator is values driven because we all have competition too, and some values driven, some not.

    But having that differentiator and being able to find it is really, really something. 

    Tom Hering: It really is. And you’re right. And that’s a, another real benefit of being certified is it is a clearly a differentiator in how you market your business. And it’s something to be, as I said earlier, something that younger generations are particularly looking for.

    And they will do their due diligence and they will look to see what does this business, whether they’re a customer or a prospective customer or a prospective employee. Or just a prospective supportive community member, see what this particular business stands for and stands up for, is what I say. So 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: abs, absolutely.

    And would you mind talking a little bit about the evolution of BCFG since 2018 and what the assessment’s and any changes you’ve made to it? 

    Tom Hering: Yeah, I think ours, is a, it’s a simple process. Really there are just we say there are really three things to move forward into our community. And that first thing is obviously to see if you’re a good fit. And we have a free values alignment quiz that is on our homepage. There are 12 questions. It takes you less than two minutes. You get a good idea of whether you’re a good fit now, whether you’re working toward it.

    And then we’re able to offer some follow up information to help them get on that path if they need more help. Secondly we always suggest that they incorporate their business or amend their business if they’re already incorporated to include that benefit company or benefit corporation box and that structure in their legal documents on their Secretary of States website.

    And then the questionnaire is 60 questions. Somebody goes through it, and our pricing is all based on the number of FTEs in a particular company. And as you could imagine, we, the majority are in our smallest fee range. And that’s five FTEs or less. And those questions are based on eight standards.

    And the eight standards are understanding the values of Benefit Corporation, what we call conscientious leadership diversity, equity, inclusion. Green practices, community engagement, customer service, strategic business practices, and work life, or what we call life balance. 60 questions based around those and it’s self-evaluating.

    And then once somebody’s done, we ask if they’re supporting documentation on why you gave yourself a particular score. To include that. And then we go through the process of not only scoring, but evaluating what are some quality steps that you might be able to take to improve your scores and here’s where you’re doing great work.

    And recently we’ve added a new written report then that follows that we hadn’t been doing that. Because of our, what we felt was a very low price point. But now we’ve added this not only in documentation, but in scoring and an infographic that shows a company leader what’s being done well and where can we improve and something they can refer to each year.

    And we do, speaking of each year, we do require our founding 20. Businesses. Our first 20 businesses ask that we bake in some real accountability, and that is the annual benefit report must be produced. That is pretty much a legal requirement in all 40 states. How did you improve people and planet, or that’s the simple word.

    There’s some more policy statement that talks about positive impact, positive material impact on people and planet. But and nobody gets re-certified in our committee until that report has been, not only created and, but it has to be published on that particular businesses website.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s super important. And you’re saying something that is so. Critical to remember is the state is requiring it, it’s, it is written in there and that means make it public. It can be on a website. And there are other organizations we know other verifications and certifications that are also saying Benefit report annually must be public.

    I find re-certifying annually to be. Something where you gotta brew a good pot of tea or something and sit down and just do it. You’ve made it so it can be saved and can go back to it. But I also find that I love having a sense to look back and look forward and retrench. Certification is usually the hardest because sometimes we don’t know what documents to prepare, and that’s where consultants and people like I come in.

    But also, once you’ve done it. The documentation doesn’t have to change. It needs to be updated, but the platforms created can be similar and it doesn’t have to feel like a second job. It can be part of the operations to keep documenting in those eight standards, and then you’re ready to prepare and in some ways, preparing for taxes annually.

    Feeds into this type of documentation because if you’re a company that’s tracking philanthropy volunteer hours, things of that nature, then you’ve got some of the documentation there anyway. And I think that’s where some people get scared and put off is they think that the tracking is gonna feel like a heavy load, but when it becomes.

    When it becomes I’m trying to find the right word for it, but when you have a system 

    And can create a system that works really well, it can be plugged into so many different things and you feel really good about it. But for companies that do have employees or to be able to share with partners, like to attract part partners in a supply.

    That’s also something that becomes really great to share and people start to find each other. 

    Yeah, so 

    I think what you’re doing has so many layers to it, that the assessment itself is one thing, but what it does for companies is many things. And that’s great to know and it has been updated. And tell us a little bit about your outreach too and how you’re being supported by and are supportive of the U of O students and others.

    Yeah that’s a bright spot too. That’s a really cool thing. 

    Tom Hering: It is a very bright spot. So I’ve been fortunate. So this is almost the end next week I think is the end of my fourth year of engaging with Allen Hall pr, which is a student run. PR organization with the University of Oregon, my alma mater, and I’ve had the privilege of working with a different student team the last four years who’ve helped me and BCFG with its social media and some great creative thinking to help me problem solve particularly when it comes to communication.

    About our community about our businesses, and it’s, I’m gonna do it again. I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be signing up for year five because it’s something that I get their creativity and their energy and their smarts, and they get a little bit of mentoring from me. But I’ve had some students on those teams that have gone on and are doing great things at very young ages at least in my perception.

    And it’s been a total delight and joy. They’re just really I think students today, the majority that work on these teams, they’re passionate and yet they’re really maxed on time on the time that they have because the majority of them are all working as well. They’re working part-time to get themselves through school.

    And, I was privileged to go to a time where I could work on a summer and make enough money to put myself through school. And that’s just not a realistic thing. So I even have I place even a higher value of what they bring because of that and because. They have been doing such good work for our community.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. And I see the products of that on your LinkedIn post. I know they’ve been creating some of those graphics. Yes. And that beautiful infographic that you create for the people that have certified, that becomes a beautiful marketing tool and something to put in a benefit report. But the highlighting that you’re doing of members and when the teams show up at the BCFG happy hours and when they do a survey.

    All these things are a huge part of the community that’s built through BCFG, and I’m very appreciative and I know a lot of other people are as well. So what makes you optimistic? 

    Tom Hering: Optimistic I think is pretty much, what I think I mentioned a little bit ago about just having meeting with the company leaders, these business owners.

    They’re the ones that truly make me the most optimistic. I see them firsthand. I’ve met them. Some screen to screen, but mostly face-to-face and what they’re doing and their commitment as leaders to do something that is very mission-driven. Even though they’re not necessarily nonprofits, but they are very mission-driven in how they approach their business.

    I recently certified a business in the last two weeks. That is doing some amazing work for teenage financial literacy, and I am just absolutely blown away by these two co-founders who. Found this deep need through one of the founder’s nephews as a matter of fact. And it’s being around people that wanna do good and not only wanna do good, but are doing good, Kim, that really give me this good, healthy dose of optimism and a world, at least from my viewpoint, that needs a whole lot of it right now.

    And that’s where I can find it for me for sure. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I thank you for that. Yeah, it’s, it, this is 2026 and people are having some challenges and, we find this network that we have in our community, but also see in other communities of mission-driven, values driven entrepreneurship. That there’s a lot, and that’s where I find my optimism is small, but collective is mighty and I think there’s a lot of good people.

    People are doing some really great things and you also help bring people together so that they can see it. And because of that, I mean I’ve been able to hire people and get jobs done with because I’ve met people through your organization and your networking, and I have an opportunity to really find out how they feel and how.

    They care about their employees. One was solar panels and it was a really rough time because of tariffs. And they were talking about the, the employees were talking about how they loved working for this company, power Northwest, that, and they’d been with other companies that probably would’ve laid them off, but.

    They, they kept their jobs, but the other thing I saw is they were empowered to be creative problem solvers and they really worked together and issues came up and they solved together. And I was able to observe it and they were great to be around and they did a phenomenal job. So I think that’s part of it too.

    It ripples down and it ripples up and it ripples through everything that companies do because when employees recognize it and feel happy and they say, yeah, we could go to a similar company anywhere, but we wouldn’t be treated like this. That’s just one example. And we have others. And you know who they are too.

    But some produce, food, some produce, services, some produce a variety of things. And collectively it really makes a difference in how we do our work, but also how we live our lives. 

    Tom Hering: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, it makes a real difference. I think that whole stakeholder’s approach versus a shareholder’s approach works wonders for everybody in a business across the board.

    And I think the one thing that, again, we see that is a very consistent marker of the leaders that are in our community is this idea. Not necessarily a new idea, but still a great one is servant leadership. They walk alongside their employees, not in front of them, and their team members and they’re all treated equally.

    And it is really refreshing and that’s why. Employees, team members stay together. They recognize that. And this whole, this example you just shared Kim about Power Northwest is, I didn’t, I wasn’t aware of that. It’s very impressive. And I believe that’s happened to a couple other companies recently that I’ve, recertified.

    So I’ve been hearing the same kind of story. It’s just how these leaders are built. It’s what’s in, their DNA. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely.

    Every once in a while somebody’ll say, oh, we’re not gonna recertify anymore for a variety of reasons, but we’re doing the work. What do you see and what are your thoughts about that?

    Tom Hering: Yeah. I think that’s a, it’s a, it’s an interesting question and certainly we’ve had, a good number of businesses that have chosen not to recertify with us. I think, my feeling is that. The mission of that particular business might have changed the profitability of that organization might have changed.

    And that has been probably the most, those are the two most common reasons why people haven’t recertified with BCFG. Now, I recently heard from a. Business that had been certified then did not recertify for two years, and now wanna be back and recertify. And I said absolutely. They said that they believe in our mission.

    We were helpful as a community. They’re still struggling a little bit, but they’re working out, their revenue scenario. And I always say particularly to to historically challenge communities, we do offer scholarships too. That means, there is no cost to go through our certification if there indeed is a financial challenge with that particular business. As long of course as they’re aligned and with the triple bottom line movement. So we try to do that as well. But overall, I think that the majority, we have businesses like you, Kim, that have been with us, eight, nine years now I think, and several as a matter of fact.

    I think what it help, what helps with businesses that continue to recertify is it, I was gonna mention as we were talking earlier. That a leader gets each year at the recertification while it at 60 questions seems pretty onerous to some people. I understand it, particularly if you’re a solopreneur, but the information that you glean from just going through that process, even if I’m not involved, that leader is able to recognize almost right off the bat, here are some things I need to be doing better.

    Let’s see what BCF GC is doing this. It’s this self-awareness of, wow, here’s a way I can improve my business with my team members. Here’s something that I’m missing. Or I haven’t thought about this particular grain practice. Why haven’t I looked into that? It is an ama It’s very enlightening.

    You’ve been through it and I know that you’ve discovered that yourself. And I think that’s the one thing that I keep telling people that even though I heard from one of our leaders and I, a solopreneur and rightfully so, just a week ago on, on how, she saw this questionnaire and thought, oh my gosh, 60 questions.

    Do I have time? And that’s the question. It’s not that they, that she didn’t believe in it, but did she have the time? And I said, here’s how to do it. Chunked this out. However, whatever guidance I could give her. But in the end I know that she will find some new things that will help her be a better purpose-driven leader and as a result, better purpose driven business, which I think is gonna be more attractive too.

    The, types of customers and prospective customers that she wants as part of her business. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I concur. And I think it also goes back to those statistics, and I’ve always done the older Nielsen 20, I think 20 14, 20 17, that said two thirds of consumers globally were willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company has good values.

    I’m paraphrasing. And around 2017, they said that 73% were millennials, and now you have the 2024 PricewaterhouseCoopers. Are justifying paying up to 10% more in the Deloitte, up to 24% more, and 94% of Gen Zs expect values driven. So having a verification helps all those percentages of people find you if you’re a company owner and also helps us find each other.

    When we wanna do business, ’cause we as business people are also consumers 

    Yes. Of 

    something either whether B2B or B2C. So having the proof points and that beautiful infographic, it can be enlightening for somebody who’s looking to do business with someone who’s has great values. So that’s one of the reasons why I personally am driven to recertify, is to keep current, to keep up to date.

    Also, because I like to know how things work and I help others do their certification. So I have a different motive. But I also have a motive for myself, and that is striving and being recognized. For that and what you have as an infographic and a badge that is becoming increasingly recognizable.

    And so all of this helps because consumerism is full of, we know this, millions of messages daily and how do we sort through it? So this is, gives people a way to, to cut through. And those percentages I think are very important. And, but I also don’t wanna dismiss that there are people who’ve been consumers longers.

    Baby boomers onwards, and a lot of those people have good values too, whether it’s originally or evolved over time. And people are also getting more data. And the more we know, the more we might seek to do something good or work with companies that are doing good and there are new innovations that didn’t exist back, didn’t give us choices.

    So having new choices also means we can shift and our values can be pointed in that direction to make choices. 

    Tom Hering: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So what else would you like to share? 

    Tom Hering: I just, I think what I would share maybe is a couple things, how people might be able to help me better listening help me move the needle a little bit more on this expanding this community.

    And I would say, the first and probably obvious one is maybe to tell someone about it. And particularly if you’re a small business owner listening who cares about the world they’re operating in, thinks about their team, their community, their carbon footprint, tell ’em a little bit about BCFG.

    I, being in the, my first two acts in the advertising world, word of mouth from Trusted Voices is still our most powerful growth engine, and I don’t think that’s ever gonna change. The second is maybe if you’re interested to champion certification as a standard.

    As you were saying earlier, we live in a world where consumers and partners increasingly and those stats from Pricewater House Coopers you know, and Deloitte increasingly, underscore that people wanna support businesses that mean what they say. And if you’re in a position to, to recommend vendors or choose choose certified benefit corporations or certified B Corps you know that they’ve been verified if you’re a journalist or an investor or a community leader, talk about certification, the way you talk about other quality standards and normalize this expectation of accountability.

    And then I guess again, maybe just as a little part A part B of the last, second point I just made there about championing certification is think about maybe being a certified member. And again, whether it’s through our community or through one of the other three communities in Oregon, or many of them are available throughout the United States.

    Do that. I just put a pitch for us is that we’re a Lean Oregon. Organization. We have an outsized mission. Every dollar, every relationship we bring in, goes directly into building the infrastructure for a more accountable econ economy. We don’t need everyone to do all three.

    We just need more people maybe to do one of those things. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Well said. How can people reach you? 

    Tom Hering: The best front door is obviously our website benefit corporations for good.com. I know it’s a mouthful. Everything lives there. You know how certification works who’s already part of our community.

    You can see the annual benefit reports of those that have been recertified. You know how to start a conversation about becoming a certified member. If you wanna stay connected with our movement, the. Best practices, member stories, policy updates tips and tricks.

    Sign up for our newsletter. It’s also available on the website. We make it worth your inbox. And, if you’re a small business owner who’s asking the right questions about what your business stands for I’d love to hear from you directly. You can reach out through the website.

    Our work really grows through conversation more than anything. I’m generally energized by every, small business leader, entrepreneur who’s ready to take the next step towards accountability. And then I’ll just say the one thing that we’ve just been building out is if you wanna even just learn more quickly.

    Our YouTube channel now is getting several shorts that have been posted. They’re usually one minute, and that’s at ben Kors for good.com. You can find us on the YouTube channel. So those are some ways that you certainly can reach us. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Very clever and I highly recommend the newsletter as well.

    You always have great tips and all sorts of things happening, and it’s for beyond Oregon. It’s a really solid, good monthly newsletter. Yes. 

    Tom Hering: Yeah. Yes. Appreciate 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: it. So thank you so much. And now for the final question, if you could have dinner with up to three other people living or deceased for a beautiful table of four, who would they be and why?

    Tom Hering: So this is, I’m smiling as I’m saying this because I, I thought about this more than I probably should admit, but I kept coming back to the same three people. And not because they’d agree with each other, because the tension would make for the most honest, important conversation I could imagine.

    And because I recently read what, I could probably say is the most important and memorable book I’ve ever read. It was the biography on Martin Luther King, Jr. And it’s a book called King by Jonathan eig. It was written in 2025, I believe, and it got the Pulitzer Prize. Dr.

    King understood something that most business leaders still haven’t absorbed, and that is that economic justice and moral justice are inseparable. His vision, the of the beloved community wasn’t just about civil rights, it was about building an economy where every individual, every person has dignity.

    That’s the North star of what we’re trying to do at BCFG. I’d want him, to push us on whether we’re being bold enough. Probably he’d say no. But the second seat would go to Yvonne Sheard the founder of Patag. And, most people who are aware of the B Corps community or of that particular organization, or both, know that he recently gave his entire company to a trusted, dedicated trust dedicated to fighting climate change.

    He’s the most radical practitioner, I think of exactly what benefit corporations certification is meant to protect. He’s also as people that are, familiar with him know he’s a reluctant entrepreneur who stumbled into purpose. The same way many of our members do. Not by following a framework work, but by following his conscious or conscience or values, I would say.

    So I’d wanna learn from him what he got right and what he’d do differently. And then the third seat’s gonna be probably a clank here. But this is the one people might raise an eyebrow as I said here. It goes to Milton Friedman. And so for those that are unfamiliar with him, he was the Nobel Prize winning economist who wrote the, the famous 1970 essay arguing that a corporation’s only social responsibility is to increase its profits.

    And that essay became the intellectual foundation for shareholder primacy, the ideology that we at BCFG is, essentially built to challenge. We were built to challenge that. So I’d invite him not to argue, but to listen because I think if Friedman were sitting at the table with Dr.

    King, with Yvonne Chouinard and with the evidence of what purpose-driven business actually produces for employees, for communities. For long-term value, he might be the most interesting person in the room to watch, change his mind. I think that dinner would be worth every minute. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think that would be amazing.

    You’ve really got me thinking there. Yeah. And the snarky side of me wants to say, and I’d love to video the whole thing, encapsulate it and put it on 60 minutes.

    Tom Hering: Maybe we could Yeah. Have Scott maybe get Scott Palley to introduce it too. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. Oh, well it is 2026. What are we gonna say? Yeah, Tom Hering you are a treasure. I also wanna thank you for. Just this the beauty and friendship you bring to everything. And a nod again to our friend Mary Anne Harmer, who co-founded with you and continues to be a friend to both of us and all things there.

    Thank you for everything. Thank you audience for listening. This is Kim Allchurch Flick. I appreciate you listening to the Mighty Measure. Please share it with friends and listen to other episodes because there’s a common thread running through this and I’m noticing it sometimes purely by accident, but there’s a lot of good out there and a lot of people doing great things to give us a lot of optimism.

    Thank you.

    This Episode’s Guest: Tom Hering

    Tom Hering headshot, smiling, in an office setting.

    Tom Hering is Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Benefit Corporations for Good (BCFG), an organization he launched in 2018 alongside Mary Anne Harmer to grow the Benefit Company movement across Oregon and North America. Under his leadership, BCFG has certified businesses in 13 states and one Canadian province, championing a triple bottom line of People, Planet, and Profit. He is the co-author of two books, Putting Soul Into Business: How the Benefit Corporation is Transforming American Business and 25 Building Blocks to Create a Conscientious Organization, and currently serves as a member of the advocacy action team for the Interfaith Alliance on Poverty. Tom holds a degree from the University of Oregon’s School of Journalism and Communication.

  • Building Trust, Representation, and Opportunity with Titonian Wallace Sr.

    Building Trust, Representation, and Opportunity with Titonian Wallace Sr.

    Titonian Wallace Sr., founder of Nesace Media, community leader, and the first Black chair of the Washington County Chamber of Commerce, joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about building trust, representation, and opportunity. 

    Wallace shares his upbringing in Benton Harbor, Michigan, his mother’s “never say you can’t” lesson, leaving the University of Michigan, and returning years later to earn a BA in Mass Media with a sociology minor and a marketing certificate, later creating a scholarship fund in Hillsboro. 

    He discusses chamber leadership, creating Hillsboro’s Juneteenth celebration, and stepping down to run for Hillsboro City Council while job hunting amid economic strain on small businesses. 

    Wallace highlights fear in Hillsboro’s Hispanic community due to immigration enforcement, urges communities of color to unite, and finds hope in youth activism and leadership. 

    He argues Oregon needs jobs, regional collaboration, and adaptation to economic shifts, noting service cuts and affordability pressures.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:13 Business Builders Connection

    02:11 Origin Story and Values

    05:41 College Detour and Comeback

    11:22 Chamber Leadership and City Run

    14:43 Community Challenges and Unity

    20:16 What Gives Hope

    23:03 Fixing Oregon Business Climate

    29:07 Call to Action and Self Care

    30:52 How to Reach Titonian

    31:40 Dinner Guests and Leadership

    35:21 Oregon Economy Shifts Epilogue

    40:03 Closing Thanks and Sign Off

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and this is designed to bring inspiration from a variety of individuals who are doing wonderful things in the world, and collectively it makes our world better. Today we have, Titonian Wallace Sr. From Nesace Media. Titonian Wallace Senior is a community leader, business owner and founder of Nesace Media, who has built much of his work around representation, trust, and economic opportunity.

    He became the first black chair of the Washington County Chamber of Commerce in its 129 year history and has helped grow black business membership through the Black Business Advisory Council. He also created Hillsboro Juneteenth celebration and has worked to connect business leadership with real community impact.

    His work is rooted in making sure people feel seen, supported, and able to participate in spaces that have not always felt open to them. Today we’re talking about building trust, representation, and opportunity through community leadership. Titonian welcome. It is a delight to have you here. 

    Titonian Wallace: Yeah. Thank you for having me here, Kim.

    It was great seeing you again. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes, we met because of organizations and small conferences, local business gatherings, and it’s been wonderful. And then through the small business development center, you were one of the teachers for the Business Builders program, and that was wonderful. I learned so much about your business acumen to 

    Titonian Wallace: that.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. 

    Titonian Wallace: Thank you. Yeah. And that was a great opportunity. I thank you for even offering that to me at the time, and I think. How long did I do it for? A year and a half or so. Year and 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: a half at least. Yeah, 

    Titonian Wallace: before I had to step back because. I was I guess volunteering for other roles, but I was gaining other leadership roles at the time that kind of took me away from that, plus running my business at the same time.

    But I highly enjoyed it and I hope all the businesses that went through the course and still likely still do to this day that they really got a benefit from that program. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, they did the feedback was terrific. And I see you as a multipotentialite. You’re one of these people that seems to be doing many things at once and doing them well.

    What is your origin story the inspiration and values that have brought you to this point? 

    Titonian Wallace: My origin story and what brought me here, my values at my, so for me, I am, I’m originally from Benton Harbor, Michigan. And then I lived in Topeka, Kansas before I came here. But at my core of who I am. I would say goes back to my, my upbringing and my mother, Sharon Wallace who raised me and my younger sister.

    I think one of the most profound things that she left on me that I carry to this day. And I try to share with my children and even other kids that I even mentor now. One of the strongest phrase she ever said to me that keeps me moving forward is never say you can’t. So I grew up not with that, believing that if I tried and did my best, there was nothing that I couldn’t do.

    So because of that, I don’t allow. Outside individuals to limit what they think of me or what I can and can’t do. You can’t do that. Only I can do that and I won’t do that. And so I thank my mother for that and I think our youth today need more of that to understand that. You are more than your situation and your circumstances.

    I grew up poor. I grew up in Benton Harbor, Michigan. A population I think may have been 14, 15, 13 to 15,000 at the time, predominantly black city often compared to your Flint, Michigan and your Detroit, Michigan, because of crime levels and everything like that. But I had a group of, a small group of friends.

    We grew up feeling like there’s more to life than this, than what we see here, where we’re from, and we don’t want this as for the rest of our lives. And we all fought hard to get out. I’ll tell you my from high school, my top 10 graduating class was a mixture of your nerds and your athletes.

    So we had geeks and athletes that were almost one unified circle. Different avenues and paths that we were taking. Some of us were using academics to get through school, others were using sports. But the unifying thing, the unifying message between all of us was, we’re gonna get out of here.

    And several of us did. And that doesn’t happen where I’m from. So to be able to do that and then to get to this point where I am, to where I am trying to make a difference really. I think resonates with people as well as you see when you can see yourself, when you know everyone struggles.

    Everyone comes from something somewhere. And most of us aren’t born with a silver spoon or a trust fund or a rich aunt and uncle that leaves you a large inheritance. We have to work for it. And I get the way the world is now, it seems like we’ve worked our butts off and we get nickels in return. So there, there’s a dynamic shift in the mentality of probably my generation and younger generations, even my kids and even those younger than them.

    To where we’re questioning that mentality of work hard, do good, you’ll get it because it seems like the American dream is no longer accessible by the normal, average person. So that’s my core. Benton Harbor, Michigan. I did go to, I, and I was the kid that did really well in school. I went to.

    What most people don’t know because it’s not on my resume, it’s not in my bio or anything because it’s, it was a part of my story that I had to learn to deal with almost a failure. So right out of high school, I did go to the University of Michigan. I majored in industrial operations Engineering.

    And I went for about three and a half years. Back in that time it was about a five year program, so I was a little over the midway point, but there were things in life that, I won’t go into too much details here, but I was taken out mentally and emotionally and that meant there was nothing left in me.

    And so that potential career path that I had went away. But I do, I will say that my love for education. Took me back to school when I was in Topeka, Kansas. An older adult, married three kids in the home, so we had a household of five. My wife went back to college first ’cause she was like me, a firstborn, overachiever, but didn’t finish.

    But her job that she had was really pushing her towards an accounting degree and she was loving it ’cause she was working for a tax firm at that time. So her and I made a, an agreement, a pact together, and that agreement was since your job, you have this job that’s pushing you towards this degree and you love it.

    Why don’t you go back to school first? I’ll pick up the slack here in the home, but you go to school, get your degree, your accounting degree, and when you finish, I’ll go back to, and I’ll go back and then I’ll get that degree that I felt it wasn’t gonna be engineering anymore.

    My passions had switched. And plus. I wasn’t sure if I was still that math as sharp math mathematically as scientifically as I was when I was younger. But plus I had a business in Topeka. I was trying to tailor my education to help further that business at the time as well.

    And so I ended up going back. My wife got her degree. The funny part with the story of how I actually started back. Was she finished, she got her degree, we celebrated, her family came down and all of that. And then it was time for me to start applying Washburn University where I was going to attend.

    And I hesitated and I continued to hesitate because in the back of my mind I remembered. I’m a student in high school, grade school, middle school, graduated fourth in my class from high school, blah, blah blah. Got a full tuition scholarship to the University of Michigan. But in the back of my mind, I remember something happened and I failed.

    At college once already, the University of Michigan time. So that put some, like for me it was, I think the hesitancy was like, do you really have it? Are you really as sharp? Are you who you were and used to be and say you are. And it, it put a hesitancy in my step of taking that next step to apply and get it done.

    And I don’t know why, because I’ve never hesitated like that before, but I think that that may have been my first bout with self-doubt, and that doesn’t happen. So that was the first and the biggest. So with that going on and me procrastinating of going back. I came home one day and my wife said, your FAFSA filled out.

    You need to finish the application for Washburn. And I was like, oh. She started the process for me. She put her foot in my butt and said, do it. And I did it, and I needed that. And I’ll tell you, my first semester at Washburn University, I got all A’s. I’m 30 something years old. I’m in this, I’m in class with these 19 year olds and these kids are in school talking about Cs, get degrees.

    And I’m like, in my mind, I felt God gave me a second chance to get what I lost and he’s not going to give me a third. And a C is not enough for me. And I got all A’s. And once I got that 4.0 that per, I was like, oh yeah, I’m back. Yeah. And, I breezed through Washburn as well. So I ended up graduating Bachelor of Arts and Mass Media with a minor in sociology.

    I graduated with a 3.9 GPA from college as well. But then I’m such a lifelong learner. I wanted some marketing credentials behind my name for the business that I had then at that time. But I didn’t want to go another four years. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to get a doctorate, so I was like, well, let me go get a marketing certificate.

    I can get that faster can get those credentials behind my name and show the potential clients that we were working with. Then that, yeah, I am a marketing professional as well, and so I went right back and it was. For me, it was invigorating to be able to start learning again and to then start applying it in the business that I had.

    So that’s my back journey, school journey. The roundabout of going to college right after school, not, right after high school, but then having about a 15 year break with life and wife, kids a divorce in there too. So there was a lot going on that. Prevented me from making that jump back into education, even though I loved it so much.

    And then with all of that being said, to this day, even now today, we, I have a black, I have a scholarship fund for students as well here in Hillsboro, Oregon. So that’s full circle for me. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh wow. What a story. And that brings us to now what are you doing now? 

    Titonian Wallace: Yeah. So now. I, and I know you’re aware of, so I had been the the first black chair of the Washington County Chamber of Commerce.

    But I have been involved with them. I joined the chamber. When I moved here, I started my business in the safe media. About 2016, I believe is when I started it, 20 16, 20 17. And I had a, I had previous experience with the Chamber of Commerce when I was in Topeka. Different experience. This one’s way better here.

    But I was aware that this is what. How you get your business out. You meet with like-minded individuals. After they get to know, like, and trust you, then potentially they become clients and all of that and so forth. But with all of that, I ended up being in a lot of leadership roles in the chamber over the last five years here.

    I recently stepped down from all of those roles on in December of 2025 because I am a. I decided to take the next step in leadership and impact, and decided that I’m running for Hillsboro City Council. But I also find myself in a situation to where I’m running for a council campaigning, but I’m also job hunting.

    The economy has negatively impacted a lot of small businesses, including my own, the ones that I talk to, not just on Main Street, those that work remotely or work from home but we are all being impacted and having to make tough decisions. And it’s not just within our businesses, it’s within our households and families.

    Costs are sky high, cost of living, inflation, interest rates gas, groceries, and it’s getting tough. And here where we are, it’s not just. Intel families that are filling and hurting from those lay from their layoffs. There’s regular families like mine that aren’t even intel related, that have been impacted by a layoff and a spouse having to take a job at a significant pay cut.

    A small business owner realizing. There’s not enough to help sustain the home from the business and then having to reenter the workforce. So those, that’s where I am now. I’m trying to balance running for office, potentially looking for employment, taking care of the mental wellbeing of my family as well during this time, and still wanting to continue to make a difference and an impact in the community where I live.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That is something that I see. Thank you for sharing that because we are in communities where it is getting rough. For some I, you and I are both surrounded by entrepreneurs and small businesses and seeing that not everyone is thriving as they had been in the past. And there have been some differences that have come on slowly and some that have.

    Come on. Like flipping a switch. Yeah. Particularly when it comes to consumer goods and things like that we know what’s happening and this is April of 2026. And we’re talking about Oregon, but also talking about a broader scope. And yet you, you do so much and running for office is something that I am in awe of people who do that.

    So congratulations. 

    Titonian Wallace: Oh, thank you. Thank 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: you. And sadly, I don’t live in your city, so I can’t vote for you, but I can certainly advocate. What do you see as in the community and what is. Additional obstacles and challenges that you see for yourself and those entrepreneurs and other people around you?

    Titonian Wallace: In the community right now we can’t talk about what’s impacting the community without initially discussing the federal administration’s immigration enforcement on the Hispanic community. Which is our community here in Hillsboro, Oregon. They account for up to almost 25% of the population here in Hillsboro.

    So what happens to them matters, and it should matter to all of us. And what we’re seeing from these families they’re in constant fear. And when I look at it, when I try to analyze these things myself. My analogy for this last year under the current administration, how it’s impacted all people is, I feel it’s put everyone in a fight or flight response 24 7 and that stress, tension, cortisol, angst, all of that.

    All the time. And especially for our underserved communities, our minority communities, our communities of color, whatev, however you label them personally. But right now, specifically our Hispanic community is hurting. The businesses are hurting. We are seeing individuals not show up because they’re afraid.

    They can be taken away. Their kids, their family, things like that happen. So that on the business level also bothers me, but that’s a large community issue as well. But with that, I think also there needs to be messaging to all communities of color that you all need to band together moving forward and put aside any excuse this language is, if it sounds harsh to some, but any idiotic or asinine.

    Racial or sta racist stereotypes that you have against other communities of color, you need to get rid of that because it’s not a matter of when they come for you, it’s a matter of when, not if they come for you, but when and then also if we don’t band together and lock arms together, the day will come when you look to your left and right and you have no allies.

    And that makes you the easier target. You see it now, one by one is how they attack us, other than with sweeping policies that are affecting education, especially for black and brown kids. The dismantling of the Department of Education. So that’s on that wider national level. But even on the state level, we have a state that’s not really doing enough to promote.

    Business friendliness. Our economy here and I don’t even wanna say the economy, the job market here is in dire consequences right now. We need something to, we need people and leaders in place that understand that you need jobs. To have the services that your cities, your county, and your state depend on.

    You need those property taxes. You need the the payroll taxes on the state level, property taxes here on the city level. So those are some things that I’m seeing holistically. But on the local level, what I would really want is for our local leaders to understand that we have more than one crisis going on at the same time.

    One is humanitarian, one is economic, and we need to address both to the best of our ability right now, and then put things in place to where in the future no one particular group of people should feel like this ever again. Ever. I’ve often say I can’t believe I’m in 2026 and have to deal with racism still at this level.

    And having it being encouraged from the federal government at such a systemic level so high that I feel advancement for people of color has been set back at least 30 years and is going to take more than one democratic administration to change this and get it back to what we thought we were almost good.

    I just I’m appalled that we’re here and I wanna do my part, but I don’t want to, I don’t wanna come off too preachy to people, but I’ll make my points, especially during my run for office and just let them know there, the only way we’re gonna get out of any of this is if we work together.

    Put aside your petty differences. Let’s learn to communicate and collaborate and believe the democratic process will work when good people are in place. ’cause right now, we I just feel our leadership, especially on the national level, all needs to be changed. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And you’re one of those good people.

    Thank you for running. You said a word that has always struck a nerve with me as being one of the most cruel, and that’s the word, stereotype because. When a sentence is started with those people or they, and encompassing an entire mass of individuals, most of whom are on the receiving end of a stereotype, are saying, that’s not me.

    I’m nothing like that. And these caricatures that, 

    Titonian Wallace: yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: create division between people are very cruel because most people are not the stereotype. And yet a stereotype is bestowed upon them by others, and it does become cruel and it does create these things we’ve seen. So thank you for being so candid about all of this.

    It’s super important. With that, what makes you optimistic?

    Titonian Wallace: The number one thing that make me more optimistic and this is, once again, it’s federal level, but here locally. The day when high school what? When? When high school kids in the city of Hillsboro walked out and protest against ice. That gave me hope because that showed me, there is some in the younger generation that are saying, enough is enough.

    Were tired of this. And now what they’re really doing and saying is, okay, adults, you need to do something now while. Because you are in power. You are the ones that can, but we’re going to continue this fight next too. So that gives me hope that there’s a generation of potential leaders that are being.

    Being made right now because of the situations that we’re in they’ll be sharpened, they’ll be hardened because of what we’re seeing, what they’re seeing happen to their friends and family and their neighbors and chiropractors dropping off their kids at preschool. Being snatched up and 5-year-old kids being taken to detention centers and people being killed across the country.

    But I also want others, I want. That gives me hope and optimism, but I want to take a step back. I also want people to realize this happened to black people in 2020, and I don’t want you to lose sight of that. We were the ones on the list. Then our Hispanic community is on the list now and there is some division about, well, who shows up for who?

    Show up for every community. Because we’re not, like I said, we’re not gonna make it through. We’re not gonna get to a better place without doing this together. But the kids that I’ve seen that did that walkout, that gave me, I smiled. That gave me hope. And then I think the other thing that gives me hope is I I attended a college and career fair.

    With I was at a booth that the Hillsboro Community Foundation had there with Madeline that works for Hillsboro Community Foundation and realizing that entire college and career fair was put together by the Hillsboro Youth Advisory Council, another group of high functioning kids making a difference, not just for themselves.

    Before an entire graduating class from the city of Hillsboro, that gives me hope. There, there are kids that care that wanna see students like them reach their dreams, whatever path that may be, whether it’s academic or vocational. And I love that. I think between the high school walkout and being a part of that college and career fair create put on by young men and women.

    That gives me hope. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you for sharing that. What gives you hope for entrepreneurs and businesses? Is there anything else that 

    Titonian Wallace: in the state of Oregon that, oh, Kim, a lot has to change. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    Titonian Wallace: And that it has to come from the state level and we haven’t seen it. The one thing that gives me hope.

    Is that I know that there are leaders in place now across jurisdictions or that are running for certain offices that, and hopefully will be in those positions that have made it clear that they are open to dialogue across these jurisdictions. To do what we can to try to make the job market the economy better for all of us as a whole, because they recognize what I’m saying, what I’m saying on the social level about we need to work together.

    That applies on this governmental level as well, whether you’re city, county, region so all of those entities. I want, I’m hopeful that there are good leaders. Stepping up and wanting to step into these roles, and they’re willing to have the conversations, but not just have the conversations collaborate and get away from the negativity that’s in politics and realizing we’re here to do work for the people to make things better for them.

    And I’m not a politician, right, but I feel like. I had the, I had an opportunity while being a part of the Chamber for so many years to have an impact on not just the 800 business member organization, but on a city. Without being an elected official yet and seeing that impact. And that’s why I’m so freaking driven to want to continue doing it.

    When you see the good impact and the other people that then take it and do good work as well, that’s infectious. And it, it can drive you to, to say, well, I’m gonna keep doing good work until the city says no. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. An impact without being a politician, that means all of us can do something. 

    Titonian Wallace: Any, you have to do it.

    Here’s what I’ll say, and I, it is not profound, but we as individuals, and that’s all of us right now, no one can sit back and say, what are they going to do about this? What are they going to do to change this? Because right now, the date the they is you, the date the they is you and I, we are the ones that have to.

    And I’m not gonna say they is everyone. ’cause there are some, the radicals we’re I’m done. We’re done. And that’s both sides we’re done with that. But the common sense, common good work for the majority, not the minority outside voices that just happen to be the loudest. That’s where we are now.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it seems also that business sustainability is a nonpartisan issue. It should be that having businesses be strong, having businesses where people can support their families, and Oregon is one of those states. Where the collectivity of small business is the economic engine of the state. And that’s built.

    Oregon founders said that Oregon in Oregon consumer goods is to Oregon, what tech is to Silicon Valley. And thinking of it that way in the collective matters, so the individual health of, and sustainability of every single business. Matters collectively, regardless of how people think politically.

    Titonian Wallace: Yeah. And it matters on so many levels because that’s just the start, right? Of course when you talk about business, you have to talk about land which here, the laws kind are very restrictive on what we can and can’t do. But what a number that fascinated me that I learned early 20 20, 20 25.

    That I don’t think is out there enough in messaging is when you talk about the development of the land in Oregon. Before we try to get down to Hillsboro itself, only 3% of the land in Oregon is developed or populated 3%. That means there’s 97% open. Maybe room to grow. What if we only needed to get to 7% to get our economy where it needs to be?

    Then that means we still have 93% of the great air, great water the wonderful views, the beauty. That we so value and we improve the standard of livability because now we can afford the services that we need. We’re in a position now to where I think people, I want the general public to realize you’re we’re likely about to see trickle down economics work, meaning, and it’s never get, make the money at the top and it trickles down.

    I’m talking about the deficits. You’re gonna see that finally work because the state is nearing what near a billion dollar deficit they’re gonna have to do. Cuts. Counties are going to eventually have to do cuts and cities are eventually gonna have to do cuts, and then you’re gonna see degradation of services.

    Maybe that’ll start waking up some individuals to realize we need jobs. We, we absolutely need it. And families are hurting and this is how things are paid for in this state. So things would have to change on the state level drastically. But if it doesn’t, I believe regional coalitions need to get stronger in inter city Coalitions need to get stronger.

    We need to have those conversations about. What can we do to shore up our economies as neighbors because the city isn’t doing us any because the state isn’t doing us any favors right now. What can we do together collectively? What can we do across counties? What can we do regionally include metro in that conversation as well?

    So that’s where my thought is. I don’t think we can get out of any of this used go by you, the old methods. Stand by trying to go it alone as single jurisdictions. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. Exclamation point. That’s so profound. Is there anything else you’d like to share? 

    Titonian Wallace: Let’s see. I don’t know. What did I miss?

    Anything? With everything that’s going on. I just, I would just say I want business. Business is good, not just for the economy is good for standard of livability. It’s good for neighborhoods, it’s good for communities it’s great for schools, and which is another thing that, that really resonates with me.

    I also sit on the Hillsboro School Board bond development committee for 2026. So we’re in the middle of that, going back to the people asking for money for schools. But I think that’s very important and that’s something that I would never not support. Right on, right alongside libraries, public safety and school education and workforce development, and those things that we need to do.

    So I, I would say, I know it’s hard to stay positive now, but lean on your family, friends, and neighbors. Find the good that’s around, maybe turn the news off a day or two. I’ve had to do that. I’m an avid news reader. Most, a lot of other people, they may read books. I read news, knowledge, information data.

    That’s what I do. I don’t just read for fun. Sometimes the news can be very, depressing. How many wars are popping up? How many the criminal aspect of the government that we’re seeing? I’m right there with you. I’m in the fight. I want you all to join the fight, speak up.

    What we’re living through right now is not the reality that I hope the majority of us wanted or expected. Let’s do what we can to get back to some sense of normalcy is what I would say. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes, indeed. I appreciate that. How can people reach you? 

    Titonian Wallace: Yeah, so I can be reached. You can reach me. My, my business is Nesace Media, which is a digital marketing agency.

    It was full service, but I think I’m pulling certain services out during this time that I’m even going through in my personal business. I do still take on clients but you can reach me via go to the website at NeaseMedia.com. That’s NesaceMedia.com. You can email me at TWallace@NesaseMedia.com. Either one of those methods will work. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. Thank you so much. This is a conversation that can and should be ongoing and I really appreciate all the points you’ve mentioned so far. It is a important futuristic looking. Conversation to be had, and I appreciate all the points you’ve mentioned.

    The final question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or deceased up to three people, so you have a nice table of four, three, or two, who would they be and why? 

    Titonian Wallace: Okay, so given it a little thought, I think the two, the one alive person I would want. So I have dinner with is Barack Obama, president Barack Obama.

    The reason why ’cause that he is recent history and to me he is what an exceptional leader looks like and acts like and behaves like compared to what we’re seeing, and that’s why. Likely he’s constantly attacked because of those differences. Because when you talk about the best of the best, and he may not have been the best president, but normalcy empathy, how he treat and how regular individuals felt when they mentioned him, saw him, got to shake his hand or meet him.

    That’s an impactful leader. That’s that’s someone that resonates across cultural aisles. Generational. He has something in him that I probably need to learn. So I would love to sit down and pick his brain, especially if I’m going on a political route. Like I’m not going to be like you. I’m a I’m my own person.

    I’m really straight up and down, straightforward, speak my mind, speak my peace. But I do it from a aspect of I take data, knowledge, information, pros and cons, evaluate, then make a decision, but I’m decisive and we move forward if it works. We do what we, if it doesn’t, we go back and rebound. But I think he would he had the pulse of the people during his time in office and the hope that he helped invigorate in a nation.

    Some of that needs to come back. And I don’t know how. Because we’re so divided self-inflicted, I like to add as well based on the current government. So he would be one that I was like, what would you do to get us back to something that’s normal to where we all can work together, pick his brain on tho on those levels.

    But then just how his rise how he still maintains a public persona. He is still well loved out of office right now. And that’s something the current president can’t stand to. So I would love to sit down with president Obama, the second person. I would sit down with Albert Einstein just because I’m a math and science nerd, and nowhere near that genius level that, that he was.

    But God, wouldn’t it be fascinating to sit and listen to that mind, speak to you in person? I think it would just blow me away pro I probably wouldn’t understand much. Right. It depending on if he gets into, well, I’ll understand a little bit about the theory of relativity because like math and science was my thing.

    But he can go into some, I don’t wanna say some abstract concepts that I probably haven’t even thought about, and that would be a, a very. Intellectually stimulating conversation and an attempt to learn from a real genius, right? That, so he would be the other, and I may have another one, but I need time to think about it.

    So those would be the two that, different ends of the spectrum, different purposes, but they both fit who I am and what I would like to know, learn, do, and the type of individuals I would love to be around. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think that’s a fascinating dinner table. 

    Titonian Wallace: I don’t know if you’re gonna have anybody else ever say those two together, but that works for me.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Good for you. It’s your table.

    So a bit of an epilogue. We were having a discussion about history of Oregon, and I mentioned that when I moved into Oregon back in the early nineties and had a job where I traveled a lot, I drove through small communities, large cities, and observed that it was an era where a lot of people were unemployed because the timber industry shifted and.

    We were talking about our observations of how the economies have shifted through time.

    Titonian Wallace: And that was, as you know, it led me into into my talk, which I have had on my mind here for a while, and something that I think I would have to try to vocalize to, to the general public.

    I, what I feel is that. The general public may not be fully aware of the changes in the economy that has happened over time, even here in the state of Oregon, and hit City of Hillsboro. I think I was also mentioning how, some individuals have that nostalgia of what it was and wanting it to remain that what remain the same.

    But there are things that happen around us that dictate. Change and growth are necessary, and we’re in one of those times right now, and I related it back to, as the economy of this state in the past. I don’t have the years at the, in the top of my head before 80 something I would believe.

    Was the timber industry is what, what led the economy in the state of Oregon and the surrounding cities and whatnot. And then now after, I believe you were mentioning when you came, was it 85 when Nike was a little smaller? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    Titonian Wallace: When you came here. And I’m not sure how big Intel was yet, but. During the switch, then we switched.

    We became the silicon forest here which is another switch in the economy from the timber industry to advanced manufacturing in the semiconductor industry. And that required change, new jobs and growth. We are in another shift right now. Do generally caused by AI and advancements in technology and GPU usage and all of that, and energy storage and usage and things like that.

    But we’re in that, we’re in another change now to where we have to be able to adapt to what this new economy is going to look like if we’re going thrive and create the jobs that are needed for families to be able to stay. Here we are. The population in Oregon is stagnating or if not declining from the last study, if that.

    I remember reading there, there wasn’t as many transplants such as myself moving in but more moving out, especially from counties with high taxes and whatnot. There’s things that we need to be able to do and talk to and speak to the general public. These shifts in the economy are almost existential crises that we need to address.

    Quicker than what we have. And I believe we’re at a point now to where we should have been doing something four to five years ago to help us now because we lost 3000 something jobs from Intel in 2025. We lost a Edwards vacuum. Part of that, that supply chain, if I look at the state, we lost a Dutch bros moved to Arizona because we are no longer competitive.

    That means we’re going to, we’re losing jobs and it’s affecting all of us. So I hope, my hope is that people start seeing, like the shift in the economy dictates the things that we need to do to try to help our overall economic health. And we need to really consider what’s next in order for us to continue to thrive.

    Now, if we do nothing, you will see the cost for. Cuts. And I’m not just talking about just budget cuts, I’m talking about job cuts, cuts to critical key services that your city, your county, your state, depends on. You will start seeing that and sometimes I wonder, does our local population need to see Hillsboro begin to fall on that?

    That list of best places to live in America? Will you get it when we start falling down? And it’s because of the economy and the lack of jobs. The lack of op the lack of affordability. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. 

    Titonian Wallace: How starting at 600,000 is not affordable, so that’s why I believe they’re moving more to dense construction to where more apartments is here in Hillsboro will be built over single family homes.

    Like it may not be an option Now. So yeah, so that’s what we talked on stepped on 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and very realistic. 

    Titonian Wallace: Yeah.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Titonian Wallace, Sr. Thank you so much for your time and to all the listeners, thank you for your time as well. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast, and Mighty Measure impacts coaching in support of. Impact driven businesses.

    Thank you all so much. Have a great day. 

    Titonian Wallace: Thank you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Bye-bye.

    This Episode’s Guest: Titonian Wallace Sr.

    Titonian Wallace Sr. headshot. Smiling and standing outside with a building in the background.

    Titonian Wallace Sr. is a community leader, business owner, and founder of Nesace Media who has built much of his work around representation, trust, and economic opportunity. He became the first Black Chair of the Washington County Chamber of Commerce in its 129-year history and helped grow Black business membership through the Black Advisory Business Council. He also created Hillsboro’s Juneteenth celebration and has worked to connect business leadership with real community impact. His work is rooted in making sure people feel seen, supported, and able to participate in spaces that have not always felt open to them.

  • Good Groceries, Farm-to-School, and Supporting Small Farmers with Kristy Athens

    Good Groceries, Farm-to-School, and Supporting Small Farmers with Kristy Athens

    Kristy Athens of Good Groceries in Wallowa County, Eastern Oregon, joins Kim Allchurch Flick.

    Athens recounts her path from generalist writer to food-systems specialist, including moving to rural White Salmon, writing “Get Your Pitchfork On,” earning an MS in Food Systems and Society, and launching a local gift-box business that evolved into Good Groceries, rebranded in 2024.

    She describes Eastern Oregon’s short growing season and dominance of large-scale commodity agriculture, and how most residents rely on low-priced corporate groceries.

    Good Groceries has grown yearly since 2020, prioritizing paying small farmers while acknowledging higher prices by donating $1 per sale to food pantries and accepting SNAP with Double Up Food Bucks.

    Athens also supports local procurement as a liaison for the Oregon Farm to School Network, discusses pragmatic views on organic and soil care, notes logistical challenges of rural delivery, and urges listeners to buy from local food hubs, CSAs, farm stands, and farmers markets first—“Buy local is not a drill.”

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:15 Kristy’s Rural Journey

    03:18 Food Systems Wake Up Call

    04:07 Launching Good Groceries

    05:55 Eastern Oregon Growing Reality

    08:01 Cheap Food Culture

    09:10 Food Hub Model and Mission

    13:10 SNAP and Access Efforts

    14:10 Farm to School Connections

    15:41 Organic vs Local Nuance

    18:22 Land Stewardship and Awareness

    20:14 Logistics and Scaling Challenges

    23:08 What Keeps Her Hopeful

    24:01 Buy Local Is Not a Drill

    27:49 Dinner Guests and Wrap Up

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. Welcome to the podcast. This is Kim Allchurch Flick. And I’m so happy to be here with Kristy Athens of good groceries. Kristy has an MS in Food Systems and Society from Marylhurst University and is the author of Get Your Pitchfork on The Real Dirt On Country Living.

    She has worked in rural minority economic development for decades, currently connecting Eastern Oregon farmers and school districts as the procurement liaison for the Oregon Farm to School Network and serving for a number of years on the Wallowa County Farmers. Market board. Kristy moved to Wallowa County in 2013 and before that lived in western Oregon, Washington, and the upper Midwest in her spare time, ha ha ha.

    She manages Pitchfork Garden with her spouse, makes collage art, and plays songs on fiddle and electric base. Today we’re gonna talk about how Bilocal is not a drill. Kristy, I’m so excited to have you here. thank you Kim, so much for having me. Thank you. And the Wallowas are beautiful. You live in an amazing place in eastern Oregon.

    And curious, what has been your life journey and inspirations that brought you to the current moment? I. 

    Kristy Athens: I would love to say that it is a linear path, but I don’t think that’s the case. I started out as a writer and as a generalist. I wrote about lots of different industries and, after doing that for oh gosh, probably 15 years. I wanted, I decided I wanted to specialize and around that time my spouse, Mike and I moved from City Life. We had grown up in the Midwest, in Minneapolis, and then we moved to Portland in 1995 and we were looking for something a little more rural. We would go out and hike in the gorge and, fell in love with that area and thought, geez.

    Seeing all these houses on the sides of the road, it’s like, how do these people live here? What are they doing? And so we moved out to white Salmon Washington in 2003 and, that’s how the book Get Your Pitchfork on came about. I learned a lot of lessons not having lived in a rural community.

    There are lots of cultural lessons I learned as well as, how to work the land and that kind of thing. And so I thought other urban people might like a guide to moving to a real place. And when I started doing the research, it was a lot based on my experience, but when I was doing research for that, I was learning more about agriculture and learning nuances like scale and farming methods and different markets and different philosophies about agriculture.

    And that sort of piqued my interest in. In agriculture writ large, but also specifically about small farms because I talked to a few small farmers and one of my friends had also started a farm, moved to the area around the same time as I, and just learning how. Not profitable. That was really surprised me.

    And so I started to get interested in that. And around that time I learned of a brand new master’s program that was at Meryl Hurst University. It was called Food Systems in Society. And I had not yet done a master’s program. And. Finally, I was interested in doing one, and so I joined the first cohort of that in 2013.

    And so it’s a social science degree, so I learned about what are called in quotes, externalities, which means all of the sort of very serious side effects of industrial scale agriculture. Including land grabs and environmental degradation and human rights abuses. And by then I had moved to an even more rural area.

    So in Wallowa County, Oregon where we are now. And I was, so now not only am I learning about in how agriculture works, but I’m learning about rural economies and I originally started a gift box business using the different things that people out here make carb wooden and spoons and different value added food products and things like that.

    And I also, as you mentioned, join the farmer’s market board. And after a couple years of doing the gift boxes, some of the farmers came to me and asked if I would do something like what I was doing for the artist, for the. For the farmers. And I said yeah, that’s what I should be doing anyway so I launched I had a couple of them help me, be on an advisory board and start what is now called good groceries.

    Originally the original gift box business was called Genuine Wallowa County, and then the food delivery was called Genuine Wallowa County Provisions. And then I sold off the gift box piece to another local person and then so I could focus on the food. And so I rebranded the food delivery to good groceries in 2024.

    So that’s my direct line to this position. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. You’ve learned so much along the way, and I’m really intrigued in what have been your impressions through time about learning about agriculture and the factory farming side. And also what you’re deeply in now is more the rural local soil carrying side and what are you seeing around you and how are people responding to those differences? 

    Kristy Athens: This area. So first of all Eastern Oregon is a very different growing climate from Western Oregon. I felt like when I lived in St. John’s in Portland, I could throw a candy wrap around the ground and something would grow out of it.

    But out here we have real winter, although we aren’t really having it this year, but that’s another story. We have a very limited growing season for things like tomatoes and basil, and we can have a frost any night of the year. In the middle of summer it can happen. Growing what are called specialty crops, which means everything that’s interesting, all the fruits and vegetables.

    Things that as opposed to commodity crops, which are your wheat and liquid milk and things are sold on a grand scale. So specialty crops are hard to grow out here. The soil is actually good. Unlike a lot of Eastern Oregon we have. Because of the way the mountains are shaped.

    We have more bunch grass than sagebrush and so we have a little bit more moisture. So we have really good soil, but it’s just we’re enterprise is at about 4,200 feet and elevation. And it’s just, it’s harder to grow things here. And just the, climate in agriculture the work that was done over the 20th century to have everything consolidated and and industrialized yeah. Everything out here has been industrial level. So people grow, hundreds of acres of wheat, hundreds of acres of grass hay and raise a lot of cattle out here. Because the land even though the soil could support.

    Different crops, the climate and the season can’t really support them very well. Yeah, so it’s, it’s just like everywhere in the United States, most of the agriculture up here is a large scale

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and what has been the need in the community and some of the solutions with with that climate. 

    Kristy Athens: Most people get their food from a large corporate source. We have one corporate grocery store in our county. And then people travel to others in different areas. I know people will try, will travel two hours to go to Costco in Lewiston.

    They’ll drive to La Grande to go to one of the big box stores there. People in Northeast Oregon, or I different from people anywhere else, most of them are by necessity looking for the lowest price of their food. And, you’ve seen it in news headlines. And I remember even in junior high school there being week or so that we spent in social studies class talking about food system. But every, the whole focus of it was, calculating the cost per ounce of something. And, getting the best deal was definitely the focus. And I think it’s been, we’ve been hardwired for a long time that the cheapest food is the goal.

    And so I’ve got my work cut out for me 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. So how is Good groceries doing and how does it fit into these systems? 

    Kristy Athens: It’s going well. As far as growth, it’s the year over year growth. So again, it started in 20. 20. And so I’m closing in on my sixth year. And the year over year growth has been there every year.

    It’s grown every year. But it’s a tiny drop in the bucket of actually feeding people. As I did with the gift boxes, the goal was to create another revenue stream for local people. Here, it’s hard to live out here. People think that things are cheaper in rural places, and that’s not true.

    I think if anything it’s more expensive because of scarcity and, and the, and especially the traveling, that one must due in order to get things or, ordering things that are shipped to you. There’s just a lot of extra and having to drive everywhere. I live four miles from town.

    That’s a long walk. So there’s there are more expenses I think for rural living, but I I have a lot of, colleagues who are doing similar work around the state and around the country. And they, it’s really interesting. Food hubs are approached in from many different directions and they serve many different purposes with different organizations.

    And so what I mean by that is a lot of organizations are. For-profits, a lot of them are nonprofits. And so the food hub in a lot of cases, is a one component of many programs within a nonprofit. Some of them are farmer co-ops. Most of those developed during COVID when they were trying to figure out another way to sell their food when farmer’s markets and other things were closed.

    And so a lot. And then there’s that piece of it, and then. People also come at it from different mission bases. And what I mean by that is a lot of people are looking at food justice on the part of the eater. And which is incredibly important and feeds into that larger conversation of of income inequities that have developed over the last 50 years as well as the industrial agriculture trends that we were talking about earlier.

    But my my focus has been on the farmers because there are so few. Farmers generally. It’s a few, it’s a handful of farmers that run a lot of land out here, and then there are just a very small number of small farms, on 10 or five acres or less. A lot of them are just backyard garden kind of farms.

    We don’t have the big market farms that you have in the Willamette Valley. But I don’t wanna lose those. And my focus has been pay the farmers what they need to make this worthwhile. And in our current capitalists model, it’s really hard to make those two things. Work at the same time.

    Food justice for eaters and income equity for farmers without there being some grant support in the middle. And because I don’t function as a nonprofit, even though I do function as a benefit company which we can talk about as well, but that, that basically is a commitment to focus on the environment and and social justice as well as profit.

    So even though my business is a for-profit, profit is not the main focus. So yeah, so I’ve been focused on paying my farmers and I, in order to. I’m very aware of the fact that in some cases, not all cases, but in some cases, that results in my prices being higher than in a grocery store.

    And to try to compensate for that, I donate a dollar of every sale to the local food pantries. As well as other community giving things, but that in particular. Is it an intention to acknowledge the fact that the pricing, because I’m supporting the farmers, the pricing might be out of reach for some people.

    I also went to the trouble to be able to take snap payments, which if you’ve ever worked with USDA is a huge hassle, but it was also important to me to be able to do that as well. And on now I just just starting in January farmer’s Market Fund in Oregon is supporting my snap payments with double up food bucks.

    So the people who do use Oregon EBT card to buy their groceries at groceries can get half off of their Oregon grown produce. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s so incredible. I’m curious also about your connection to the schools where a lot of food flows through public schools.

    And what can you tell us about that?

    Kristy Athens: So I do some work on a contract basis with Oregon Farm to School Network. And so I am working with the schools to, to make sure that they take advantage of state funds that are allocated through the Department of Education to school districts to purchase local food for their for their cafeterias.

    And good groceries does not do any wholesale sales. For that same reason that because I’m paying most of the money up to 80% of the retail price goes to the farmer. So there’s no room for me to do any wholesale. With the current model that I have I might, you know, try and work out a different situation in the future, but at this present time, I just sell directly to consumers.

    But I do work as a liaison and so the school districts and the farmers are still making their own contracts with each other, but I’m there to help them find each other. If they have questions about how the program works, I can answer those things like that. But it’s a great opportunity for local schools to support their neighbors, and, in a lot of cases, the kids of the farmers are in the school makes a lot of sense.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And for the kids’ health and variety of things. And can you share with us your thoughts about the environmental piece of local farming and what you’ve learned about the differences between large factory. Farming and more local. 

    Kristy Athens: It’s an interesting topic. It’s pro, it probably could be its own topic.

    I know we have we don’t have all day to talk, but it is a rich topic and I do think that I do think that it. Is, yeah, it’s something that, it’s something that people should look into from various angles, I guess I would say. And the reason I say that is there are a lot of farmers out here who use organic practices who are not interested in certifying.

    And so for good groceries, I do not require organic certification. And I, I’m, I guess I’m a pragmatist. I think that I understand why chemicals are used sometimes and I also also understand that the word organic has become a bit of a it has. There are realities to organic that a lot of people are not aware of or don’t want to know about.

    ‘Cause there are lots of chemicals that are used in organic farming, especially in industrial organic farming. Personally I would rather eat food from a small non-certified farm then. Industrial organic that you get at a corporate grocery store. That’s my personal my personal preference.

    I, I think that all organic is good. But I do think it’s become a bit of a panacea for some folks. And and I’ll leave it there ’cause it is its own topic for sure. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think there’s another podcast coming up at some point, but we can definitely, I have to get more than 

    Kristy Athens: me on it.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And it’s important. And thank you for that. And I also know that in your area there’s a a ranch that is Regener certified and concerned about soil health. So it seems like in the region there are some people who are really looking at the environmental piece. Yeah, from soil upward and it doesn’t always have to be small.

    Kristy Athens: I would say that all farmers care about soil. It’s just some farmers have a different view of the impact of of traditional agricultural practices. I don’t think that there are farmers that don’t care about soil. I just think that they yeah, they just have a different approach. But yeah.

    I don’t think it was because of a lack of care. I think it’s just a different approach. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. And I sense. While it still feels small scale because of things like films like Kiss the Ground, biggest Little Farm, common Ground, those types of films that are talking about agriculture, reaching people that.

    Many of whom never considered where food comes from. And that learning can help move needles of awareness. And I’m wondering what you’re seeing in terms of that awareness of the consumers and awarenesses of the farmers as time goes by. 

    Kristy Athens: As far, if I look at my customer base it’s definitely a lot of people who have moved here from somewhere else who maybe brought their value system with them and also brought a job with them that enables them to be a good groceries customer.

    Yeah. Definitely people everyone who lives in Wallowa County is very, very proud of living here and want to protect it. For example, we’ve had a lot, we have a, Wallowa Land Trust has done a lot of work to preserve. Some lands near the wall Lake. There’s also been some land that’s been returned to the Nez Perce tribe, or oo as the original inhabitants of this area.

    There’s been a great, also the Land Trust has done some great work to work with local ranchers to invite the Nimiipuu. Back here to dig canvas route and do other gatherings that they used to, that they’ve traditionally done in this area. Yeah, again, I don’t think, I don’t think that the love of the land has changed.

    I think maybe some of the processes, people are re reexamining some of the processes. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that’s good. What are some of the obstacles and challenges for you? 

    Kristy Athens: Oh gosh. Where should I start? I mean on the really pinpoint on the ground I have a. Two wheel drive cargo van that has a refrigeration unit in the back and which is great for summertime, but it is impossible.

    Not impossible, but very, very difficult and somewhat dangerous to take. If I because as I mentioned, it’s hard to grow food in Wallowa County, so a lot of the food that I sell is not grown in Wallowa County. That was one of the reasons that I changed the name. So I get a lot of food from the neighboring county, which is Union County.

    That’s where La Grande is located. And then I also get a lot of produce and other food and some really great value added products from two food hubs in Washington. One is in Walla Walla, which is two hours away and one is Puget Sound Food Hub. And they deliver. Orders to Walla if food hub and then I go to Walla Walla and pick up the whole thing and bring it back.

    So I have access to some amazing cheese some kelp snack chips and just all kinds of cool things that I would not be able to carry if I were just relying on our region. And also to get to Walla Walla, I have to go through the Blue Mountains. And in the wintertime, taking a two-wheel drive van over a mountain pass is terrifying, even with studded tires.

    So I have practical limitations like that. I just got a grant slash loan to purchase a four wheel drive van, and I’m very excited about that. And so there’s, yeah, so there’s lots of logistical challenges in that regard. There’s also the challenge of this being a very sparsely populated county.

    There’s 3,500 square miles and 7,500 people. That necessitate has necessitated me moving into, and I am just going to do this next week launch into a weekly delivery to Union County. And so that’s terrific. But that requires an hour plus drive also. So there’s just, there’s a lot of driving.

    The the people who run benefit corporations for good, which is my B company. Certifier, are always pressing me to get an electric van, which I would love to do, but it either needs to be refrigerated or have four wheel drive. So there are those kind of realities at this moment.

    Hopefully that technology will catch up with the need. But yeah, so there’s just lots of challenges, logistical challenges I would say. And then obviously the situation with it just being a short season and hard to grow a variety of crops here. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh indeed. And what makes you optimistic?

    Kristy Athens: Lots of things. A lot of my existing customers are people who are new to the area. They tend to be in their thirties and they are unwilling to throw their ethics under the bus just for convenience or other considerate air price or anything else.

    They make me optimistic. They are great supporters. They’re super excited about this. And they, they’re telling their friends. They’re making a point of it. So that’s been really great. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I really like that thought. Unwilling to throw their ethics under the bus and hopefully all of us how can people reach you?

    That’s easy. Just go to good groceries.shop.

    And is there anything else you’d like to share? Also, thinking about the people that aren’t in the county, but in terms of overall thoughts about how to select food and some of the considerations going to a store. What are some key differences of making a selection that can help us all not throw our ethics under the bus?

    Kristy Athens: For a lot of people, we need in income equality for people to be able to to use that old phrase, vote with your fork. Not a lot of people don’t have as many votes as others, and I definitely don’t want to suggest that if people are buying from large grocery stores that they don’t have ethics.

    It’s, there, there’s a lot to fix. I used to do just as an aside, I used to do a community con, lead a community conversation with Oregon humanities called good food, bad food. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with the conversation project, but it’s it’s not a lecture.

    It’s a conversation. And so we would all be talking, I would, seed the conversation with various aspects of the food system and then we would talk about them. But one of them was that, during the Reagan administration the Emergency Food Assistance Program was developed TFA and it’s still called TFAP or no, it was originally, I just gave away the punchline.

    Originally it was temporary Emergency Food Assistance program, and eventually they just changed the name to the. Emergency Food assistance program because wage inequality has been going on for decades. And eventually it became clear that people are never not in an emergency situation anymore, a lot of people.

    I don’t wanna judge anybody who doesn’t shop at good groceries or any other local farm stand. And there are, I wanna point. Farm stand or food hubs all over the state. So wherever you live in Oregon you can probably find a food hub where you live. But yeah, I think the thing I want to people to take away, despite what I just said, is that, and this is the title of our little program here.

    Buy Local Is Not a Drill. If you can. Find a food hub. Find a CSA, find a farmer’s market. Find a farm stand and go there first. You can always fill in the rest of your list somewhere else, but first buy from your neighbors. Because once if we lose all of our farms. They’re not, if we put buildings and data centers on all of our farmland it’s not gonna come back for a really, really, really long time.

    I don’t think, I think looking at the, our current global situation, I don’t, I think everyone can agree that importing food is not such a great idea or needing, more importantly needing to import it. It’s one thing to import. French wine because you want to, but needing to import our basic staples, I think is everyone can agree is a bad idea.

    And the only way that’s not gonna happen is if people actively seek out local sources of food first. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Actively seek out local sources. Yes. And that can vary across regions, counties, and states. But as you said, they are there and they will, they want to sell. They want to continue doing what they’re doing and share food with people.

    And it’s one of my greatest joys is going to a farmer’s market. It’s, they’re fun, they’re. It’s interesting to see what people bring in. It’s fun to talk with people, get to know who the farmer is. 

    Kristy Athens: Yep. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Exactly. Indeed. Thank you so much. Thank you for those tips and giving us all food for thought.

    And speaking of food if you could, this is the final question. If you could have dinner with anyone, up to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Kristy Athens: Can I have two answers? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. 

    Kristy Athens: Okay. So my first answer would be my Life group. And that would be my two grandmas and my mother-in-law ’cause I missed them.

    And then my career group would be, also family, my father-in-law because he had a food broker business. When I started dating my spouse in 1990 when we were tiny babies and he had this food broker business. And at the time, like I said, I was a writer and I did not care one bit about his business.

    He died in 2005 and I started doing this food stuff in 2013 with grad school, and boy do I wish I could ask him some questions now. But Jim Menlow and then and then my other two choices were Dolores Huerta. ‘Cause she was so inspirational. So good at motivating people and so food justice oriented a lot of people.

    Might not know who she is, but she was right up there with Cesar Chavez doing the same work. And Cesar gets most of the credit and the streets named after him. But Dolores Huerta is somebody to look up. And then James Beard, another civic, Northwest Hero. The first television chef before Julia Child.

    Although there’s no, no tape of it left anymore. But he is a he is wrote an a million cookbooks and he was probably the first besides native,

    their whole, for millennia. James Beard I think was born. Like early, very early, 19th or 20th century. And he lived in Portland and he and his nanny house person helper would go down to the markets down on the waterfront in Portland. And so he learned to eat oysters as a young boy and learned the importance of.

    Seasonal, eating seasonally and eating from the place you’re in. And so he’s a bastion of regional and seasonal cooking. So I would love to also, he was also if he, especially if he was making dinner, ’cause he was a great chef and and a good he had a good taste in wine from what I understand. Those would be my dinner tables.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s lovely. And a nod to James Beard is the, Portland is building a new James Beard market in exactly. Downtown, so

    anyone visiting Portland probably into 20 27, 28. I might wanna look that up. Kristy, thank you so much. I love the work you’re doing. The heart and soul you put into the hard work of driving in all four seasons with so much variability and continuing that congratulations on being benefit corporations for good.

    And we’ll put everything in the show notes. Everyone. Thanks for listening. This is Kim Allchurch flick, signing off. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Kristy Athens

    Kristy Athens smiling and holding the Benefit Corporation for Good certificate.

    Kristy has an M.S. in Food Systems and Society from Marylhurst University and is the author of Get Your Pitchfork On!: The Real Dirt on Country Living. She has worked in rural/”minority” economic development for decades, currently connecting Eastern Oregon farmers and school districts as the procurement liaison for the Oregon Farm to School Network, and serving for a number of years on the Wallowa County Farmers Market board. Kristy moved to Wallowa County in 2013, and before that lived in western Oregon/Washington and the upper Midwest. In her spare time (ha ha!) she manages Pitchfork Garden with her spouse, makes collage art, and plays songs on fiddle and electric bass.

  • Clarity and Resilience with Hussein Al-Baiaty of Rising Authors

    Clarity and Resilience with Hussein Al-Baiaty of Rising Authors

    Hussein Al-Baiaty, founder of Rising Authors, joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about clarity and resilience.

    Hussein shares his journey from Iraq and a refugee camp to building multiple businesses, including a t-shirt printing company with a refugee-focused mission, and later pivoting into author marketing after working at Scribe Media and being laid off in 2023, which accelerated the launch of Rising Authors.

    He discusses learning through adversity, staying present, and how parenting his eight-month-old son teaches him to be in awe of the world.

    Hussein emphasizes niching down by deciding “I am the most sought-after X,” aligning daily actions with that identity, and defining marketing as sharing a clear message. He describes optimism, happiness, and kindness as intentional practices.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    00:48 Clarity and Resilience Theme

    02:30 Journey and Inner Growth

    07:00 Parenthood as Teacher

    09:50 Multipotentialite Career Path

    11:44 From Architecture to Rising Authors

    14:31 Resilience Through Setbacks

    15:35 Building Rising Authors Vision

    18:35 Van Podcast and Authentic Marketing

    21:16 Trademark Lessons and Due Diligence

    23:47 Choosing a Niche to Be Known For

    25:54 Define Your Expertise

    26:45 Live the Identity

    28:12 Bold Claims and Proof

    30:55 Relief Through Focus

    32:06 Niching Down Wins

    35:07 Forge Interests Into One

    38:46 Be Sought After

    40:31 Optimism as Practice

    43:54 Connect and Closing

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick. I’m delighted to have you all listening to the podcast and today I have a dear friend, Hussein Al Baiaty, whose business is rising authors. Hussein Al Baiaty is a speaker, author, and marketing strategist who founded Rising Authors to help nonfiction writers turn their books into platforms that actually grow their impact.

    His podcast runs out of a 1985 Vanagon built for rising author voices and stories. His book, the Art of Resilience, which I have read and highly recommend, shares his journey from a war torn childhood and refugee camp to building businesses, writing books, and teaching others how to amplify their message and clarify with purpose.

    Today’s topic is clarity and resilience. Welcome, it’s so nice to see you. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Kim, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this and thanks for the time that you spent with my book. I’m so grateful to just pop in today and just hang out with you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And we were talking before about how we had met in the Portland, Oregon area long before COVID through the benefit corporations world and.

    Good community of people and now you are not in Portland anymore. And Yeah. How life is expanding 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: For both of us in different ways. And it’s so good to be in the same room together

    Hussein Al Baiaty: thing. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for making this happen. This is so good. Yeah. And it was our work before all of this and pre COVID and all this stuff, you were such a great connector and communicator. I remember you invited me to like your LinkedIn community thing and you just have this beautiful spirit about how you can further connect people and listen to their voices, and listen to their, and pain points and solutions. So I always just wanted to say, I always appreciated that about how you go out in the community and do your work.

    So thank you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, thank you. I think I appreciate that. I find that stories resonate and remind me that I’m not the only worldview around. And yeah it broadens so much to hear people have been through different things and bring so much kindness and value to the world. And I definitely see that in you, a beautiful, kind heart.

    So thank you. What has been your journey to this point and how has it shaped some of your values to where you are today? 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah, we, I guess we’re all on a journey to discover things in our world, and I think for me what my journey has taught me coming from Iraq, then refugee camp and getting the blessing of growing up in America is.

    I realize there’s a lot of self-discovery through good times and bad times. Times just teach us a lot about ourself and if we can just raise our awareness just enough to where you can anticipate that you’re going to learn something from what’s in front of you and to pay attention to that.

    I think my journey has helped me. Yeah, just really cultivate like an awareness of how I can learn from the past and present and apply it to the future as best I can and know confidently that it’s in a lot of ways it wants to work out for me and, not to plan too much, but plan enough not to try to control everything but control what you can.

    Not to. Overanalyze, but just lean into your own philosophy and develop that philosophy and like you said, learn from others. Whether it’s reading, whether it’s meeting people, whether it’s having conversations and just remembering like how, I think for me specifically, just remembering how lucky I get to.

    The how lucky I am to one be alive, two, experience, what it means to experience being a human. Three, connect my values and spiritual understanding to that experience. 

    And then lastly, it’s just like in enjoy what is in front of you. Because if you’re overthinking the past, and if you’re overthinking, like I’m talking about me, right?

    I’m overthinking the past or overthinking the future. I’m not really living right now. I’m living in those other worlds that don’t necessarily exist right now. So I try to remind myself of that. And there’s been many teachers and many amazing people. And whether they’re here now or in the past, or hopefully come in the future, that in a lot of ways, if you’re paying attention, they’ll remind you of that.

    And it’s cool. It’s beautiful. So I think the thing about my journey personally. That I’ve come to realize is that it’s teaching me something about myself and I, it’s all about the interior, in my opinion. And ’cause your exterior begins to reflect what’s on the inside. I’m just looking for ways to learn and relearn what my journey is trying to teach me and.

    Through my actions, I hope to teach, right? I hope to teach again, reteach myself, teach now my son, who’s eight months old, which is crazy. And teach the people I get to work with by being, I think the best teachers are themselves, right? It’s like they’re not even really teaching they are or advising you.

    They’re just being, and you’re like, oh man, I want that. I want that habit. I want that demeanor. I want that calm, but they just embody it. They’re not telling you how to do it. You gotta come to it yourself. I think that’s beautiful. I think that’s something my, ’cause when you’re young, you want to learn and do and reenact and want to be taught to where I think at some point I learned.

    I can just be myself and, and pay attention. And by just by being attentive, my behavior will change. And from behavior, that’s what we seek in leaders, in people around us and whatever. It’s like we seek an attribute that they may be carrying, but in order to practice that attribute, you gotta see where it can apply in your life. Where do you go practice that? So I don’t know. I think that’s what my personally, I think that’s what my journey has taught me and how it shaped me. And yeah, I don’t know if that’s a good answer or not. That’s just where I’m at. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, when you were saying that, it also strikes me that as a teacher and a young parent, that also becomes a two-way street.

    It’s gonna be a new, 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: very much, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: a new part of the journey. Beautiful. Making impressions on someone that’s young, but How much they can teach us too. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Exactly. I look at it like, oh my God, I’m relearning. What it, because it’s a part of, obviously when they’re, when you’re babies, when they’re babies, it’s a part of you that you didn’t know ex almost existed.

    You don’t remember being a two month old. And, but it’s like, oh, this is interesting, this how, this is how I must have been. Or they’re, like it’s things that like, oh, this is how my father must have felt, or my mother must have felt, or whatever. And it’s closes the loop on things you didn’t realize.

    And I and that is such a beautiful learning journey, but what, guess what, he’s not teaching me anything. He’s just being, and that is, is teaching. It’s just the being the innocence of, they’re not trying to do anything. They’re just trying to exist and learn and look around and they’re paying attention, obviously, like him just.

    Looking at the room and like looking at the little thing and falling over to it and I realized oh wow, like that is the most powerful way to teach. It’s just to, you yourself has have to be in awe of the world that you’re in. And that’s so inspiring to other people because everyone I’ve ever looked up to or wanted to be, they’re just.

    They’re beautifully in awe of the world that they’re in, and they’re trying to investigate, figure out, solve and I don’t think there’s a better teacher right now than my little one. So yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Be beautifully in awe of the world you’re in. That 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: makes, yeah. Obviously there’s a naive, hey, right?

    There’s a Yes, absolutely. There’s a pause and disbelief 

    Of the things that are completely and utterly out of our control. But there is a beautiful thing when you’re just in your environment and everything is interesting and beautiful, like the pen that you hold the fact that you get to do, just like remembering how beautiful our built in natural world is and just being in it and we just forget because we.

    Are consumed by so many other things that are completely and utterly out of our control. And I, yeah, I think that is what I’m insanely grateful for these days, is how my son is reminding me to just be in this moment. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I am so happy for you. I’m excited. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Thank you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: So we have a friend who uses a word that I love, multipotentialite.

    And I think you can guess who that is. As a multipotentialite, how has it been to create new ideas? Because I’ve known you through four or five different companies. You still live here now you’re in the desert, and what has that been like? 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah, so I guess we could walk through them, right? So I went to school for architecture.

    I, I was in the graphic, so at first. I was a, I’ve always been an artist a creative, a drawing and painting, big part of my life. And then I wove that and got into architecture school, got an architecture degree, but also got a business mine. I’ve always been interested in how I can utilize my skills to earn some income because, I didn’t.

    Become very affluent, co, family or anything like we were on welfare and Medicaid and all that stuff. So I always wanted to figure out how I can, not only grow my business or grow a business, but I was also surrounded by some business owners. So I used to work at the Saturday market, flipping euros and, whatever it was to just earn some extra income to help myself and my family.

    But I learned at a very young age. That you can take if you’re good at something or if you can get good at something, you can offer it to someone else. So that started for me. I was like hand painting t-shirts for my friends and selling ’em on eBay. That was my first spark. Actually, even before that, I offered to paint the wall of the bowling alley.

    I was working at like the two big walls that run across the the sides of the bowling alley. That was my first taste of oh, I can use my skill to earn extra income. And that was really powerful. And so anyway, I went to school for architecture. I came out of that. I could not get a job like my life, like I just could not get something going.

    I had an a brief internship, but it didn’t go anywhere. I started t-shirt printing again just to make extra income because I was like maybe this is like intermediary so that I can eventually get a job in the architecture world. And the t-shirt business started growing and growing some more, and then I started doing like, marketing stuff and like websites and just learning how to market my own business.

    And I started taking it really serious. Eventually you and I met and then I started saying, okay, how can this turn into a mission so I could be a little bit different than all these other print shops, which led to refugees giving back to refugee communities. And then, at some point I just was like, I didn’t really set out in life to be a t-shirt printing business owner.

    There’s, there was something else bigger for me but I was really good at consulting and coaching other people and like doing and telling stories and speaking. I was getting hired to speak, which was so fun and I loved every minute I spoke for 10 years to like high schools and colleges and so I was like, oh, maybe there’s something there for me where I can do like more consulting, more speaking.

    I really wanted to write a book and I, and there was a moment. That made the flip for everything, which was unfortunately when my father passed away, which was in 2016, and I knew, like at the end of 2016. So I knew I, I wanted to do something more fulfilling and change the trajectory, and so I went on this path for the next like few.

    It took a while, it took all the way to 2020 to sell my shop and sell that business and then start something new. I wasn’t new to starting something new but I also moved and I completely just shed I don’t wanna say older version of myself, but like a, an exterior version of myself that felt like I needed to hustle and bustle and just go outta my way to over please people.

    And there was a lot of layered things. I needed to break out of, to enter this new version of myself, which was this kind of getting back to being a creative and, but what does that mean? For me, it was, I wanted to write, I wanted to paint, and I wanted to build something around helping pe other people understand how they can clarify and spread their message.

    And that was my like resilience thing. The resilience thing came from how many times I like tripped up and started over. Tripped up and started over. Or built something after something not so good happened. Which was again, my father passing, or like before that it was like the NBA suing me.

    Before that it was, I didn’t get into architecture school. It was, like there was so many sort of dips in. Before it became somewhat successful, there was like a huge, this is not gonna work, I gotta make it work. And so I learned a lot from those times and I think that’s what helped me build the courage.

    When my wife and I decided to move down to Tucson and start over. And not really start over, right? It’s just starting a new chapter. And I think that’s the realization I, I’m like, I’m not starting over. I have all of this amazing life experience and I know what not to do. I know how my financials better.

    I know all of these things, and now I can apply them to a new trajectory, which is gonna make it that much better and more potent. Rising authors didn’t just come outta nowhere. I went and worked for the company that published my book, scribe Media for almost three and a half years, or a little bit more.

    And I worked with some of the best, writers and editors, and I worked with Tucker Max and this woman, Emily Gidel Barger and Chaz Hoppy and Charlie Hoen. Someone like I worked with some. Amazing people to, and I learned so much about the publishing world. That and then there was like a missing element that I felt like I could eventually fulfill, which was the sort of marketing and brand element that I was good at from all these previous things that I’ve done.

    But now I could bring them to this sort of specific niche and I can deploy all my creativity, all my. Ideologies, my learnings and everything to this niche. And so unfortunately I got laid off along with a hundred other people in 2023, like May of 2023, and that stung. But immediately, literally within two weeks, I had rising authors up and going, I had a website, I had people signing up for my coaching programs and my, brand programs.

    And I just knew I like. I was, at the time too, I built this other little community of everyone that got laid off and all the authors that were impacted because I rec, I know a refugee when I see them, right? And so we developed this whole thing where they can still connect and like work with each other.

    So that was really cool. And so it was just a moment of like, I know what to do when chaos happens. In that moment, I never felt more calm. I never felt more oh, and again, it was just all of the, my previous experiences had led to, okay, this isn’t here anymore. What am I gonna do now? And it’s, and honestly even months before I was prepping that I was eventually going to leave this job and go do my own thing, this just sped it up.

    So that’s part of my journey that I feel like. Was important to me. And again, level of awareness and paying attention to what’s going on and the paying attention. I saw the problem and then I started investigating a solution. And in that solution there was skills, skills that I can apply.

    And so when I started rising authors it just, it felt almost natural. It felt like a. Duh, next step. And yeah. And then, there’s a component of rising authors that we’re still developing and working on, which is going to be like the Garden of Wisdom Publishing. I have two more books in me that I wanna publish.

    There’s where we, the idea is where we can, grab onto and help. People of color stories resonate and publish as well and help build their brands. And I dipped my toes in podcasting in my van before the rising author stuff, and. Today it’s oh, this is a no-brainer to use the van and travel around.

    Obviously I put it on a back burner ’cause I had a son this last year and a half, right? But when we bring it back and do the travel tour to interview authors and things like that’s something I’m very passionate about. And like I love meeting people and there’s something about the immigrant, this idea of movement.

    And then like settling for a moment and then moving again, and then investigating and learning. I think for me, the van is a metaphor to that. And now we can utilize it to highlight other people’s stories, but also to bring awareness and attention to my work as a marketer. And it’s like you can do all kinds of different things.

    That can align with who you are and how they help your business. So I’m not a, I’m not a fool. Like I want to grow my business and grow what I’m good at, but I need clients for that. And it’s like, well, how can I use the van, the, this, the, that, my marketing abilities do something for that person and in return, get some kind of work out of it.

    But do it in a very authentic and clean way. So I’m not like. One, I’m not like begging for work or whatever, but I’m actually giving more than I’m receiving. So yeah, that’s the journey of, I think being multi, you can use your multi-pass, multi-dimensions and apply it to a I don’t wanna say narrow field, but apply it to something you are really passionate and trying to obsess over.

    And for me, I learned that. All of these things. I just, I love the idea of marketing, and marketing is sharing a clear message so that other people can resonate with it. And I didn’t realize that for a long time that all of these things fit under that umbrella, but that’s where I ended up going.

    It was like, you know what? I’m gonna try to become a really good marketing expert for authors so that they can learn from me and then I can meet them and help them. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that and marketing is sharing a clear message and emphasis on that. ’cause marketing can be clear a lot of things. But I, I know from that history that you’ve been a benefit corporations for good company owner and the clarity of message fits into vision and values, which resonate through you so much.

    And I also wanna tell you unintentionally. You gave me a gift more than one. But there’s one that stands out and it triggered my memory when you said about being sued by the MBA because I am a business generalist and coach and was also in the small business development center for five years.

    As a business advisor and working with companies that come up with names or wanna have taglines or do things. And in the back of my mind, there’s always been a few stories about. Danger. Danger. You don’t wanna cross a trademark, you don’t wanna do copyright infringement. And people’s gut response, even if they think about checking something, is to go straight to Google.

    And I’m like, Nope. That is not a way to, 

    It’s okay for a little bit, but do the due diligence to check copyrights. And part of it was when you were. I’ve been to several, few lectures, but one of them, you told that story and it really helped me bring home to other people’s people cautionary tales of don’t go the way you wanna go without some due diligence.

    Because it’s very painful to get expensive to, to get caught. And we have ways to search and look and that story taught me so much about helping people anticipate. And helping people forecast a little bit what could be down the road. And to be cautious and because it’s great to have a, it’s feels, you know how it is, it feels so good to have a good name for a product or a service.

    It’s, it feels great to think you’ve nailed it and then find out, oh, that might get a cease and desist letter down the road. How to anticipate that and shift beforehand and have some disappointment beforehand because I have seen, unfortunately, several really sweet, wonderful entrepreneurs almost go bankrupt because of things that they didn’t anticipate.

    And it’s it, 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: right? It’s, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: it is brutal. A cruel world out there. But knowledge is power and being able to anticipate and learn how to do due diligence can be part of that. And your stories resonate with me. Constantly about, these other parts of business ownership as well and, I don’t wanna overuse the word pivot, so I’m not going to here, but sometimes to sidestep or move in a different direction or be observant and see that there’s something even more important to others out there. Yeah. If you just take an off ramp and a slightly different journey, it can lead to beautiful things.

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah, I think a lot of people get, this has happened to me and it happens to a lot of people, is that we get stuck, especially if you’re like, oh man, that name is taken, or whatever, and then they like don’t move past it and they just like get frustrated or irritable and it’s like, no, try a hundred different names, try it.

    I think as, as much as I’ve been able to narrow and concentrate my energies on what I’m doing now, I think. There’s one thing that really helped me with that and it might help you and other people, and that is to realize, like for me it was what do I want to be known for?

    I think this is like a the black smith back in the day can make knives and swords and make your shoes or whatever. And then it became shoe making is like a completely different thing. And then. Even in shoemaking, there’s like the leather and there’s different types, right?

    There’s subcategories to almost every category, right? And so I’m not a marketer for, I can do marketing for plumbers and electricians, but that’s not what I want to do. That’s not what excites me. Nothing wrong with them or what they do. I think it’s a very necessary thing in our world, clearly. Can I do that?

    Yes, of course I can apply what I know to that world. However, for me, I just, I love the world of books. I just attribute so much of who I’ve become from learning from books that I was like and working with authors who have wild stories and experiences and all these things, and I feel like it’s another way to experience the world.

    So wait, why don’t I take what I know and say, and this is, I know this is really corny, but it’s a really good practice. You say something like, I am the most sought after X, Y, Z, right? So for me it was, I am the most sought after author marketing expert in the world. So if you can take that sentence and say, I am the most sought after X, but that X needs to be specific.

    So for me, it’s author marketing expert, right? Everything else lines up right behind that. So what does that mean? I, so the three definitive things that I have is I help an author with clarity. I help an author build an online presence, like their website and all this stuff, and then I help an author with how to get their message out into the world using their online presence.

    So once you define what is. Author, marketing expert, like what do they do? What is the daily thing? It’s like a shoemaker takes leather and turns it into a, a pair of really cool shoes. So it’s like that is the thing. And I think people need to visually see that for themself and visually recognize what it is that they’re actually providing.

    So for me, once I like wrote that sentence. Slowly, like really leaned into believing it. So I’m like, okay, if I am the most sought after X, what does the most sought after X do? What does this person do to be that the most sought after? So then you have to live up to this identity and it creates a little bit of pressure and it creates a little bit of uncomfort and it creates a little bit of excitement.

    And for me. Duh. I’m not the most, like from the world perspective, I’m not the most sought after author, marketing person, whatever. But for me, I am that and that’s all that matters. And I need to live up to that for myself. I need to not fool myself. ’cause if I am that person, then I need to wake up in the morning.

    I need to show up like this. I need to read the right books or the books that will help inform this knowledge so that when I teach or work with people that I’m delivering things that matter. Practicing it myself. So speaking and going out there and getting work and marketing myself and marketing my brand.

    And that is, there’s so many people who will tell you like, oh, I know how to help market you, but they don’t market themself. That doesn’t make any sense to me. I’m gonna give you the best shoes on earth to wear for basketball. But we actually make soccer shoes. What? You know what I mean?

    It’s the. Do you live up to that thing? Does do your action. Are your actions the byproduct of what you’re doing? Is it visual? Is it, is there proof? That’s the biggest thing. Is there proof? So as a business owner, but more so as a person this, when I decided that I am the world’s most sought after X, then.

    Everything lined up behind that to make that as powerful as it can be and as true as it can be for me and hopefully for other people, when they get to experience working together with me. So I’m not here to try to promote my thing. I’m just saying that was a one-liner that really like is very uncomfortable, because a lot of people will just say I don’t wanna be the most sought after thing. It’s okay, now you’re playing it safe, right? Because saying I’m the world’s most whatever, is very bold. It’s very big, right? It’s scary. But also if you just want to say, I just need a few clients and I just want to be a marketing, whatever.

    That’s okay. That’s you and the rest of everyone else because. And they’re not gonna stand out. They’re not. So when you say, I’m the world’s most sought after whatever, that must mean everything you do, all the bold statements, it means you own a contrarian way of doing something. It means you are going to, like, when a basketball player decides that they’re gonna be the best basketball player in the world, it means they’re gonna show up to the gym differently.

    They’re gonna wear their shoes, they’re gonna put their socks on a specific way. They’re going to all of these, they’re gonna drink the right things. Their diet is gonna be a specific way, right? So that, that’s literally going from amateur to being a pro. When you make a decision that you’re going to be the best at the thing that you’re gonna do.

    Right now, again, that’s a leap and that’s the leap I help people make, is that when you build a personal brand as an author, as a person who wants to share a message of any kind, even a small business owner of any kind, if you have a salon, if you have a radio station, if you have whatever, an app, just decide you’re the best at it in the world because it’s not the business that’s gonna be the best at it in the world.

    It’s you have to rise up to that occasion. And that’s the rising up, which is literally why rising authors exists. It’s the rising up to that occasion that differentiates what you can offer and put on the table. You’re gonna do things differently. It’s gonna force you to yeah, think differently, think in a ways that really empower you and others.

    Sorry I went off on a tangent there, but I think that’s really important. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: You gave me a lot of quotes though. You have to rise to that occasion. And it, what I also means to me is particularly for people who are trying to do too much and wearing several different hats and things of that nature, is we can’t be the best at one thing if we’re doing a lot of different things and 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: oh my God, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: to be able to, I have so much 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: to say about 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: this, focus it in oh and guilty trying to do too many things, and yet what?

    As you were saying those words, I felt relief. Oh, if I can just say that, I can shed 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: a lot. Tell me about that relief. Why? Why did you feel a relief? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Because trying to do too many things and be too broad is a lot of extraneous work that doesn’t feel very fulfilling. And to be able to tell ourselves, this is a very specific niche that I someone else.

    Can, the specific part speaks to niche, which speaks to, okay, if it doesn’t fit in the niche, you don’t have to worry about it to really create something that resonates. And if it resonates inside, it resonates with others. And as this through the SBDC, there’s this story I’m, I may have told you before, but just take a couple of seconds about niche and what you’re speaking to.

    One of my friends was teaching a class at a new entrepreneur. Was very good at repairing windows, and the niche was repairing windows. That could be Home Depot to anybody. It’s like the homework was be more specific, create a niche, and after some time this person came back and said, the niche is to repair windows with sash windows that were created.

    Before, I think it was 1887 and the teacher who’s my friend was saying, I’ve never met a niche. That may be too specific, but there’s something about that. That was the end of hand tools and hand repair and hand creation of windows. And there, after that we got into, machine age. And the reason this person is so successful is in fixing windows like Mount Vernon and historic registry buildings is because they’re one of the few people in the world that knows that specific, 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: that’s it.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Talk about success. It’s not about fixing every window out there. And so when you were talking about I am the most sought after specific in the world. It wasn’t about windows, it was about history. And I think what you’ve, if everyone listening can take this and think, oh wow, this is really something.

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it makes a difference. It resonates. And anyone searching for that or wanting to find something, it really resonates. And then the marketer in you also knows searching for a window repair. It’s gonna be a lot broader in crazy making than I have a historic building who can help me.

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Exactly. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And knows it a whole bunch. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah. Because let’s say there is a million historic windows that need to be repaired. You probably can’t do them all in your lifetime, and you’re gonna make an amazing living doing that and doing what you love. Because you know those historical, you know the frames, you know the wood and the brick around them, and so much that even if it takes you five minutes, you can still charge $10,000 because you are the only one in the entire state that could probably do that, right? Or you are one of five great. That means someone else can fix all the other windows that I can’t, and even in my niche, right? So people are terrified of niching down.

    In fact, I even saw. A post today that I completely disagreed with, which was you don’t have to, you don’t have to niche down. Don’t take that advice. And I’m like, yeah, cool. Keep being a generalist because that’s fine. You can be a gen, like in, in reality, I’m a generalist. I’m, I love painting, drawing, writing, copywriting, websites, marketing.

    I’m interested in Arabic music I’m in. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. Like I have a ton of interest. Here’s where it gets strong is that it’s all forged, right? It’s all forged into a beautiful sword so that I can cut through the noise and deliver one thing that I’m remarkable at, right? And that is how you build a garden.

    You walk by somebody’s house and their garden is beautiful, front yard, back yard, whatever. You can see it and you pause and you look and you appreciate, and you see the birds and the bees and the person there, gardening and all of these beautiful things, and you appreciate that home, right? That’s what it means to build our thing.

    Literally my next book, it’s called The Garden Warrior, which literally means how do you cultivate and build something so unique, so beautiful, right? And so you, right? If you’re if you just grew roses in front of your house, just grew roses, imagine how many people will come and stop and take pictures of those roses, right?

    Just imagine. So it’s the same thing with your business. I always I love like a good taco truck that serves like not a bunch of different types of tacos, just the biggest and best chicken taco in the world, right? Like it’s just the one thing and they just pour all their energy into that.

    I met, those are the ones that have lines. The best sushi place doesn’t serve burgers. It’s evident all of everywhere, like Michael Jordan to the little kid who decides not to play every sport but just run track and he becomes great at running track, whatever it is. When we decide that I want to, I wanna obsess over this thing, then the world becomes your library.

    This is a quote from Kobe Bryant. The world becomes your library on how you become the greatest thing at that thing, right? So it’s like Kobe Bryant used to take ballet classes to improve his feet and legs, right? So yes, you can be multidisciplinary and learn a bunch, but the key is how do I apply this to the world?

    How does it make me the world expert at that thing? Or my business at that thing. And so people think they need to spread their, so that comes also from fear and insecurity, where we spread ourselves thin. ’cause we’re trying to people please. How do I know? Because I’ve done this, when we are saying like, I’m good at this and I’m good at that and I don’t know where to go and I have so many good things and I don’t wanna decide on what type of business.

    My business does everything. And it’s if you’re everything for everyone, you’re for no one. It’s just the way it is. I’m sorry to say it. Why? Because we love when people put a lot of effort. Look at these Olympians that we were just watching. The, in the, whether they’re skiing or snowboarding or whatever, they spent years just perfecting that one thing, that one, ten second thing that they’re working on like after life.

    But we’re all watching all around the world to see who’s gonna get the microsecond win, something unique about that. So when we think about that and apply it to our work, and I say I am the now, here’s the key part, sought after, which means people are looking for me for this thing as opposed to me going to find people for my thing.

    So the problem with a lot of marketing and marketing advice is that we go out there and do outreach. Which is, so somebody goes and comes back and says, oh, I want a website, but I need it for my plumbing service. And I’m like, yeah, I can do that. And then I need a website for my thing. I can do that.

    Now I’m a generalist website developer and there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s people who make a good living doing that. But I’ll never be the go-to plumbing website builder person on earth because that’s not my world. Because I wouldn’t, I would build a plumbing podcast. I would build a plumbing newsletter.

    I would build like a plumbing community. I would build a plumbing conference. I would build all of these things for the plumbing people to show them that I love them and guess what’s gonna happen. They’re gonna show me that they love me too. ’cause I provide things and services and community and all those things for them, right?

    It goes back and forth. So everyone I feel like I’ve ever admired in business or whatever, and at least their niche, they’re not only good at that thing that they’re really seeing, but their business is a reflection of this whole thing. They lead that conversation and people look to them for what they’re doing or not doing to build their own thing.

    So that’s just really powerful. So the word sought after, before the X is just as important as the X because it’s cool. You don’t have to go out there and look for work. People are referring you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Words of wisdom. And this is so awesome. And I feel so upbeat about it. I’m just wondering what makes you optimistic?

    Hussein Al Baiaty: You can see my energy go through the roof when I talk about this stuff, right? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: I think optimism is a practice. It’s like patience. It’s gratitude. It’s health and wellness and taking a break and it’s work. I look at everything that we are trying to be as we gotta work at it.

    You can’t just be optimistic, right? But being optimistic requires paying attention. So that’s a practice that you can do to the, and the byproduct of paying attention. Can be opportunity prospects, solutions, optimism. Kindness, generosity, when you’re paying attention and looking for the thing, right? You gotta look for the thing.

    It starts with intention. So I look for ways to be optimistic. I look for ways to create opportunity for myself and others. I look for ways to grow my business. I look for ways to be happy. Happiness is not a, a state, it’s a, it’s an inten. It starts with an intention. I can look at my baby and be happy as whatever, right?

    Because how can you not? I can look at my wife and feel the same way. I can look at my work and feel the same way. So just as much as you can feel bad or sad or shitty about the world, you can also choose to be happy, excited, optimistic, and prosperous about your world. Happiness, optimism, patience, kindness.

    All of those things are a practice. They are not something you receive because you are privileged. They are not something you receive because you’re white, black, Asian, Jamaican, whatever. They are a privilege that you get to practice and it is a choice and I strongly believe that now do things.

    It’s again, because it’s a byproduct. I believe what makes for Optum optimism is to generate luck. And the way you generate luck is you create it by working hard at the thing that you’re doing and sharing about it and being excited about it. And there’s not gonna be, you’re not gonna be excited about it every day.

    So just put that away. You’re probably not gonna be excited for about it for a month, maybe two, but, all of these things that we expect are a reflection. They are a mirror. So if I’m optimistic, the world is gonna come back with optimism. If I’m happy, the world is gonna come back to me with happy things to see.

    So I want to pay attention, take your attention and direct it towards something in your life that is positive. And you guess what? Literally the byproduct of that attention is optimism, piece, love, happiness, all the things that we want are there, but they’re hidden behind your attention, your intention.

    That’s how I feel about that stuff. So optimism is not something I have, it’s something I work on. It’s something that I practice, something that I go out there and look for. It’s, it requires me just as much as I require it. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow. I, that’s the most profound answer to that question. I just, I love that. As we wrap up, I’m curious how can people reach you and then we’ll go to our final question.

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah. Just HusseinAlBaiaty.com or rising-authors.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. That’s where I love to hang out. LinkedIn community. Reach me there, Hussein Al dash B-A-I-A-T-Y. Yeah, I’d love to connect with you there. You wanna reach out, message me, whatever. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And if you could have dinner with up to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why?

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Yeah, I think that one for me is pretty easy. I would, I just there’s, I don’t have a pedestal anymore. I knocked that down a long time ago. There’s no one on a pedestal. I don’t really care about that world anymore. I just, I would love to have dinner with my father again and I would love to have dinner with my father and my son and all three of us can hang out and have a beautiful dinner together.

    And 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yes, 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: and most of the conversation would just be.

    Thank you. 

    Yeah, it’ll just be, thank you. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: You are amazing. I really wish I could give you a hug. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Thank you. I 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: appreciate 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: your time. I’ll be back in Portland soon, so we’ll make it happen. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, fantastic. This resonates so deeply. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening. So many messages to take forth and that’s where wisdom lies.

    I think it’s learning, sharing, spreading those things. I’ve learned a lot today and carry it close to heart. Thank you so much, everyone. Have a wonderful day. Take care. 

    Hussein Al Baiaty: Appreciate 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: it. Bye-bye. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Hussein Al-Baiaty

    Hussein Al-Baiaty is a speaker, author, and marketing strategist who founded Rising Authors to help nonfiction writers turn their books into platforms that actually grow their impact. His podcast runs out of a 1985 Vanagon, built for raising author voices and stories. His book, Art of Resilience, shares his journey from a war-torn childhood and refugee camp to building businesses, writing books, and teaching others how to amplify their message with clarity and purpose.

  • Sustainable Marketing, AI Disruption, and Trust with Jen McFarland

    Sustainable Marketing, AI Disruption, and Trust with Jen McFarland

    Jen McFarland, founder of Women Conquer Business, joins Kim Allchurch Flick.

    Women Conquer Business is a mission-driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing using digital strategy, SEO, and AI with a values-based focus on accessibility and clarity.

    McFarland shares her path from early marketing work to Peace Corps service in Kazakhstan, which shaped her perspective on equity and being “in the know,” then to earning an MPA and leading policy and digital transformation projects for the City of Portland, including IRS data tax matching.

    Burned out and disconnected from community impact, she started helping women with technology and later rebranded from Foster Growth to Women Conquer Business.

    She discusses challenges of entrepreneurship, community-based marketing amid economic stress, capacity-aware marketing, mixed feelings about AI’s environmental and privacy costs, the need to reduce doomscrolling, and optimism centered on younger generations and a marketing future focused on trust. 

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

    01:39 Jen’s Origin Story

    02:20 Peace Corps Perspective Shift

    06:57 City Government Lessons

    10:18 Leap to Entrepreneurship

    14:07 Serving Community in Hard Times

    21:21 Capacity Aware Marketing

    22:45 AI Disrupts Marketing

    25:43 Staying Optimistic and Joyful

    28:36 Values and Trust in Marketing

    32:27 Where to Find Jen

    34:06 Dream Dinner Guests

    38:11 Closing Thanks

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick and today I am delighted to have a dear friend, Jen McFarland. Jen McFarland runs Women Conquer Business and is the founder. Jen is a marketing strategist, former City of Portland digital transformation leader and founder of Women Conquer Business, a mission-driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing.

    After a decade of shaping policy and public facing digital services inside government, she saw firsthand how small businesses are underserved and often preyed upon. She built her business to change that. Jen blends deep expertise in digital strategy SEO, and AI driven marketing with a values-based approach centered on accessibility, clarity, and real world results.

    She now helps women-owned businesses cut through overwhelm, build marketing they can sustain and grow with confidence. Today we’re gonna talk about how small businesses grow lessons from city government to helping women survive the marketing mess. That has to be about the coolest topic ever because I feel it every day.

    Welcome. It’s so good to see you. 

    Jen McFarland: You too. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    So 

    Jen McFarland: good 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: to see you. It’s, it is, and we have known each other for a while and both of us have been involved instructing at the small business development Center. So you’re a teacher, a coach supporting Accelerate women as well, and I’m so happy to learn more about your journey.

    So what has been your journey and the inspirations that brought you through a city to this point in time? 

    Jen McFarland: I know it’s so funny, like the question because when I, sometimes when I talk to people, they’re like, you did that too. What haven’t you done? Like I, because I am really into having really good experiences.

    So I’ve worked at a paper, I was a DJ for a while. I’ve done, I’ve done a lot of things. I got my first marketing job in at a company on Swan Island here in Portland, Oregon in the nineties, because I knew. What a scanner was like. The person interviewing me amazing. I know pointed at and said, you know what this is, I’m like a scanner.

    And so it’s just been it’s been a journey. I think the most transformational experience I had that probably set me on this trajectory was when I was in college and like right after I got out of college, one of my closest friends was in the Peace Corps. In Guatemala. And then and then I was like I wanna do that, and so then it started this whole thing of but then I got married and, but my husband wanted to go to, and so we had to figure out our finances. So it was this whole big thing about how to go serve. And then when you do have an experience like that, it just like. Sets you on a different mindset, a different place.

    You look at the world differently because you realize contextually what goes on here is so different than somebody else’s context, and it makes you look at things through a different lens. Just because I think it’s because of the length. After the first year, you’re still holding on to all of your.

    Ideas about we do it better America, whatever, but by the end of the second year, you have enough experience that you’re like, we really don’t, we don’t really know what we’re talking about anymore than anybody else does. We just do it differently. And I think for me, the biggest thing for me in terms of like equity and inclusion happened when, it’s really cold in Kazakhstan. That’s where we served. And so getting dressed to go to the school. Is like a big deal, like you’re, ’cause the whole, the apartment is cold. Like we’re not talking about central heating and stuff here, and so you put on all of your clothes and it’s 20 below and and you get to the school and there’s a padlock on the door.

    And nobody told you that there’s no school today. And I remember that. I remember standing outside the school and it was the second year and nobody told me there wasn’t school. And like I started to lose it, and I remember saying to myself that just doesn’t happen at home, and I was like, wait, no, it does. I’m just part of the group that’s in the know. And so those are the kinds of things that happen when you live in a culture long enough. Like you start to see that oh, I’m the other, oh, at my, where I live, I’m not the other. And like you start to have these aha moments, and so after that, when I got back from the Peace Corps, that was when I ran an AmeriCorps program for a year, and then I got my master’s in public administration. And worked at the city and did do a lot of policy work and things like that. And tech projects.

    Like my last project was bringing IRS data to the city of Portland for tax matching. You’re welcome. So for higher tax compliance at the city. And that was a big lesson like working with the federal government. That’s like a whole other thing versus working in local government. And then I just got burned out.

    I really felt like I wasn’t, I was affecting, there’s more, but at the time, 50,000 business owners at any one time. And then when it came to like bigger projects, it was like every portlander, we were affecting with like apps we would stand up or, redoing the website was one of my projects.

    All kinds of things. And then I was like, but I don’t really see. How it’s impacting people, and I got, I felt very disconnected from the community in that work, doing it at that level. And and a bunch of other things happened. Like it wasn’t a good environment for me as a individual.

    It didn’t really work for me. I like to move a little faster and so I started helping people on the side, like just with websites and things like that, because I could see. That there was a lot that needed to happen and a lot of people who particularly with like technology would just pat women on the head and be like, oh, you’re okay.

    And like they wouldn’t really help them or didn’t really have a real sense of. How the, as a provider, their actions were affecting these women business owners. And I was like I can help with this stuff. Like I can do this. And so that’s where at the time, foster growth, that’s, that was my, still my LLC was born, was out of that because I help and the name foster growth was because I help people foster growth and change.

    And that was what was on my resume, like all kinds of stuff. And then I got out in the world and people didn’t understand what foster growth meant. So a couple years later I changed it to Women Conquer Business, which is a pretty cool name. And it does a good job of attracting the right people and repelling the wrong people, which is always a good marketing exercise,

    Kim Allchurch Flick: wow, that’s my 

    Jen McFarland: story of sticking to it. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. You said something that I think is profound because essentially a city and employees of a city or government, county state. All that are supposed to be there for the people. And it really struck me that you said you felt so disconnected from the people in that role and yet we’re learning so many things and what a viewpoint that must be, but also seeing what’s missing that led you to women conquer business.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. I think that. We tend to see and we talked about it a lot in grad school, we tend to see the street level bureaucrats. So those are like firemen, police officers customer service people, if you go to a public park or things like that. Like they’re there and they’re like the people that you see, that you interact with.

    And then there’s a lot of people like me who are making decisions. Without public meetings, without any sort of discourse. And then you learn later oh my gosh, we like, we didn’t translate something. Or the form is confusing and people don’t do it. Or, people didn’t even know they were supposed to pay this tax.

    There’s all kinds of things that happen and there’s a lot of fallout and it’s because there is a big disconnect. The, a lot of policies, the city happened because somebody got elected and they decided this thing was gonna happen, and whether or not people want it or not.

    And that’s the thing that, that has always been frustrated. Frustrated. My dad, who worked at the Idaho Tax Commission for 42 years was like, politicians make decisions, but it’s the frontline, like workers of a state or county or whatever that get all of the blowback, and it’s.

    It’s politicians who raise your taxes. It’s politicians who make decisions that you don’t like. But then everybody says that they hate government. And there’s things within the system that are not great, not good. I find most government was formed, like how we do things was formed in the 1950s.

    And the world has changed vastly since then, but we don’t fund government to be agile at all. And if you look at some of the things that have happened since Trump 2.0 where they’ve just been slash and burning things like they’re, they have devastating consequences because everything is so interconnected that you can’t just be like.

    Doge and like just cut through everything. It just, it’s too intricate and making those shifts take so long, and it’s good and it’s bad. If you’re like me and you want change to happen quicker, like it’s not the right place for you to work, but. Government taking a time to like shift is actually a good thing because then you have more time to make sure that everybody comes along, and the danger with a lot of the things that are happening is it just skips over all of the like, inconveniences that people think make government slow, but it’s also what makes it work better. For all of its flaws. There are some things that were good about government being slower. Especially at the federal level.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, that, that makes sense. And thank you for that insider view. And I think we’ll probably come back to that every once in a while through the conversation. And what been some challenges and obstacles, particularly also going from employment or an organization, which is the government to being an entrepreneur?

    Jen McFarland: I. Every, I always think about it like, I’m so grateful to the infrastructure of like corporate life and like working at the city because I, and that’s why like I’m so grateful for my business operations manager, because there were just a lot of things that I didn’t realize I was getting help with.

    You learn pretty fast as soon as you’re out and you’re doing everything like holy cannoli, there’s like a lot to do. And so that was like the biggest gap was like, here I was somebody who did a lot of work but I wasn’t the face of the city. That was other people. I wasn’t doing all the finance.

    I wasn’t doing all the admin. I didn’t have an admin employee, but there was still a lot of admin that happened without. Me having to do anything. It was like magic, and all the magic’s gone. When you have your own, when you have your own business, all of a sudden you’re like, you’re the magic maker for everything.

    And that was like, that was a big shift. Like it was a, oh, be careful what you ask for, Jen. You just got it,

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yeah, be careful what you wish for it. It is true, isn’t it? I also came from more corporate life, not in a city, but through necessity after being laid off. It’s what’s next?

    Have to build something and having business acumen, but not having been a, not having run a business had been a part of a bigger machine, and steady paychecks are. Very nice. Pretty nice, 

    Jen McFarland: aren’t they? Yeah. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And work. Working hard for sometimes to build revenue that is not yet arriving is a good boy Cup call is, that is really 

    Jen McFarland: something, isn’t it?

    Or I remember the, and it hasn’t, I’ve been very blessed. It hasn’t happened very many times, but somebody didn’t pay, so I did all this work and then they never paid. And that happened to me like. Within two months of leaving the city. And I was like, are you kidding me? And then having like conversations with this business owner who just it was so vitriolic and adversarial, and I’m sending like proof of work, which she knew, she knew that I’d done the work, and I had to walk away from a few thousand dollars like.

    And I was like, oh man, I didn’t even consider this, as like a possibility. And that was a, that was also a big thing that happened, like pretty, pretty new to business that I was like, oh yeah, I guess that’s why they have small claims court, or whatever. And so yeah, you have those moments, but then.

    Then you learn how to analyze people when they come in to see if they’re really a good fit. And of course you can’t really know if people are not gonna pay. That’s still a thing that could happen I guess. You get better with time at assessing. If somebody’s full of it, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: absolutely. And knowing you through the years, I also see as being. A very mission-driven, values aligned business owner and caring about people in the community. And sadly, it’s too, sometimes along the way, there are those who don’t always see the same value set. They just want something to be done.

    And unfortunately, I have heard more than once about people who don’t get paid. With that it strikes me that you stuck to your values so much throughout and actually building stronger ones, and I think that’s one of the things I admire about you and women conquer business so much. And what do you see in the community you serve and how do you share your values with your community?

    Jen McFarland: I would say that, there’s a couple of different ways. There’s. There’s the community of say, like Accelerate Women or the work that David Mim and I put together for Prosper, Portland’s Inclusive Business Resource Network, where we built a digital marketing program from the ground up and served.

    I think it ended up being several hundred businesses. In the beginning it was just the two of us. And then at the end we had, I think, six or seven consultants, who were all serving. BIPOC business owners. Through IBRN and Mercatus, which is how I also got hooked into SBDC and some of those other things because David and I were also training the trainers so that we could help people understand how to help businesses.

    And that was really the foundation of getting into the community and really hearing about the problems and the questions that people had. It’s been a struggle lately. I’ve been talking to more businesses who are thinking of closing because of tariffs or the economy just hasn’t been what it once was in this immediate area, and then at the same time it all it’s all tied together. The nonprofit funding has dried up, which means the state funding has dried up. And then the city funding, is tied to how much business income we have. And if I talk to a lot of businesses that are thinking of closing, that means there’s not as much money then to go into places like Prosper Portland to support business development, and so the wheels go round and round. And so a lot of it right now in the immediate is how do we. Keep going. How do we do this in a way that is helpful? And so for a lot of people right now, I’m reminding them that everything isn’t online. You have to build relationships in the community.

    You have to talk to other people. You have to share and collaborate with others. And that’s always been a part of it. But when you’re a digital marketer, that’s maybe not always like the front and center. Piece of it, necessarily. I’ve been really fortunate too that I built my own community and the conversations we have in the online Women Conquer business community have been really great because there are some people who’ve been there for three years now. And so everybody’s really comfortable. It’s a really safe space and very supportive. And the question comes up a lot, like, how are we supposed to do marketing in this environment? Where it seems like the world is on fire like every day, and. And then at the same time, I’m navigating like crazy pants changes to marketing at the same time, and so I just keep reminding people in all of these meetings and stuff like, okay, we do the work because we care about our communities and marketing is energy. And if we can keep showing up for our communities, it benefits yes, our business, but it also benefits the people that we serve.

    And if we stop. Marketing and if we stop talking to people because we’re scared and we have so many things going on in the world that are making us fearful for the future, if we stop talking to other people, then we’re not helping. The people that we have vowed to surf. So it’s a real conundrum because if you feel scared and you feel uncertain, it makes marketing hard.

    ’cause like I said, it’s energy. So people can like, feel that you’re tentative about something. And it may not be like the business, it may just be like you read a headline, you doom scrolled and then you walked into a client meeting or whatever so it’s a really. Hard time to be a business owner.

    If you are mission driven and , if you have feelings about what’s going on right now it’s a hard time. And so really it I was putting together next week’s newsletter yesterday, and there’s actually like a link. In there that talks about like less doom scrolling more books.

    And it’s about just read and don’t read the book online. Read an actual physical book, so that you’re not putting yourself in a place where you could suddenly start scrolling something else, and and I bought myself, they sell like iPod lookalikes for $60 now, and I bought myself one so I can.

    Put my music on an iPod and go for walks without having my phone with me. And we just have to separate ourselves from a lot of the noise. It’s good to be aware, but like, when it comes to running a business in an environment like this, sometimes we have to protect our peace or it’s gonna be too much for us.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: We have to protect our peace and. That resonates so much because we do ’cause it’s constant fire hose out there, so if we don’t pull away from the fire hose, we will get watched downstream. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you for saying that. And this is from you working in like in depth so much about digital strategy and even though I am a marketing major and I’ve.

    Earned a digital strategy certificate. I discovered what I like about marketing, which is more the idea of it and reaching people in authenticity and creativity. And what I don’t like about it is things like ad words and all the machinations that can go into marketing. And what I have noticed about you is you understand all of these things and bring.

    Marketing to light in such a holistic fashion that it’s still important and yet it doesn’t need to be. It is still a game in a way. It’s always a game. It’s a game to get views. It’s a game to be noticed. I understand that part, but you make it really authentic and. That’s one of the things I appreciate and yet deeply digital and your understanding of ai, which to some people sounds new, but I know AI’s been around for 20 years.

    It’s just the incarnations are so rapidly growing and the use of it is, I don’t even know how to express it. The use of it seems to be like. Not just one train it. It’s almost like an airport and every plane flying out is like the AI doing something without us gathering information. Also, creating some things that are good, creating some things that are potentially nefarious and trying to understand it all at once.

    It’s like trying to understand how an airport works. It seems big, there’s a lot going on and in airport working where there’s no people. It’s just imagine that going on every day. Yeah. That’s how AI feels to me. It’s almost, I know it’s out there. I know it can be useful and it’s very large.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. There’s a few things that you said that I wanted to touch on, if that’s okay. Like 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Sure. 

    Jen McFarland: Absolutely. Sometimes people say that that what I, that I only help people with marketing basics, and I’m like, no, you don’t understand. I make marketing so approachable that it sounds basic and it’s not that I do basic things, it’s that I give people.

    Like a modular approach so that they can figure it out for themselves. And sometimes it’s really technical and sometimes it’s not. And the big thing that I’m excited about right now is that I’m helping people with something that it doesn’t have a sexy name. I’m sorry but it’s capacity aware marketing.

    So it’s like you only have so much capacity in any given day. To do things, and you have to market your business. So like, how can you fit this in, and so it like changes the conversations with people where, they’re like, I wanna do this, this, this, this, and this. And I’m like, okay, but you have a whole business to run.

    Is this really reasonable? And so I’m trying to really encourage people to ask those types of questions to really think about what they can, what their marketing strategy actually is, so that they can build it for success. Instead of saying that you’re gonna do 150 things and feeling like a failure because you did 20, like you should feel like a success because you did 20.

    And it’s just what you had capacity to do. So if we can build the capacity from the beginning that gives people more opportunities to succeed when it comes to things like ai. And it’s so tricky, because I and AI has become so. It has disrupted marketing more than Elon Musk buying Twitter, which is now X or more than TikTok hitting the scene and now.

    The US splintering off TikTok into its own formation with horrible, even more horrible privacy policies than we’ve ever seen. Like I know, I feel I sound like Trump. It’s the worst that we’ve ever seen, but it literally is the worst we’ve ever seen in terms of a privacy policy. AI has disrupted everything.

    And when it came, I remember it was right after I had hired Alti and I said there’s this thing chat, GPT. I don’t know if it’s gonna be a big deal or not, because I’ve been using AI for five or six years, and then I was actually surprised when that was the thing that like everybody latched onto is a big deal, but it’s terrible for the environment.

    We know this, it’s just as bad as crypto is for the environment. And at the same time I find that I have to use it so that I can compete with everybody else. And so it’s like a real, it like. It can be so cool. And then it also gives me some heartburn to use it and and I think that there’s a real struggle with that right now.

    You’re seeing it right now where a lot of people are saying like they don’t wanna see the junk. They wanna see the potential for what it can do, but then it’s also like a huge privacy risk or, it’s not even a risk, it’s just a threat really, to the privacy. And then, so there’s so many ways that we can look at the AI conversation, like in a silo from a marketing perspective.

    As a professional, I have to use it at least in some ways because I’m gonna get left behind, and also doesn’t mean I have to like it all the time, that I don’t like what it does. And I certainly don’t like the people in charge of it because I don’t think they’re using the right governance.

    I used to say that Claude and Anthropic had the right governance, but right before coming on this call, I read that they have lifted their guardrails, which was what made them so special for military purposes at least. And that is terrifying, because it still makes a lot of mistakes and the guardrails are what protects us from some of this stuff.

    I don’t. So I am very conflicted about ai. I help people navigate it. I do use it and and I’m concerned. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. Thank you for that. And for listeners, this is February, 2026 in a conversation that will span 

    Jen McFarland: a long 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: time, a lot of, a long time. But sometimes it’s good to make a record and make a mark in time.

    And I agree with you. You said it very, very, very well. And with that, what makes you optimistic? 

    Jen McFarland: Oh, like so many things, I’m like, I’m really optimistic about the generations that are coming after. Like I’m definitely not one of those people that’s like, oh, but we used to do it. Right. Except for drinking out of hoses.

    I still think that was okay. But I think that, like aside from that, the new generation they really excite me and it makes me really hopeful. I think that also with, everything I just said about ai and I said all that stuff before, aside from the anthropic comment, like all of this stuff is pretty timeless.

    Like all of those issues existed like three years ago. They’ll exist in three years too. So I’m optimistic because younger people as digital natives, as people who like. Understand the technology and how it works in ways that, like people older than me don’t, you know, because they grew up with it, like in their hand.

    They have a different way that they relate to work. They have a different way that they relate to the world and what they want. I’m seeing some really exciting conversations around the environment that have never happened before. And that makes me really optimistic. And, I’m optimistic about business.

    We survived this before, and and we’ll make it this time too. And it’s just, we just it just means that if you were in business, say during the pandemic, it’s almost like that again, where you have to really like, be agile and think about it. And I do feel like, we came through the pandemic and we were better.

    I think if we come through this we’ll be better. It’s just a matter of what it looks like and I don’t know, but that’s exciting too. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. But I’m always optimistic, my, my tagline that I don’t use nearly enough is fine joy marketing your business.

    And that’s why I like protecting your piece is so important because. If you don’t, you stop being joyful and optimistic and that’s really important for all of us. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. Find joy marketing your business and it can be fun. 

    Jen McFarland: Oh, absolutely. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: To make an expression that people resonate with can be really joyous.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah, and like marketing can be fun as long as you don’t listen to somebody who tells you you have to do. X, y, z like when you don’t want to do the things that you enjoy when it comes to marketing your own business. Yeah. There are people everywhere that, that need what you offer. So it’s about saying I like to do these things, and then doing it.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, 

    Jen McFarland: It sounds simple. It’s not you have to do, put some thought into it. But but yeah, everybody can do it and you need to do it your own way. That’s how you stay optimistic and hopeful, I think. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. And it gives some agency, may I share some data with you? 

    Yeah.

    Data. So I, I geek out on Nielsen every once in a while and they’ve done several studies on social enterprise and consumers, and I think it was 2014 and then another round 2017 where they said that. Two thirds of consumers globally are willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company has good values.

    And then the later one was about 73% were millennials. And I’ve always thought, and where I come in my work is, okay, great. There’s somebody out there who’s got great values as a business and somebody’s looking, how do they find each other? And that’s where marketing comes in. And that’s where the big gaps have been.

    And as a consumer, sometimes I am delighted when a company is very expressive about their values. And I have a friend that says, market your values like a product. Yeah. And yet I get so frustrated sometimes with the. The companies that I know have great values and I can’t find it anywhere unless I’ve had coffee with the person and they bring it up as an aside and say, oh yeah, by the way, we, we helped a village, or we help a village in some country, and they’ve done amazing things, but it’s nowhere.

    So that’s part of it. And then there’s a couple of other things that I’ve heard along the way that just helped me get through these times. And it’s like running a business, enjoying it, and being part of a community is an act of resistance. Also the other one that is just as important as working hard is rest as an act of resistance.

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And that’s what I’m working 

    Jen McFarland: on right now. I am not good at rest at all. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And in a way it’s interesting though. I find being in conversation with you here restful. It’s like it’s, it brings me. Fun. Yeah, its fun. It brings me joy and we all find our own things. Sometimes it’s not always sleeping, but you’re also talking about handling a book instead of digital.

    It gives the brain a break, and it may be different forms of rest, but business itself and how your values have always resonated to me, that’s, I think, one of the things I enjoyed from the first meeting and how dedicated you are to helping others. 

    Jen McFarland: The one thing that I will say that I, that also makes me optimistic or could be like one other tidbit to share, is that with all of this AI stuff it has made people less trustful of brands that are not forthright about their values, that aren’t talking about what they do.

    And so the underlying thing is that. Moving forward. So starting with this year, it really is about trust. So think about how you can get people, how you can share what you do so that people trust you. And a lot of times that comes back to things like values, impact, being integris in what you are doing, conscientious, like all of those types of things lead to.

    Customer trust, and so it’s do good work, have honest conversations. If you can’t do the work, tell people and help them find somebody else. There’s a lot of things. And so that actually makes me very hopeful too, that people aren’t just believing what the AI overlords are saying.

    They’re wanting to find and be in community with people that they trust. And so marketing is really about trust and I like that better than marketing being about AI and what it can make because it can’t make things that you and I can do. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, I agree. And even metrics. It’s nice to get the analytics, it’s nice to see how to tweak and adjust and, but I love that.

    Moving forward, it’s about trust. What more would you like to add and how can people reach you and how can people get on that newsletter?

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. I don’t know what else to add except, yeah I do think it’s important to get off. I also think that’s how we build better community among people that we don’t agree with, is to get them off of their devices and have real conversations. ’cause people say stuff online that they would, I hope it would never say to an actual person.

    So the more conversations that we can have the better I think we are as a community. I am excited about the fact that trust is just so critical right now. And I think that that’s gonna stick with us for a long time. You can find me all over the internet at Women Conquer Biz and then that’s my website.

    WomenConquerBiz.com. The newsletter is at WomenConquerBiz.com/newsletter and that’d be the easiest way to subscribe. I’ve also been very good about putting it on the bottom of blog posts and on every page to try and make it as easy as possible. The newsletter is super fun and it’s informative and really focused on.

    Small businesses, local businesses and then people who work in professional services to an extent as well. So coaches, consultants, experts which is probably why you like it, Kim, as an expert. And yeah. So yeah, find me. Let’s hang out. Let’s have coffee. Let’s chat. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. I love getting your newsletters and they’re the kind of newsletters I like to share, so I hope everyone will tap into that.

    And the last question is, if you could have dinner with anyone living or deceased up to three people, one, two, or three people, who would they be and why? 

    Jen McFarland: Okay, so this is hard because there are so many people. But I decided to go with the three that came. Right away, like top of mind. And my guess is it’s possible that one of these people you’ve never heard of, so that could be interesting.

    So first, the first two people that you’ve heard of. One is Amy Poehler because she’s funny and fun and feminist. The next one is Ichiro Suzuki, ’cause he’s my favorite baseball player of all time. And the third person is Effa Manley. Who is the only woman in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. She was a civil rights activist and she owned a Negro League team with her husband and helped first of all, helped get African Americans into Major League baseball.

    And then also was really helpful to players so that they had income after. ’cause like back in the early days, baseball players did not make enough money to live and so she helped them with finance. Then, like I said, she was integral into the civil rights era and I just think she would be interesting to talk to.

    When I learned about her, I was like, wow, that’s so cool. Ichiro Suzuki has given the most money of any former player to the Negro League Museum to help keep the history of baseball alive. And and I just think he’s an interesting guy. He played for 20 years in Japan and then played another 20 years here.

    When we lived in Arizona, we would go to spring training games and he just had the most interesting routine before a game, like to get ready. And I just thought, that’s just so cool. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That blows me away. First of all, names I’ve never heard Amy, of course, no, but don’t know personally, but it’s what also strikes me about those two people is in their worldview.

    They did something small that was really mighty and not small. Globally, small, but not small to the people that they were serving, that those things were huge and how we don’t all have to spread broad and do big things Sometimes. It’s the deep niche and serving people. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: In a narrow sense and locally that can make some of the biggest differences.

    And when you were talking about those two that really struck home that I know nothing about baseball, I don’t know anything, but the fact that they helped people knew how to do it and made a difference that’s lasting. 

    Jen McFarland: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Is something we can all think about in whatever niche we might wanna operate in.

    That’s amazing. 

    Jen McFarland: I guess that’s something else about me. I am. I love baseball. We have season tickets to the Pickles, which is our little Portland Pickles, wooden bat league. And and so yeah, the more I’ve learned about baseball, like there are these people who have like really helped with the community and then as they’re like butterfly wings, that have an impact beyond the immediate circle and, amy Poller would just be a kick, like Parks and Rec. I could relate to that on so many levels as a former like city employee. And and so yeah. And I just think that she would be fun and interesting to talk to. But yeah, I mean there are a lot of people who’ve done really big things and certainly I had some people in mind like JFK, who started the Peace Corps. But I’ve read some things about him that I find very troubling, so I’m like, I don’t know if I’d really wanna talk to him, as a person. These are people that I’ve read enough about that I think I would actually like, they would probably talk to me and be interesting.

    So yeah that’s why. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I appreciate that so much. What a delight. I appreciate you and I can see what people Amy Pohler, ’cause you make me laugh and have her you two in a room together, I think really something 

    Jen McFarland: you should come to be. Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Fly on the wall. I’ll bus the table and.

    Bring you dessert. Thank you so much. This is a delight. Everyone, I appreciate you listening. This is Kim Allchurch Flick signing off and wishing you a good day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Jen McFarland

    Headshot of Jen McFarland smiling.

    Jen McFarland is a marketing strategist, former City of Portland digital transformation leader, and founder of Women Conquer Business, a mission‑driven consultancy helping women solopreneurs build sustainable, scalable marketing. After a decade of shaping policy and public‑facing digital services inside government, she saw firsthand how small businesses are underserved and often preyed upon. She built her business to change that. Jen blends deep expertise in digital strategy, SEO, and AI‑driven marketing with a values‑based approach centered on accessibility, clarity, and real‑world results. She now helps women‑owned businesses cut through overwhelm, build marketing they can sustain, and grow with confidence.

  • Low-Waste Living and Climate Action with Alex Gamboa Grand of Way of Being

    Low-Waste Living and Climate Action with Alex Gamboa Grand of Way of Being

    Alex Gamboa Grand joins Kim Allchurch Flick to discuss her journey into climate action and founding Way of Being, a Portland low-waste retail shop and e-commerce business launched in 2019 to make sustainable habits more approachable through education and product alternatives.

    Alex discusses conscious consumerism, the limits and misinformation of recycling, and the need to reduce consumption, plastic, and waste while staying nonjudgmental and recognizing different entry points such as health and wellness.

    They cover examples like toothpaste tabs, refillable or solid personal-care and cleaning products, safety razors, packaging-first purchasing, bidets reducing toilet paper, and innovations from brands like Dirty Labs, Under Luna, Kha, and Axiology.

    Alex shares optimism about cultural shifts toward less convenience, local resilience, and Project Drawdown’s high-impact household actions including reducing food waste, eating more plants, efficient homes, cleaner transport, and better composting and recycling.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Welcome And Introductions

    00:57 Alex Origin Story

    02:47 Climate Awakening

    04:29 What Is Way Of Being

    07:36 Small Habit Swaps

    08:59 Business Obstacles

    12:21 Recycling Reality Check

    16:33 Plastic Free Innovations

    19:29 Packaging First Mindset

    23:41 Toilet Paper Rethink

    28:53 Reasons For Optimism

    32:06 Hollowed Out Towns

    33:20 Supporting Local Business

    33:54 New Sustainable Innovations

    34:59 Tariffs And Supply Chains

    37:23 Seven Climate Actions

    42:09 Zero Waste Social Influence

    44:55 Costa Rica Lessons

    46:54 Where To Find Way Of Being

    48:10 Beauty Without Toxins

    55:21 Small Makers Big Impact

    56:21 Dinner With The Obamas

    58:30 Final Thanks And Wrap

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone, and welcome. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, and today we’re talking about the undeniable power of individual actions to mitigate the climate crisis and make the world a better place for more of us. This is what Alex Gamboa Grand. Alex is the co-founder and showrunner of way of being a low waste shop.

    She’s a teacher and a friend offering supplies, education, and encouragement to support a sustainable, intentional, and delightful lifestyle where small everyday actions create a better world. She’s also an instructor and speaker, and she’s passionate about social entrepreneurship, conscious consumerism, and the power of individual actions.

    Thank you for being here and welcoming Alex.

    Alex Grand: Thank you so much for having me.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. So what has been your journey and what inspired you along the way to be in this current time? 

    Alex Grand: Yeah, it’s such an interesting question. I think it’s interesting for everybody to reflect on that. What are the things that got us to where we are? And what I think about is, even when I was really little I remember, I grew up in a very like Christian environment and one of the things that I think really set in with that for me is the idea that we all have a purpose and this idea that we all have these different strengths and qualities and interests and passions and, the belief that we’re supposed to use those things to contribute in some way to the world.

    I always have felt that always really resonated with me. Okay, yes, I’m here for a purpose and like it’s, to contribute, to serve. The world in a way. And as I’ve gotten older, I really, I also have this belief that everything is interconnected. And everything we do does affect the whole.

    And that I think sometimes when I say that to people it sounds like overwhelming, that’s like too much pressure to put on yourself. But I think it’s actually an exciting opportunity, to live your life intentionally. And for me that’s always been really big.

    I’ve just been someone that, we see so many examples throughout history. I’m also a big I dunno if movie buff is the right way to say it, I’m a movie lover and I studied screenwriting in college. One of the things that was really interesting to me about that is I love looking at humans just like different characters and seeing how everybody has all these really unique things to them.

    Everybody has a unique story, but we all have something to bring to the table. And I’m really fascinated by that, like by the, by how the individual and like our unique individuality contributes to the whole in this way. And for me now I’m working in this like climate action space through my business way of being.

    And it’s just been one of those things like climate is. When I was a teenager, and I remember my dad first took me to sa Inconvenient Truth. It just kinda lit something in my brain of everything I’m saying about contributing to the whole what is more holistic, what is more important to everyone on this planet, every living thing on this planet than taking good care of our planet.

    Back in the day it used to be like I was a really avid recycler. That was what we knew that we could do on an individual level. So I was like, going through the, my, the trash bins at my high school and sorting out the recycling and stuff. And then as I got older I learned, there’s things, how we eat, the things that we purchase make a big difference and all of that kind of.

    Coincided and around the time that me and my business partner decided to start our business all those things started coming together. Like I felt okay, I need to do something. I also wanna remind people of their individual power, their individual agency and how they can contribute.

    And also just like the knowledge of recycling hasn’t, is not enough or it’s not really the solution. And I get it. I’ve just been getting more and more excited about all the other things that we can do. And so yeah, that’s what I feel like my mission is to use my voice and platform and, whatever levers I have at my disposal, which, and right now is my business to help encourage people to, use their daily lifestyles intentionally.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s amazing. Tell us a little more about way of being. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah. So Way of Being is a low waste retail shop. We have a e-commerce shop way of being doco and we have a brick and mortar shop on Hawthorne in Portland. And me and my really good friend Lindsay, we started way of being back in we launched our online store in 2019, but back in 2018 was when we started first envisioning what it could be and starting to share content and things around it.

    But really it was, we were motivated by, okay we can’t wait for the government to make, do all these climate actions that we know it could be making. We can’t wait for all these big corporations. But Lindsay and I had actually also just gotten MBAs around that same time, and so it was really clear to us the power that business has.

    To, to shape the world we’re living in and how much businesses are shaped and influenced by consumers. Absolutely, that’s whatever we’re spending our money on is what we’re telling companies to keep making or to keep doing. We were really passionate about conscious consumerism and like in the, on the climate note, we also, we’re starting to get really excited about this zero waste movement.

    That was all about, reducing as much of your packaging waste, food waste as possible, like avoiding plastic as much as possible, switching from disposable goods to reusable goods and that kind of thing. So we were both adopting these lifestyle habits and we just saw, that is an amazing movement and people that are really trying to like, commit to a zero waste lifestyle, it’s very impressive and like noble.

    But we also saw that there’s like a kind of a gap. There’s all these other people we knew that really care about the environment and just don’t really know what else they could be doing. And there are so many other things. It’s, we really felt we don’t need everybody doing ev doing everything perfectly there, but there everyone can do something.

    For us it’s like you can change the way you brush your teeth. You can just use a different toothpaste or a different toothbrush and that makes it a huge difference. And just the amount of waste that builds up, you can change, the shampoo you’re using, you can take it to the dish soap, laundry detergent.

    All these things have all these myriad benefits beyond just avoiding waste. They have benefits because you’re reducing toxins like in your body and in the environment. They. They can be more cost effective over time. There’s like all these benefits to them and we just saw, ooh, we’re getting really excited about these things.

    We loved finding all the solutions and we wanted to make it easier, more approachable and more exciting in a way, to, for people to learn about these really small everyday habits that they could change that would really add up and make a difference, especially if more and more of us are doing it.

    So yeah, we actually started out just sharing a lot of educational content. We wrote blog posts every week and did like informational social media posts. And then we launched our online store in 2019 and, we’re still going. It’s really actually amazing to see all the people who have been with us all this time and, just who have been open to changing a habit or two over time.

    That’s been really exciting 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and changing habits can be. It’s not like a switch that goes off sometimes. It takes some practice, doesn’t it? 

    Alex Grand: Totally. I, all the time I hear in fact, toothpaste tabs is one thing, like toothpaste tabs are basically a solid version of toothpaste. They look like little MITs, basically, you pop ’em in your mouth, chew it for a couple seconds, and then it turns into toothpaste in your mouth.

    And I’ve heard multiple people that have purchased them, but it’s just been sitting on their counter because it’s just a little bit, there’s like a little extra mental effort to just do a new, do something new. But we have plenty toothpaste tabs are also like one of our, some of our bestselling products too.

    So there’s plenty of people that have tried them and love them, but it’s, there is like a mental thing to it where it’s a little extra friction. We get in our comfort zones with certain things and I think that’s a big part of. What is challenging in this moment, as I think a lot of us are very like overwhelmed and adding like one more, one more thing to the list can be, can feel overwhelming.

    Even more overwhelming 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: in Indeed. And I think part of it in my life is thinking about making change in all sorts of different areas of life all at once. That can be overwhelming, but doing it one step at a time 

    Can start to create new habits. And along the way, what have been some of the challenges and obstacles for a way of being and for your lifestyle and encouraging others?

    Alex Grand: In terms of obstacles, there’s, a few different types of obstacles. There’s just, running a business and keeping it going for, this long, we’ve been in business for six years now. There’s, the obstacles around, our customers.

    And like I said on the customer end, I think it’s really that thing. It’s like there’s a lot, it can be frustrating sometimes to feel like, oh, we have so many different, solutions to things that like people could switch to. There is sometimes it, and for me it’s I was excited about it.

    So it’s different. I have a different point of view than somebody who, like we’re trying to convince. And so I think for us it’s one of the obstacles that I’ve made peace with is, people have to come to things in their own time. There’s no pressuring, there’s no, and certainly for us, like a big part of what we wanted our brand to be about is not, is nonjudgmental because we felt like there’s a lot in the environmental space, there’s a lot of like finger pointing and shaming over people not doing things the way you think they should be doing them.

    And we really didn’t wanna be about that ’cause we don’t feel like that’s welcoming. We don’t feel like that’s persuasive, in our, political climate in the last, decade too, it’s something I’ve noticed is like the more you judge people and shame them, like the less that you’re gonna convince them to, be on your side.

    For us it’s just been about, it takes time. Sometimes people, everybody has their different entry points. And now what we’re seeing is like a lot of people who weren’t really motivated from a sustainability point of view are motivated from a health and wellness point of view. And that there’s no wrong way.

    Like everyone can have different entry points, everyone can have different motivations. Sometimes it’s just the right time in your life. Something that I’ve been, that I’ve been seeing actually this year, just among my peers is and even actually in culture, like there’s this whole analog movement that like a lot of, even a lot of younger people are trying to switch to more analog versions of things.

    They’re canceling their streaming services and trying to like, read more and get vinyl and, CDs instead and that kind of thing. But to me, I’m really encouraged by, right now in this moment, it feels like there’s a cultural shift where people are trying to, they’re doing things that are less convenient.

    But they believe are either better for them or better for society or better for the environment. And that is really powerful. I think if once we take a step back and we can take a breath and see okay, the things I do actually do matter and what has been normal hasn’t really been working that well, maybe there’s something that I can do differently that’s small, that would make me feel better, would, have a positive impact on my life and have a positive, the kind of impact that I wanted to have on our culture.

    So I think that’s really exciting actually. That’s, there’s like a tension a little bit by we inherently just by existing, are challenging, like norms in the status quo. And I’m not trying to create tension there, but what’s really exciting is when people organically for their own reasons or become ready to try something new.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And I think also the other thing is information and misinformation along the way. And we’ve been told for years that recycling is a good thing. But I think you and I met as way of being, was being created. But another connection we both have is Portland State. And when I was at Portland State, I did a with a team, did a project on what was called the China Green Fence.

    And this is back in 20 13, 20 12. And the green fence was them putting up a wall not a physical one, but a wall that said, we’re not taking your recycling anymore. And I hadn’t realized until I did that research that a lot of recycling goes out on cargo ships and it’s supposed to go to China when they say no and send it back.

    It makes what was supposed to be a panacea. A good thing for all of us to recycle and feel good about ourselves to something that was way, way worse. And some of these ships would be out at sea, wondering where are they gonna dock? Because they often didn’t know what was gonna come back.

    And then, so that continued, but it at least was be starting to become a little more public. And then last year, New York Times did an article about February 14th, 2025, about what a really broken system recycling is and how giant piles of clothing land up in other countries, but also waste that is even more toxic.

    And clothing as it breaks down is mostly microplastic ’cause people are throwing away fast fashion. But other things, e-waste becomes toxic to someone else’s pe, the other people in other countries. And it was really eye-opening that maybe the panacea isn’t. Recycle, but it’s the low waste part and now there are innovations coming up, like talking about mushroom enzymes and other things that eat up plastics that are already there.

    But I think the cautionary tale is that doesn’t give us a license to throw away more plastic. It means there’s already so much there. It’ll take decades, maybe centuries to clean up. So why don’t we pull back. And go to more toward the zero waste. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah, absolutely. This is exactly, what we were, Lindsay and I were like learning about, and our minds were being blown around the time we decided to start this business because we realized, okay, yeah, recycling’s not the solution.

    And talk about interconnected by the way, like literally the stuff that you throw in your trash can, or even your recycling bin is going to the other side of the planet. And and there’s, cases of there being just like garbage piles or even from the ocean little pieces of plastic washing on the shore and like Malaysia and things.

    But it’s stuff that we’re throwing away in the US it just does matter. I think we have this outta sight outta mind thing that once we throw it away, that it’s gone, it’s properly dealt with, but really it’s not. So I exactly. That we really felt like, okay, the real solution is.

    Is just throwing less away period, one way or another. It’s consuming less, it’s being more intentional with, the packaging of the products that you’re buying. Like I said, reusable alternatives to disposables. What materials are you consuming? Are they actually recyclable?

    Just going back to the toothpaste example, a plastic toothpaste tube is not recyclable curbside and like most, most, most places. So what are all those toothpaste tubes? Doing all the toothpaste tubes we’ve ever used. What are they doing? They’re, sitting on this planet somewhere. It gives me chills thinking about it because it’s so many toothpaste tubes.

    So I’m like, I don’t wanna use a toothpaste tube. I just don’t, I’m over it. I can be done with that. And it’s, that’s at least one less thing. And I love that you’ve spoke to. The harm that, you know, even if it’s sitting in a landfill and it feels okay, that’s dealt with, it’s still, it’s just breaking down into microplastics.

    It’s leaching toxins into our groundwater. There’s no part of especially plastic, there’s no part of the life cycle that isn’t bad for us. Yeah, I get excited about, okay, let’s figure out ways to minimize our use of plastic and things that can’t be recycled or can’t be composted.

    Let’s figure out ways to avoid them. And that’s actually been a really fun part of our business is there are so many amazing innovations that have come out. There are so many creative people that have come up with. With products that allow us to reduce that waste. And some of them are innovative, some of them are like I don’t even, what’s the opposite of innovative?

    Like they’re reverting back to a simpler way of doing things. One example that’s innovative is there’s this one brand called Do Mighty that they make a skincare products that are all solid. Like their, the first product that came out was called a Jelly Serum bar, but it’s like a facial serum, but it looks like a little, it almost looks like a Jolly Rancher and you just wipe it on your skin and it comes in a recycled paper box and you keep it in like an aluminum tin that you can reuse over and over.

    But a skincare product where you literally don’t need any plastic packaging, it’s all either compostable or reusable. That’s like an incredible innovation. And it’s a product that actually works really well, which is a really important part of our business too, is it’s important for us to carry products that are really efficacious because I think.

    There was, especially in the early days of eco-friendly products, I think people really got, the perce got the perception that if you were gonna choose an eco-friendly product, it was gonna be a compromise in terms of efficacy. And that’s just not true anymore. And in fact, a lot of the more sustainable products are actually better than the conventional op.

    They work better. So that’s been really exciting to be at the forefront of that and to see all those things. But then we also have some other products that are really they’re timeless. They’re classic, like a reusable safety razor that you know. My, my great-grandfather in the house that I grew up in, there’s like in the wall, in the bathroom.

    He like used to slide all his little razor blades, which is also not the right way to dispose of your razor blades, but he would tuck them in a hole in the wall. But he was using a reusable safety razor, like a stainless steel one. And it can last a lifetime if not be something that you can pass on.

    That’s something that we carry too, which is, it’s not innovative, it’s just going back to a simpler way that worked just fine. So yeah, I think I’m excited about the ways that we’re both simplifying and innovating and I love finding those brands and those people that are doing really cool things.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And I love going into the store, which is in Portland, Oregon, but for those who can’t also online. There is so much because you have al almost every category of life there from cooking, cleaning body care, toothpaste. There’s so much there and the innovators are there. And another thing I’ve discovered is, particularly in the category of cleaning, I really decided I, I’ve gotta make a choice.

    And packaging is an interesting thing when we actually start to consider it because it’s easy to pick up a cleaner in a plastic bottle and say, but this cleaner is better. It’s plant-based and somebody who’s innovative. But there’s still that problem. And when I start to think packaging first, it completely changes the trajectory of the thought process to the purchase.

    And then what’s in these non package related or non-plastic related packages has usually. Plant-based cleaners and I did a little experiment at home in laundry and bought three different brands and started rotating them out without telling anybody. ’cause they were all incented. So there are no, clues and while trying to empty this giant Costco sized plastic bottle of laundry soap that was supposed to be eco-friendly.

    And so it took a while. But the thing is, the clothes all looked great. Nobody noticed as, ’cause I didn’t tell anybody, but one of the bonuses was once I got rid of the plastic bottles and didn’t buy anymore, the space I got back in the cabinet was enormous because mostly what I was dealing with powders and tablets that either come in.

    Tins or I’ve just ended up buying glass jars. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and that’s a great bonus to have as well. More space for something else. And it’s interesting how we think about purchases our consumer behavior is what it is. And I started looking at my own and thinking, okay, going to the store if I want salad dressing, if I lead with what salad dressing I want, I come out with a salad dressing.

    If I lead with, I’m only buying salad dressings in glass, I will refuse to buy plastic. It becomes a fast decision because it becomes all about the packaging first, and then I can still find a really good product and maybe tell others about it. And then that leads to, okay, plastic and cell dressing, where else, what other things am I going to avoid that particular type of packaging?

    And it doesn’t mean it’s a hundred percent, it’s really difficult in food to go to zero plastic waste, but there are ways to whittle it down a lot and it takes a while. It’s a mindset change. 

    Alex Grand: It is a mindset change. And that’s, I think a really beautiful way to do it is just every time you’re buying, you’re like looking for a new product.

    Look for, okay, how can, what’s a version of this product that I can get to minimize waste? And yeah, I think that’s one of the easier things is like when you’re grocery shopping, look for glass or paper or aluminum packaging instead of plastic. But a lot of the times, yeah, like condiments and things like they’ll come in glass instead of plastic and glass is easily and infinitely recyclable.

    So that’s why it’s a better alternative and less, it’s not based on fossil fuels. But it, yeah, it is relatively easy to make that switch. And then the more we do it, the more they make those alternatives. That’s really where the power is, whatever we buy, that’s what companies realize they’re gonna make money on.

    So they shift to that. And we’ve seen all these different movements. I think I talked about, I think the most obvious one for us is like organic food, because I feel like, 20 years ago you could hardly find organic food, or there’d be a really small little section in the grocery store and now you can find everything.

    Or you can find an organic corn dog. You can find organic crackers cheese, whatever. Whatever you’re looking for, you can find an organic version of, and that’s because consumers purchase those products and companies followed suit. And now, and obviously we see it with all these different food movements, yeah. Plant-based gluten-free high protein now is big but whatever people are buying, the companies really wanna follow that. So if we’re buying less plastic, they’re gonna give us less plastic. It’s a missed opportunity really not to use that, that lever that we have every day.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed consumer behavior can push change when it’s collective. 

    There, there’s another topic that hadn’t thought about that much ’cause it’s an everyday thing, but I noticed a video about the evils of toilet paper and actually listened to it and this woman was coming up with how it’s processed, how there’s toxins in toilet paper that are bad for us and bad downstream, and yet it’s prolific.

    It’s another one of those things that’s prolific. And then so started thinking about that at the same time that there’s been a increase in very inexpensive, easy to install bidets. And so we actually did that ’cause it’s kind of nice. And with that living in a place that has a septic tank for different reasons, we decided to use bide and buy the Marley’s cotton.

    They’re like toilet cotton instead reusable. And how those, the combination of a bidet and that, and I just have a pail of water with bioclean or something and put them in there and wash ’em, reuse them and how we’re almost zero toilet paper household. And then we went to Costa Rica where they’re not zero toilet paper, but the country almost everywhere has signs telling people not to flush it.

    They have wastebaskets beside, and for the most part they incinerated it, but they do not go want it going into their water stream at all. And that made me think more what did they know that we haven’t talked about and what would it look like if more and more people went to self-install, installed bidet and started changing?

    And what is it about toilet paper that we haven’t known? And I think that’s part of it, is we can make good consumer behavior decisions with knowledge when knowledge isn’t there. Or worse when the plastic companies are still saying, oh, we’ll take a hundred percent back in recycling. And that was about two years ago on a 60 minutes interview with one of the plastic CEOs.

    And we can tell just driving down the street with how much plastic is at the side of the road that. You can never get to recycling at a hundred percent. So finding that that’s a fallacy and it’s really frustrating when, because there, there are, people have motives, everybody has a motive. And what is the motive to say that recycling is still good and you could do more and more of it when that’s not the real story.

    Alex Grand: Just think about a lot of the big toilet paper companies, especially those like soft plushy ones, they’re literally chopping down rain, the rainforest to make paper for us to wipe our butts with. It’s really like sad when you think of and yeah, then the chemicals and things that are not good for us.

    The thing that’s really interesting about that example too to me is it’s very cultural. Like I think in the US we are just used to our toilet paper, we’re used to our Charmin or whatever, and we have a hard time not being attached to it. But in many other countries around the world, it’s not the norm.

    Actually I first got this awakening when I traveled to India, actually when I was at PSU through a study abroad program. And they don’t use mo. Most places that I went to didn’t have toilet paper and they had a bidet or a version of it, like a hose or something, or even like a bucket with water.

    And I was really confused. I was like, wait, what are people doing? And I asked our host, our guide who was from India, I was like, so what are you guys doing? Are you just walking around wet all the time? And I feel terrible about this ’cause I just think my tone was way too judgy. And rude what I think about it.

    But, and she kinda looked at me and she was like, well, we think you guys are gross. Like, why would you not use any type of water to wipe yourself or to clean yourself? If a bird pooped on your arm, would you not, would you just use a paper towel to wipe it? And I just thought, this is such a good example of how this is totally cultural.

    And when we don’t realize that we get really attached to something that doesn’t necessarily make the most sense. It’s just what we are used to. So I do think the more we learn about all the different sides of it and all the different alternatives and we have the opportunity to make a choice that actually does really make sense for us and others too.

    But it’s just one of those things that we’re, you get so used to doing it your whole life that it’s hard to break the habit or can be, but I think that’s where we are right now. I think actually in our culture, it’s an interesting time because we’ve seen. Especially since COVID, but we’ve just seen so many things about our status quo that have become very clear.

    Like it’s not really working that well for a lot of people in a lot of different reasons, in a lot of different ways. But I think it does push us and challenge us more to think twice. Okay. What is a better way to do everything? So I think that’s just one, that’s one example. Literally doesn’t make sense for us to chop down the rainforest, to wipe our butts.

    And then, the whole plumbing and septic system, all of that too. There’s so many elements of it, but I think it’s a good time for us to start thinking 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: twice. I agree. I, and with that, what makes you optimistic? 

    Alex Grand: All the people that I know that are trying new things, even if it’s inconvenient, like I have, I noticed within a few months this year, my friends New Year’s resolutions, they were all things that were.

    That were like going against the green. I had one friend that said she was gonna try to buy 80% of her produce at the farmer’s market, I had decided that I was gonna try to like, take public transit more. I had another friend that said they were gonna try to stop using food delivery services as much and start cooking at home more.

    And there’s all these kind of like small ways that I see that people are becoming more and more willing to do something that you could argue, creates more friction in their lives, but they just they feel that it’s better for themselves, it’s better for their communities. And I also, something that is making me optimistic is people really being, becoming more and more aware of their, the power of their dollars.

    We’ve been seeing more boycotts and there was like a general strike. In January there’s all these moments where people are using wielding their consumer power and it really has a big impact. On whatever companies that are being targeted. And so I think what the real opportunity here is to make sure we’re funneling our dollars into business, local and small businesses into mission aligned businesses that, that share our values into our own communities and causes and those things.

    To me it’s like we’re waking up to, okay, we don’t wanna give our money to businesses or causes or things that we don’t align with. But then the opportunity, I think is to really refocus on our local communities. And I’ve been thinking about this like agriculture, I think about like regenerative agriculture, this kind as opposed to mono agriculture where.

    For, actually, this is part of our status quo in the US too, is that we’ve had all these mono crops that, one farmer will have miles and miles of land that’s all dedicated to one crop, and then there could be one drought. I like a, or not even a drought, just a year of relatively low rain, or there could be a pest that comes through or flooding or something that happens and the whole, their whole crop is wiped out.

    To me, that’s like in our culture when we have. These huge businesses that we’re all giving so much of our money to, and they’re trying to like monopolize every industry basically. It’s like a monocrop it can be more efficient, it can be more convenient in the short term, it could generate more profit in the short term, but in the long term it makes us less resilient as an economy.

    And I think like refunding our energy and our resources back into small local businesses makes our communities more resilient. In general. It’s like diversifying our farm with different crops and they all nourish each other. And I think, when you look across the country, my husband and I love to go to visit national parks and we drive through it.

    One of the cool things about that is it takes you to really random little pockets of the country that you know, are not necessarily a big city or anything. And so you drive through, you see everything. And one of the things that you know has become so clear is that there’s all these communities in this country that have just been hollowed out because one, because there was one major employer in the area that left, and because that one employer left, there were not enough jobs to sustain the rest of the community.

    And there used to be these thriving downtowns with all these small businesses. But now it’s all hollowed out. So to me, I think it’s a really good time for us to really nourish our communities and to make sure that like we do have that resilience to keep going. We’re not all, we’re not putting all of our eggs into one basket, basically.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: What a good way to think about it. And small communities used to be vibrant because there was collective people traveling through and big industry creates a lot of employment. But what does it do when it leaves? 

    Alex Grand: Yeah, and 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: we’ve seen cycles like that 

    Alex Grand: and then we, yeah, we do. And like unfortunately, sometimes it just, based on their profit motives, it makes sense for them to leave.

    But yeah, there, the whole community is basically a casualty of that. There’s plenty of places right now in the country where Walmart is like the number one employer and like the only source of groceries in a certain area. And so if Walmart leaves because there’s not enough people, shopping there, basically, then there goes the whole community.

    Yeah, so I just think there should be more smaller grocery stores that we’re supporting all the small restaurants and businesses. It’s one of the things that makes Portland really special is we do have all of these amazing small businesses, but it really they require our support.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And what are you seeing in terms of, since way of being started the innovations you and Lindsay discovered, but what is, what has crept up since then as well? Are there new innovations that weren’t even there in 2016, 2018? 

    Alex Grand: I think one of the things is that things just keep getting better.

    Like for example, cleaning products I think is a great example. There are just new in, there are new innovations coming out. Like one brand that I really love, that actually is based in Portland, it’s called Dirty Labs. And I know I’m not a chemist, so I couldn’t explain to you like how it works, but they use this like BioZyme technology for their laundry detergent and dishwasher detergent and things like that.

    And it’s some of the best cleaning products I’ve ever used. It’s like the, my favorite dishwasher detergent ever. But, they’re just, it’s. Once you’ve had enough time to focus on adapting and figuring out these are like plant-based technologies, non-toxic ingredients.

    It’s pretty cool to see, how good it can get. And another thing that’s been interesting, this moment we just because of tariffs and things we’re seeing some inflation happening for sure, but we’ve also seen costs come down for products. And that is, that’s just because of.

    A number of things, but one thing is just more and more people buying them. Like the companies are able to benefit from economies of scale. So it does happen over time with sustainable products that when more people buy it, the they’re able to make the product more efficiently and at a lower price point.

    We’ve seen several things come down in price over the years, which has been really cool. And then, there’s this flopping, the flip flopping that’s happening now with inflation and the tariffs, which are definitely causing prices to increase. Without that having happened, we would’ve been seeing prices actually coming down for a lot of things.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Okay. And so it sounds like a lot of your products are also luckily made us made and some are imported, 

    Alex Grand: some are. So actually probably like 90% of our products, or I would say 90% of our vendors are based in the US and we’re very intentional about that as much as possible. There are some products that they aren’t made in the US so, we get them overseas. But even for all the products that are made locally, packaging is often still comes from overseas. There’s some component packaging ingredients. We just don’t make everything here. So almost every product has been affected by tariffs.

    So it really just shows you how how global everything has become. Even soap, a bar of soap that there’s like some ingredients that you’re getting overseas that they, we just don’t grow, we don’t grow that ingredient here or we don’t make it here, or, yeah, most the packaging, I know, especially glass packaging aluminum is off, often comes from China, yeah. Many, many things have been affected beyond even just vendors that are based overseas. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. That’s so true. And I’ve noticed that as well with talking with people who are consumer goods providers. But you’re doing wonderful things and really appreciate having you here. What other things would you like to mention?

    Alex Grand: I talked about, that there’s a lot of power in individual action, but one of the things I think is really cool is I would love to share some of, some specific actions that people can take. Yes. That make it a difference. We actually are in this really incredible moment in time where, the.

    Climate is changing, like the, the international panel on climate, inter governmental panel on climate change. As said basically over the next 30 years, the climate is going to be changing, but over the next 10 years, we have the power to take enough action that we can actually reverse the direction of global warming.

    And that’s a huge opportunity that we can’t pass up. And actually according to Project Drawdown, which is a great nonprofit that, basically measures the impact of climate solutions. They’ve said that 20 to 30% of the total emissions reductions we need to avoid the most catastrophic climate change can be done at the individual and household level.

    So not only yes, does it matter like what we do individually, but it’s way too big of an opportunity to pass up. This is really an all hands on deck thing. So I’d love to share some of what Project Drawdown has identified is like seven of the most impactful individual and household actions we can take.

    So the first one is, please 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: do, yeah. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah. The first one is reducing food waste. And there are many. Ways to go about doing that. But that’s a huge one that not only has a huge impact because food waste creates methane, which is much more potent than carbon at warming the planet. But it also can save you money if you’re, better about not letting things go bad, when you bring them home, not, overspending on product that you don’t get around to eating before it goes bad, that kind of thing.

    So that’s the one. The second one is eating more plants and less meat and animal products. And then I don’t remember the order of the rest, there’s not commuting via public transit or not commuting via fossil fuel vehicle. So either using public transit, riding your bike, carpooling, walking, that kind of thing.

    That’s one of the things that I’ve been trying to focus on this year. There’s in making your household more efficient through your appliances, through your heating, there’s a variety of things you can do. Everything from LED light bulbs to making your, toilet more efficient, your heating all the things in your household.

    So that’s huge. Solar panels is another one. Then there’s reducing plastic and virgin paper consumption. So those are some of the things that we talked about, right? And that’s really where our business is focusing. We also have some food waste. Things that help you reduce food waste. And then opting for virtual meetings and work instead of commuting is a big one.

    If you’re an employer, letting people opt for virtual when it’s possible. And then, how many was that? Is that six? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? Yes. 

    Alex Grand: What’s my last one? Let me look at my list really quick. Maybe we can. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And while you’re doing that I find myself looking at the list and listening to you and saying, yeah, I’m doing some of that.

    I can do more. Doing a little bit of an examination. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah. Okay, the last one is is focusing on your waste is recycling or composting as much of your waste as possible. So whatever you are still having to throw away, making sure you’re intentional about not putting stuff in landfill trash that could be recycled or could be composted.

    You know what I love about that list is that. Everyone can do something. The most, I think, costly one would be whatever you’re able to do to your own household. Not everyone owns their home or whatever is in a position to do that, but everyone can focus on reducing waste, food waste or reducing their plastic or paper consumption or or trying to be better about recycling or composting.

    There’s something, we all have something within our reach. So I think it’s really exciting actually that we can really all do something and make an impact. So I get really excited about that, that within my lifetime I can have seen, what the status quo has been and then see a shift and help us repair.

    Maybe within my lifetime I can actually see. Climate change start to reverse. That’s pretty exciting. And it’s way too big of an opportunity to pass up. So that’s a big part of why I get so excited about this topic and love sharing about it. ’cause I think there’s a lot we can do that we have a lot more control than we often feel like we do.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think that is one of the most important messages. You saying 20 to 30% of the changes can be at the household level. That’s all of us. And it isn’t that difficult. And I’m also noticing that it’s creating new trends that are kind of cool. Like having parties that are zero waste. Yeah. And how does one do that?

    Part of it’s selecting products by packaging and people can still get some great snacks, things of that nature with zero plastic. It just takes a little more to think about, but it also almost becomes. A competition or a badge of honor, and people are talking about zero waste parties and even yeah.

    Alex Grand: There’s something really powerful about just the influence we each have as individuals too. One person does something or you have somebody over at your house and they see that you’re using a solid dish washing block instead of, a liquid dish soap or something. And it opens people’s minds to things.

    And we’re always, whether we’re conscious of it or not, we’re always, we’re very aware of what our peers are doing. We just inherently biologically, evolutionarily we want to be accepted. We want, we, we also want to learn what’s working for someone else. Like something I’ve realized as the older I get is that we, adults talk in commercials a lot. Like we’re, we love telling each other, oh, I just tried this new yogurt. Like you have to. Or, oh, I got a new vacuum cleaner. I love this vacuum cleaner. We’ll tell each other about it, but we influence each other just living our lives.

    So I think it’s really cool to take that on as okay, this is gonna be something that I do. I don’t need to make it necessarily a big show of it, but if people see I’m bringing my own reusable Tumblr when I go to get coffee, like on a coffee date, it might remind them, oh, I could be doing that too.

    There’s little things that we’re planting seeds in just the way that we live our lives. I love it, we’re leaders whether we in intend to be or not, but I think it’s a great opportunity to, be intentional about that 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: and it can be fun. And someone else that we both know who’s been on the podcast, Avi, of detox who has single use items that are all compostable and there’s no resins in them, no it’s leaf plates even making straws now and.

    She had a sister’s wedding be a zero waste wedding, including the clothing. It wasn’t brand new. It was, they really put a lot of thought into it. And the pictures are absolutely gorgeous and everyone had fun and thinking about things in that way from little things we do throughout the day to events.

    That, that’s really something to think about. How to make an event zero waste. And then that feeds back to how many people are there, what do they learn from it, what do they take home and what can they do on a small scale throughout a day that could get to that 20 to 30% if we all think about it.

    And I’m inspired by countries like Costa Rica that are, have a lot of people really thinking along those lines. And what it boils down to is they’re also realizing that I. They were not great to their country in terms of deforestation. Over time, they deforested down to 20%, 25%, and now it’s backed up to 50% re forested because of intentionality and because small farmers are using biodiversity, but also doing the kind of things that we’re talking about here.

    How do they live their lives on that farm as well? Down to the toilet paper, down to the cleaning products, down to all of that. And there’s some of the happiest people I’m been around because they see what they’re living around and they see what they’re doing and they see the possibility and they share it with others.

    And I, I find that really inspirational. 

    Alex Grand: It’s actually really cool to me that you’re bringing up Costa Rica. My family, my dad’s side of the family is actually from Costa Rica. And I think in a way probably that has been a major influence, but it’s a great example of it’s a culture that, has made it their priority to take care of their environment their like local ecosystems.

    And you can see that it’s front and center and how good that is for the whole like a lot of Americans love going and retiring there because it just is, it’s a place that feels good. Like it from a standpoint of like the air feels clean and it feels lush and verdant, but also the culture is very, yeah, they’re like happy, they feel like they figured out some kind of balance, which I think we could learn a lot from really. So I think, and just our conversation is reminding me of like how much power there is in travel and just exposing yourself to different ways of doing things because we get so stuck in our ways and we forget that there are other ways to do things.

    So I think that’s can be really powerful too. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. I concur. It’s been such a delight to have you here. How can people reach you? 

    Alex Grand: They can always visit our storefront in Portland on Hawthorne and they can also visit us online, WayOfBeing.co. We’re also on social media WayOfBeing.co as well.

    Instagram and Facebook and all the things. But yeah, I would love to see them. I’m actually, I actually work in our storefront a lot of the time, so I’d love to chat with everybody. I love helping people figure out kinda where to start. What to focus on. I highly always recommend people starting with just one thing.

    Like when you run out of something, when you run outta your laundry detergent or you run out of your, moisturizer or whatever it is. Try to look for an alternative once you’re doing that and just start one thing at a time. And also, don’t feel like you have to start with the thing that you’re the most attached to.

    Like for me, I have curly hair. The last thing that I switched was my haircare routine because I was so worried that I was gonna have to have bad hair the rest of my life if I opted for a plastic free. And I will say that that is a hundred percent not true. But it was still like I didn’t start with the thing that I was the most precious about, so that’s another piece of advice that I would give you. But I, we can always reach out to us also. Hello, at way of being.co. We’re always happy to answer questions and help you out. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s wonderful. Can I ask about hair care products? And it reverts back to me ’cause I had a corporate life and used to color my hair all the time.

    And, but also side effect was my scalp didn’t feel great sometimes and I had to really work with my hair to get it to be this, corporate style that everybody wanted us to be. And then I just stopped, I got laid off and then COVID happened and during COVID I stopped coloring my hair and grew it out because I, my nephew inspired me because he grew his out and his hair was gorgeous and he donated it.

    I thought, well, I can do that. And now I’m on round two to donate it and to donate it. You can’t layer it and you can’t color it. And, but I’ve never had my hair feel so great. And the only products I use on it are oils and plant-based shampoos and things like that. And I was wondering what you’re seeing and if you’ve seen anything in hair and makeup that where people found it hard to let go of a norm for style be when they tried something else, that the benefit has been actually literally feeling better.

    Yeah. And the other thing I thought of was, we don’t talk about this enough, but hair color nails, all those things that are things of beauty when they go downstream, they’re carrying something and it doesn’t just go away. A lot of it’s very chemically based. So in, in that, what are you seeing in, through your store and through the innovations and.

    Alex Grand: Yeah, get how, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: how people feel about that. ’cause it’s really hard to let go of fashion style and I’ve gotta give grace for that too, because there’s a lot of pressure for people. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah, I think it’s a really good point actually. It’s one of the things that we’re most cautious, we can be more, most cautious of because, I think we can say probably, especially women, we’re often judged by our appearance and so we really don’t wanna compromise.

    So one of the things that we carry is shampoo bars. We actually do carry liquid shampoo and conditioner two by this brand called Under Luna. That’s another lo local woman-owned brand. And we also carry a couple, few different versions of shampoo bars. And I think the biggest thing is that people.

    This is almost generally I think people can almost be harder on sustainable alternatives than they are in conventional options. If they’re gonna try something new, it needs to almost be better than what they tried before. And so I think people come into it assuming it’s not gonna be good, or maybe they tried one other shampoo bar somewhere else and it didn’t work well, and so they’re like, okay, it doesn’t work for me.

    I can’t do it. But really it’s just like anything else. It’s like, you have to do some trial and error sometimes. Not everything works for everybody’s hair type. But I will say, Lindsay, my business partner and I we’re very picky about these things too. I’m the type of person that I just love trying new products and things like, I don’t like to just stick to the same product for a long time.

    So we like to have a variety of options and like I said, for different hair types and scalp types. And one of the things that I’ve seen for haircare in particular is not only do we have packaging that’s different, but the brands that we carry have an more of an emphasis on the ingredients that are really good for you from.

    From a more holistic perspective. And what I’ve seen is actually more emphasis on the, on scalp care as like an important form of hair care that we really have been undervaluing. And so actually Kha, which is one of the it’s another local woman owned brand, and they carry, they make these shampoo and conditioner stones that are really like a high quality.

    And they have really complex botanical ingredients, but she’s really emphasized scalp care. And there’s all these oils too that are really good at scalp treatments and or you can use them on your hair. But it’s really just like a more holistic way of thinking about it. It’s thinking about solving health issues through like diet and, these more like inter like fixing a problem from the inside out instead of just trying to, put a bandaid on the situation. So that’s what I’m seeing in a lot of the products we’re carrying, is that they’re getting to like the root of issues. And, for example, one product that has, it’s actually a really, it’s a new product, but it’s been a really popular, it’s from the brand under Luna.

    It’s this hop and fused growth serum. But it’s like a scalp serum, but it helps basically to make your hair like healthy, actually come out healthier. It helped something that I had never heard of before is that it helps actually. Reduce like gray hair from growing because gray hair comes from like nutrient deficiencies, like at the scalp level, which I didn’t realize.

    And I’m not an expert on it, it’s just getting to the root of problems, which I really appreciate. And I’ve had a lot of people that have told me they’ve gotten like the best hair of their life from some of the products that we carry. That’s a really good example.

    But it’s, yeah, and the same thing for makeup. It’s axiology is this other great local organ woman, Latina woman owned brand. And like they’re making a foundation that is infused with rechy and snow mushrooms, and it actually improves your skin. It’s like skincare. And people actually say the more that they use it, the less that they have to use it.

    The less they need foundation basically. It’s just the way of thinking is different. For these makers that are not only trying to remove plastic and do things that are better for the earth, but it’s like they’re trying to do things that are actually better for us too.

    Even if it makes their product, obsolete or less necessary. I said that is something that I think is really special. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I love that. And it sounds like some of these, the wisdom of these companies is coming from like long ago indigenous knowledge as well, that these mushrooms have probably been used for centuries and for some reason we in the US and other places stepped away from some of that ingredient thinking by grad chemicals and going beyond.

    But I particularly noticed with hair that it makes a huge difference to stop using the bad products because not only for the environment, but. Literally our scalps do not like having a lot of chemical onslaught. 

    Alex Grand: Yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And it makes a huge difference. So everything you’re talking about is so important.

    Thanks for all of this. And I can’t wait to look at some of these and I, I’m finding that there, as there are more innovations, it gives us more choices, which makes the choice to change 

    A little bit easier because it might be a better fit for us as individuals. And even in dog products too. There’s a dog shampoo that comes in a bar that is so much better than anything I bought for them before.

    It works really well. It’s very small, it doesn’t take out much space. The packaging is just a brown paper wrap on it, and I know what it’s made of and it actually works really well. Yeah, 

    Alex Grand: That’s just another great example of all of these individual people who are starting these businesses, creating these products.

    That’s really what we need more of in the world. And I’m, it’s really an, I think another case for supporting small bus, these small businesses and makers who are doing these things, because that’s just like one person that decided to do things a little differently. So many of them do it too, because, they had a kid and like their kid had eczema or they were solving their own issue, but from a really holistic place and now they’re creating a solution that can help a lot more people.

    But that’s who we really wanna be supporting. It’s, not these huge companies that are trying to make a product as cost efficiently as possible, and, not thinking about the end results. We need more of that. That’s exactly what we need more of. So support them. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Way of being is a shop with a lot of products in it across a broad range of needs.

    So I highly suggest everybody check it out. And our last question is, if you could have dinner with up to three people living or deceased, who would they be and why? 

    Alex Grand: The first thing that comes to mind really is like Michelle and Barack Obama. They, and actually I would like to invite my husband to come too, because he is very he is always said that Barack is like his role model, but I just think, especially in this moment in time, a, I would love to know all their thoughts on what’s going on.

    But B, I think they have also a really good perspective of how, individuals, can really make a difference with their actions. And they’re really trying to rise up this next generation of leaders. And so I, I would just love to kinda get that inspiration and insight on like where we really need people to show up.

    And, they just seem fun, like good timing. So I think that’d be lovely 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: indeed. I brought I think it dates back to maybe the first campaigns or after the inauguration, but Michelle Obama was wearing this beautiful dress and I saw it. I said, I have that dress and it is a Talbot’s dress off the rack.

    And turned out she loved that dress too. And she probably still has it. I still have it. And in 20, gosh, it’s down almost 18 years later, same dress. And it’s really nice to think of fashion that way too, as something that, that affordable, reusable, timeless. And, 

    Alex Grand: and it’s a good point actually. They’re both really intentional.

    I know Michelle she just came out with a book that talks about how intentional she was about all of her fashion choices over the years. ’cause she knew as a first lady, that’s what people are gonna be paying attention to. So she used it to highlight, American designers bipoc designers, women owned brands.

    I really appreciate that point of view and their intentionality. That’s a big value of mine. And, I just get comforted every, they’re just opt. There are people that are op, realistic but also optimistic, and we really need that energy

    I really appreciate that. I always feel hopeful and comforted after hearing them speak.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Alex, it’s been a delight. Having you hear all these points touched on, really resonate every time. I am in a room with you or you’re talking about something, you’re, the TED Talk that you did a couple years ago really inspired me to rethink things and there’s always something new and every single thought and every change is progress.

    Alex Grand: Yeah, 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: absolutely. I appreciate that. You’re so inspiring. Everyone, thank you for being here at the Mighty Measure Podcast. And we hope you have a great day. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Alex Gamboa Grand

    Headshot of Alex Gabo Grand, of Way of Being.

    Alex is Co-Founder & Showrunner of Way of Being — a low waste shop, a teacher, and a friend offering supplies, education, and encouragement to support a sustainable, intentional, and delightful lifestyle where small, everyday actions create a better world. She is also an Instructor and Speaker, passionate about social entrepreneurship, conscious consumerism, and the power of individual actions.

    10% off with the code GOODMEASURE

  • People-First Operations Powers World-Changing Work with Veronica Yanhs

    People-First Operations Powers World-Changing Work with Veronica Yanhs

    Veronica Yanhs, founder of Business Laid Bare and creator of the Orgasmic Operations Method, joins Kim Allchurch Flick for a discussion about how operations—the “how” of turning mission into action—power mission-driven businesses and nonprofits.

    Veronica shares her first-generation Chinese American journey from a planned pre-med path at Stanford to creating an interdisciplinary major blending product design, environmental engineering, and management, then consulting in operations for Apple and Nike before launching her business in January 2020.

    She argues operations are often neglected compared to sales and marketing, yet poor onboarding, fragmented systems, and “duct-tape” backends create bottlenecks, burnout, and lost revenue; she cites PMI data estimating 30% revenue loss from inefficiency in large firms and says small businesses can lose closer to 50%.

    Her approach centers human needs, pleasure, and values, begins with a month-long operations audit, and supports clients via implementation, mentoring, or fractional COO/advisory engagements.

    Veronica Yanhs: I should put this disclaimer out there. Perhaps this might be an episode you listeners want to put in some earbuds on, if this is important to you, because we want to make sure that there is consent, enthusiastic consent in terms of the conversation that we’re about to have, not because business operations is anything risque or scandalous, but my branding, if this is the first time we’re meeting, my branding is very sex and kink positive. And so I just wanna make sure that this is front and center. I’m not here to hide who I am, but sometimes people might not be ready. Or you might be in a public location and you might not be ready to share the side of you who knows, right? So I’m just putting this disclaimer out there.

    Listen Now

    Time Stamps

    00:00 Meet Veronica Yanhs

    02:11 Consent And Branding

    02:59 Breaking Family Expectations

    04:49 Stanford Pivot And Purpose

    08:04 Designing A Custom Major

    11:19 From Consulting To Founder

    13:38 Operations As The How

    20:54 Operations Ripple Effects

    24:54 The Cost Of Inefficiency

    27:25 Hidden Costs And Audits

    28:24 Hiring Without Systems

    31:01 Marketing Outpacing Capacity

    35:43 Project Management Chaos

    38:32 Does Size Matter

    40:43 Ops Audit Framework

    43:35 Implementation Takes Time

    45:15 Afterglow of Impact

    48:35 Optimism and Community

    50:44 Connect and Whats Next

    53:49 Identity as Paradigm Shift

    55:20 Dinner With Ancestors

    57:15 Closing Reflections

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. This is Kim Allchurch Flick, and I’m delighted to have a very wonderful person here with me, Veronica Yanhs. Veronica  Yanhs brings her whole unapologetic self to business.

    She’s the founder of Business Laid Bare, and the creator of Orgasmic Operations Method, where she helps mission-driven businesses and nonprofits, design people first operations that power the world changing work they’re here to make. Through her work, Veronica and her team build systems that feel good to use, run with integrity and replace duct tape backends with operations that can actually support big missions so leaders can stop being the bottleneck and focus on building the world they want to live in.

    The topic today is how operations power world changing work. Veronica, it is so awesome to have you here. 

    Veronica Yanhs: Thank you so much for having me.

    I have to say, listening to you, read, my bio I got some, the hairs kind of stood up on the back of my neck and I’m going, I, first of all I wrote that and second of all, it really does affirm why I am here doing the work that I do.

    So it’s just such an interesting experience to hear this repeated back. So thank you so much for having me. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I’m delighted. So we have not known each other long. We met a couple weeks ago at an event where you were speaking, with the benefit corporations for good.

    And I was just delighted and enthralled, so I’m so glad that you are here with operations, which I understand and I’ve always, I like business as a left brain person, the creativity of it, and I know the necessity of good operations and good finance and things like that. And I’ll always thought of it as a dry topic and then I met you.

    So we, this is not a dry topic at all. This is, gonna be fun and also super important. So tell us a little bit about your journey and what values and what insights led you actually to create business Laid bare, which is a great name by the way. 

    Veronica Yanhs: Thank you. And I guess I should put this disclaimer out there.

    Perhaps this might be an episode you listeners want to put in some earbuds on, if this is important to you, because we want to make sure that there is consent, enthusiastic consent in terms of the conversation that we’re about to have, not because business operations is anything risque or scandalous, but my branding, if this is the first time we’re meeting, my branding is very sex and kink positive.

    And so I just wanna make sure that this is front and center. I’m not here to hide who I am, but sometimes people might not be ready. Or you might be in a public location and you might not be ready to share the side of you who knows, right? So I’m just putting this disclaimer out there. So back to what you were asking Kim.

    My story is quite interesting. I’m not supposed to be here having this conversation with you. And I say this because I was supposed to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, a CPA, something with a path. So I am Chinese. I was the first generation to be born here in the States. And so my. Parents and extended family immigrated to Oregon in 19, I think 81, maybe 1980.

    And so this journey has been very much about honoring who I am. And it’s such a weird and cliche thing to say, but the reason why I say this is because in the Asian culture there’s a lot of expectations and a lot of obligations. And the parents want what’s best for you. And I know that they do it with what they know, generational trauma and all like they do the best they can and I ultimately know they’re coming from a good place.

    And sometimes you just don’t know what you don’t know. So my journey from a kid to college where I absolutely deviated from the plan, the master plan to even doing what it is I’m doing now has very much about been honoring. Who I want to be. And not only that, but who I’m meant to be. So that for me, I can leave this world a better place just a little bit than how I found it.

    And that’s been my calling.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Wow that’s beautiful to think about and thank you for sharing that. And in deviation what led you into business and operations specifically? 

    Veronica Yanhs: It all started when I was in college. So I went to Stanford because it was the best decision for me at that time. And I joined the pre-med program.

    This was years ago. I’m not freshly graduated by any means, but it all started back when I basically had my worldview just expanded because. You grow up in a neighborhood or a city or a community that is either really homogenous or you are limited to how much your worldview can expand even though the opportunities are there.

    But if you can’t get to those opportunities or your family, like for instance, my family had such a tight lid on everything that I did. This is normal for Asian cultures. It’s like you don’t know what you don’t know. So I realized that as I was watching a surgery happen, and don’t get me wrong, I still think this is awesome and stuff.

    When I was watching a really simple procedure, like I got to stand really close to someone’s bicep muscle being repaired in real time. What was interesting to me was that I remember in the operating room, I kept watching how much. The plastic waste was piling up in the trash bin, like that giant 55 gallon type trash bin to the side.

    And as someone that was born and raised in Oregon, environmental considerations are really important. And so the fact that I was just so enamored with how much trash was being accumulated, I knew that something wasn’t right. It was really scary. And so it led me to question a lot about my identity and what it is that I wanted, and was I truly happy and fulfilled and satisfied?

    And I realized that while environmental studies was a better next step from pre-med, it wasn’t my calling. And so I took leap and. The reason why I’m pausing is ’cause I’m just being drawn back to all the emotions of confusion, of feeling, a failure of shame, of like letting down my family.

    And I went, oh hey, what is product design? No idea, right? Because I’m so focused on engineering, medical school, being a lawyer. So product design was something in the arts and creative side that we didn’t talk about growing up because it was not useful. And I am so glad that I discovered the product design department because I was then able to not only utilize the skills that I was meant to utilize because this was not something that was.

    Supported when I was a kid, like, creative outlets and creativity was never there. And so when I joined the product design department, I also realized that it was not everything that I wanted either because there was also not environmental considerations made. So I ended up creating my own major at Stanford that combined product design, civil and environmental engineering, and like business and management.

    But the major at Stanford was called Management, science and engineering. And so it basically allowed me to create the major that was the triple bottom line without me knowing it, balancing people, planet, and profit. And it was completely accidental. But I knew that that’s how my brain was.

    It’s like I can’t just be in one category. I have to be like a twister board where I have all of my limbs touching the things that are important because I deem it so, and that’s how my brain works. It’s like a spider web. It’s like a mesh. And so to be able to create products and solutions that also cared and had environmental considerations of where the material was being sourced from to even end of life because things inevitably end up in the landfill, was important to me as well as if I’m gonna be designing things, I wanted to make some money from it.

    So having some business management skill sets added into myself, created curriculum, made so much sense. And I remember the dean of engineering going, we have 144 majors for you to choose from. Why can’t you pick one? And we have a reputation to protect. So if you do go down this route. Stanford, they have a large, very large endowment, so I understand he’s protecting the institution.

    He’s like, if you do go down this route, most likely, your major request will be declined. And I still, something about that just made me go forth anyways. Despite everybody telling me that I was throwing away my college career and education and time and money and all that stuff, something within me just kept saying, keep going, keep going.

    And so shockingly, to everyone’s surprise, especially mine, it was approved in 10 calendar days, not 10 months. So clearly I had a really compelling reason right. To do this. And I got all the advisors on board. I had three advisors from three different departments. I had my curriculum because, he specifically was like, I do not want you basically majoring in underwater basket weaving.

    We have a reputation to protect. That’s fair. And yeah, making the most out of that education for me meant that I had to create my own path, do things my way. And when I graduated, it was such an interesting full circle moment where I went, oh, wow. Ever since I was little, even up until college, what I realized was that I was listening to every voice, but the one that mattered, and that would be my voice. So it was a really affirming moment for me that I needed to go through life doing things my way and to honor the goodness that everyone’s intentions had for me.

    Whether it be in the institution, your family, your community. It doesn’t matter, but it’s like at the end of the day, what do I want from all this? Because I’m the one that has to live my life and look myself in the mirror. So that is why I dialed it back all the way to college because that influenced why I decided to start my own business.

    Because through my education, through the connections that I made, the networking and consulting, I ended up landing some pretty fun gigs with Apple and Nike on the operations consulting side. And I realized that I wasn’t just good enough anymore to make money. It wasn’t as fulfilling. So I thought to myself, how can I make a difference?

    How can I work for myself, create my own schedule, and also make a difference to the types of organizations for or nonprofit that I want to make a difference for? And the only answer was to start my own thing. So it happened two months before the world shut down. I started my business January of 2020.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Spectacular timing. You didn’t know a couple months before everything started closing. What a story. And it, it resonates with me and probably so many people who are listening who have been given a path or expectations on these things and have not created their own thing. And where’s their happiness and where is, where are those feelings?

    I think that speaks, it’s gonna speak to a lot of people and what a wonderful way to look at it as well. And you and I have something in common, which is ex exposure to medicine. And I worked in medicine and also in awe. Absolutely love it. And absolutely appalled by the way. There is such an incredible amount of ways and yes, sterility is very important.

    That’s part of the reason. But who knows? Maybe we can. Think about designs to help change that, but I love your story and what you’re doing and the happiness shows on your face too. I think being able to fulfill a life that, that it’s created the way you see your value and the way you can contribute and it can make such a difference.

    And maybe that’s why it, I love having you here too. It’s on your face and it’s so much, you’re such a joy to be with. So what are some of the problems you see and, what kind of solutions come to your mind or that you’re creating for your work and the people around you? 

    Veronica Yanhs: Yeah. And I feel like I should talk a little bit about my business to answer that question.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes, 

    Veronica Yanhs: indeed. When I think about the problems that are happening in our world, it feels so massive. It’s like I’m one person. It’s really intimidating because for me, integrity is one of my top core values. And to me, integrity is about doing the right thing, whatever that means for that person. And so I started this business because I wanted to help more people and help the types of clients that I wanted to work with.

    I call them impact driven or mission driven, like you are creating this or running this organization or business because you want to leave the world a better place as well. And so what I learned from my product design days as a student was that the ideas are plentiful. The what’s? Why’s like why you wanna do something?

    Why does this business or nonprofit exist? Easy. Very easy to answer the what’s. These are the goals, the missions, the vision, the values also easy. But what I noticed was that the how, bringing those ideas to life, bringing that mission statement to life, like actualizing the mission statement or the goals that you’ve set to make a difference in your community, was the bottleneck and is very much so the bottleneck to this day.

    And so this is where operations comes in. Operations at the end of the day, when you strip down all the terms and the industry standard jargons and all that stuff, it’s really just the how. How your business takes action via the people, the software, the customers, the clients, the stakeholders, the board members.

    The volunteers, it’s about how, or even, yeah, the automations, like if I didn’t call that one out, that’s important because action is what moves the work forward. You can’t wish your mission statement into reality. You can’t will it? Sure you can pay other people to do it, but again, that still requires action on people’s parts.

    And so operations for me is about how do we take something from idea to reality in the most, for me, human-centric and pleasurable way. So this is where my education from Stanford has come in really well. We learn about how to design for people. Stanford’s really well known for their human centric design concept.

    Meaning, yes, the engineers are, say responsible for when you’re driving a car. They’re responsible for making sure that the engine works and those things connect. But what I learned about product design was that product design pretty much stopped, and engineering started with what people stopped being able to see and feel, touch, and interact with.

    So I think the steering wheel, the dashboard, how the seatbelt clicks, the sounds that they hear when they open the car door, is everything is designed, everything is intentional. Like I’ve seen documentaries where BMW spends so much time perfecting the door sound even, or the dinging sounds like none of this is accidental.

    And so for me, I learned a lot about human-centered design. And then when I went to consult for Apple, Nike. All the business like this was before I started my business. What I noticed was that operations was very much still an afterthought or something organizations checked off or something that was just so arbitrary that we’ll hear lots of solopreneurs or small teams go, we’re too small for operations, so we don’t even think about it.

    We’re so focused on our sales and marketing, and so for me, when you can make operations infused with your core values and humanity, because we are not robots, we’re multifaceted, complex, ever evolving, emotional being, so why not have our operations again, the how the engine that makes us go or the organizations go be the same.

    So when something feels good, when there is pleasure involved, not only. Is it more likely to be sustainable? You’re gonna stick with it. It’s gonna feel like second nature, it’s like the back of your hand. So this is where efficiency naturally comes in. So you hear things like streamlining and efficiency and all that stuff, right?

    That’s important, don’t get me wrong. And it has financial ramifications as well as emotional, like human ramifications about burnout and whatnot. So when things are people first and pleasure filled, that’s how I like to say it. It means that we’ve honored the people that are going to be actualizing these statements and systems so that it is sustainable and there is a sense of longevity infused in it.

    And when people are taken care of, they’re not just here for a paycheck. And all of this just benefits the mission statement at the end, or the impact statement or the desire because it is easier for you to keep something up. Do the thing if it feels like the back of your hand and it feels natural and that we have honored how the people needed to build whatever it is, systems or the operations that they needed so that we can actually see the world change for the better.

    Because if you one nightstand your operations, if you just check off the operational box that you quote unquote looked at your operations, that mission statement is not going to hold. Like lasting and meaningful change does take time. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, I concur with you so much. And do you get a sense that people may not even understand what the word operations means, even though it’s a common word, but it’s to each person.

    It may have a different, they may have a different perception. 

    Veronica Yanhs: Absolutely. So it, I feel like operations is the middle child. So to go back to your original question, which I’m so good at side questing, this is, it’s this work I see all. This is the work that I see that needs what I do and what informs my work.

    Because there’s a lot of good people and organizations out there that want to leave the world a better place. Their whys and their what’s are so strong. This is where business laid bare comes in. This is where I know that I am meant to change the world with this business by helping our clients change the world and however it is that they’re looking to change the world.

    So little bits add up at a time. So that then answers your question. It leads your question really nicely. Because it is such a foreign topic. Operations, I feel like we’re the middle child. Like when I talk about. What, well, what middle child, like, what are we comparing ourselves to? The other children in the family, our sales, marketing, branding, building a team, having good product market fit, go to market strategy.

    Don’t get me wrong, these are all important, but the glue that holds it all together is your operations. You can think of it as like your nervous system in a way, like your body’s central nervous system where at least, let me give you an example about like how I see this and tell me if this makes sense to you.

    Say, I kink my neck because I slept on my stomach and I’m not supposed to sleep on my stomach. Well, that pain in my neck oftentimes refers to the other side. So if I kink the left side of my neck, I often feel pain on my right shoulder or sometimes even down to my hip. And. This referral pain can then lead to migraines, lack of sleep, irritability, like it just all ripples, right?

    Because one part of your nervous your body’s muscles and central nervous system is jammed or bottleneck. So if you look at business the same way, like if you’re so focused on sales and marketing, because that’s what brings in the money, that’s what everyone loves to do, right? That’s one of the main goals.

    More profit, more revenue a higher paycheck for you, your team, or benefits. It all revolves around money, but yet if you’re so focused on money and you spend so much money bringing in new clients and customers or whatever it is you need, and you don’t have the support, your op, the operational support to actually handle all of that, it’s only going to backfire and exacerbate and you can’t keep.

    Building the plane as you’re flying it and figure it out. Because if you’re already problematic as a small team, you can never out hire or out earn bad operations. It’s only going to exacerbate and be multiplied. So this is where operational education comes in. Like I am learning that people don’t pay attention to operations.

    ’cause it’s almost like there’s this stereotype of either you should already know it or it’s so boring, you just, it’s not even helpful. And so to go back to the analogy of the neck and the referral pain it’s the same concept. Say you get a new client or customer and then your onboarding experience isn’t as great.

    Whether you’re selling a product or selling a service, it doesn’t matter, right? It’s their first interaction with you after they’ve given you money. High stakes. And if your onboarding experience isn’t good. That’s gonna refer pain elsewhere in your business because it means that not only were you inefficient and losing money, the experience wasn’t good.

    And so then if the experience is not good, the likelihood of your new client or customer singing you praises to their friends, their colleagues, their family, doesn’t matter, will diminish. And so it all is this ripple effect because one area of your business was kinked, but then it often plays into multiple areas because your operations touches everything.

    That’s literally what operations means. Like when you hear phrases like marketing operations or people operations or revenue operations, there’s a lot of words. And then the word operations after it, the word that the operations is tied to is really about the what, right? People or marketing. Revenue operations.

    If revenue is the topic, operations is what makes the desire the strategy. The what on the revenue side come to life. So you need both. Everything is operations. ’cause operations is the how. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes so much sense. And do you find sometimes that people don’t realize how much money they’re losing through inefficiency?

    They just it’s not easy to quantify. 

    Veronica Yanhs: We can quantify it. Yeah. It’s, can I share a study? 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes, please. 

    Veronica Yanhs: Okay. So the Project Management Institute, this is the PMI for short. In 2018, they ran a study on, I think it’s been a while since I looked at this. I think Fortune 1000 companies. So they’re pretty big.

    Right. 1000 largest companies in the United States, they found that about 30% on average of the businesses’ top line revenue, so basically just pure money that they get paid was being lost due to inefficient operations. 30%. That’s no small chunk of change. And for organizations as large as these, in a way it feels okay because they have a lot of people, they have a lot of money, which means they have a lot of grace.

    Now, on the flip side, and this is why we like to come in as soon as we can to any business or nonprofit, is we’ve seen the numbers, like we go into our clients’ backend all the time. That includes like their QuickBooks and all that stuff. We’ve seen that that number is closer to 50% for a small business, and you work so hard.

    To make money every year, whether it is to make more money or to keep the profits or whatever it is, it’s always money related, right? Your top three goals are often more revenue, more profits, more benefits, or something that re relates to more money, and yet, automatically 50% of that gets lost. And the reason why it’s 50% is because smaller businesses naturally have fewer people.

    So that means that those fewer people are wearing many more hats and have more irons, like multiple irons and multiple fires, which means the chances of dropping balls increases. And because you have fewer people doing more things, there’s less grace. So your mistakes or the inefficiencies cost more because of that.

    And I can go into more details, but generally that’s the examples. Like you’re wearing more hats of more irons and more fires and less grace because you have less people. Fewer people. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: That makes so much sense. And do y’all also find sometimes there are unrecognized sunk costs that add up, but we don’t realize it.

    Every subscription at $15 a month doesn’t feel like that much until you have like 200 and then suddenly it’s thousands of dollars. And, but we don’t always recognize them because payments are automatic or they don’t hit the radar or there’s not a renewal notice. Or what are some other places where you find that people are losing money that they’re not recognizing and it’s not that important for the business, that things could be streamlined and they could still run the business well and keep the same amount of revenue or more?

    Veronica Yanhs: That’s a great question and I’m going to give my two favorite examples. So I don’t know if it falls exactly in the, that it’s like a small thing, like yes. Subscription parts. Like honestly, when we go do operations audits for our clients, it’s so much, easier to save money than it is to make money.

    So finding places where costs can be cut without it changing how an organization is run is always a great thing. So my two favorite examples when it comes to losing money that you may not even be thinking about is I have yet to meet a client. And we’ve been doing this a long time. Hundreds of operations audits, like we’ve spoken to thousands of employees, staff members, contractors, like the data we have, the data.

    I have yet to ever meet a client that is truly ready to bring on a new employee. Whether they be a W2 or a contractor in a way that benefits everybody. And when I say this, if you don’t have good operations and you don’t know how your business is run or you do and it’s all in your head, which is just as bad, bringing on a new hire takes time.

    It takes time to write the job descriptions. It takes times to interview them, to vet them, to onboard them, right? So you’re already spending time finding talent. And if you have bad operations, retaining talent is just as hard. They’re here with the best of intentions to do a really good job, but yet they’re doing this with one hand tied behind their back because they are being thrown in trial by fire.

    You learn by doing, right? Sometimes people think, oh, that’s such a good thing, and I’m like, no, that’s just a dumb excuse because you don’t think about your operations. Imagine if you were a new hire, which I’ve been before, where they just gave me a giant book and said, good luck. Because they didn’t have a good process for bringing somebody on.

    So not only am I being set up to fail as a new hire, more times than not the person that’s doing the hiring, ’cause maybe, oh, you’re delegating work. It could be your first hire, it could be your second hire, it could be your 20th hire. It doesn’t matter. You’re now playing glorified babysitter, and if not you, then somebody else on your team is then having to do that emotional labor because there are no standardized practices, processes, documentations.

    And so it is a huge loss there. So money is being wasted without even thinking about it, because if you’re not efficient with your time, or you spend all this money to bring on a new hire, but they can. Do their job for a month or two because you don’t have the things you need to give them or be ready, you know what I mean?

    That’s a really subtle, and sometimes not so subtle way businesses or nonprofits are losing money. And then the other one that I wanna share is my favorite one to talk about because, and I alluded to it earlier, it’s because we don’t, because when you think about a business or an organization, and you think about it from a sales or marketing driven standpoint, instead of being process driven, things like this happen.

    I’ve spoken with so many clients who tell me that they need to focus on sales, marketing, and branding because that’s what brings in the money. We’ve had clients tell us, or leads tell us that they’re either too small for operations or, again, I am spending most of my budget this year to scale my business because I need more clients, more money, all that good stuff.

    So they spend. Good chunk of change, like five figures. Like it’s not uncommon to spend 10 plus thousand if you’re a small business owner on sales and marketing help, right? Because if the more, if you hire someone to bring you leads, then you can sign on more clients and all that good stuff. So on the surface level it feels really great.

    But imagine what happens if you don’t have good operations, don’t have good onboarding, and you hire somebody to launch a marketing campaign, social media campaign, Facebook ads, it doesn’t podcast tour, it doesn’t matter. And then suddenly an influx of customers and clients want to buy your products and or services.

    If you don’t have the systems to be able to handle that type of demand and growth, you essentially just paid money for somebody to light it on fire. Yes. They brought you all the leads and all the. The clients and customers, but if you can’t serve them well, it doesn’t matter if you then say we’ll do whatever it takes to make sure they’re served well.

    But you know, then who suffers is you and your team bending over backwards, being stressed out, burnt out, moving forward at any given cost. Sure you can do that for a short amount of time, like if you have a launch campaign coming up, right? But imagine doing that on the daily operations then just really does influence your company culture, your internal branding as I like to call it.

    Are you treating your people well or are you making them work at breakneck speeds for no gain? So what I’ve seen personally, and we see this over and over, and so that’s why I’m done convincing people and trying to. Tell ’em that they need operations first. I can use that as a sense of like awareness shift.

    But if I have to beg them and convince them somebody else can have that more noble of a job, I am done with it. I’ve had people tell me that they spent over $50,000 to bring new leads to their service-based agency. And what was really ironic was that they only had the capacity to onboard two to three new clients at one time, and they had about 18 really good and qualified leads.

    They had no waiting queue. They had no CRM, they had nothing to capture those leads really well. And because they were also inefficient about delivering their work it, the timeline took forever to be done with those first three clients. By the time they went back to those 15 other client or leads.

    Everyone else was like, no, thank you. I already am wanting to work with other people. I can wait six more months because I needed this within two months or something. So $50,000 was spent, and all they could do was bring on two clients or three clients and onboard them because you see where I’m going with this.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Absolutely. And that sounds so painful. And yet we’ve seen the excitement of being able to bring on new and volumes of business without having anticipated what capacity is needed ahead of time to catch that. And if people have to wait for something that they thought would be immediately available to them, not only do they not work with the company, but they’re probably not gonna take a second look down their line.

    Either they’re, they’ll find something else that’s, 

    Veronica Yanhs: yeah. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And do you see this? Often or frequently is this a trend that you see in your work 

    Veronica Yanhs: that operations are being thought of as an afterthought or that we’re 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: using Yes. Or that There’s been so much marketing that they’re bringing in too much business and don’t have the capacity is, yeah.

    Veronica Yanhs: Is that common 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: thing 

    Veronica Yanhs: so common, which is why I’m on this journey to educate people. This is the awareness shift as to why not only is operations important, but doing it in the orgasmic operations method way is the difference between operations that is important and operations that’s important and sustainable and attractive because you can have good operations, right?

    Quote unquote. You can have operations in your organization, but imagine if the systems are so dysfunctional or disjointed, say your project management. Project management’s one of the first few systems that we look at because it’s how everybody is able to do work in a really efficient manner. During the Olympics, when they do the baton passing and it’s so smooth, right?

    When one team’s done or one person’s done, then they pass on to the next person. If you don’t have good operations for project management, I just imagine it’s like you’re all in a rowboat. Everybody has an a, an or, and you’re just spinning in, like you’re just, everybody’s rowing and paddling and you’re just like spinning in circles or basically going nowhere.

    So we’ve seen things where organizations will have a project management software or system that they use, but then every single team member does their own thing. Like they don’t even use the software. Maybe one person does, and everyone else is like, oh, I put it on my own calendar, or I signed up for my own app, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    I feel for the project manager, the conductor, the one who’s supposed to be orchestrating this multi-team campaign. And some of these people are outside the organization because they’ve contracted with say, like a podcasting company or what have you, and it becomes even more dysfunctional. So that’s why orgasmic operations is important because before we do any work, we have to go in and talk to people and understand who they are as people to begin with.

    What are their zones of geniuses? What is important to them? How do their brains think? What makes them tick in a good way and in a bad way? How did they work? And so from there we get really curious and our curiosity thanks to, my product design training allows us to come up with solutions that really are not about us.

    Yes, we have our expertise, but we honor our. Clients and their team members’ needs by coming up with solutions that actually matter to them so that they will stick to the systems, use it and actually enact change in a rather quicker way. ’cause there’s good operations and specifically this project management example.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And what are the possibilities with, I love this, the orgasmic operations method and what does it do? And it also begs the question, and I apologize, but it just flows. Does size matter? Are you working with small companies up to corporations? Will the method work regardless?

    Veronica Yanhs: Thank you for asking. And this is such, yes. Size does matter. Size does matter because the more people you have involved, the more you have to consider. And the way that we love to start is. That’s why we asked to come in as soon as possible because the fewer the amount of people involved, the easier it is.

    We, we can get the information that we need to do our jobs. We’ve been brought in when someone was a solopreneur, we’ve been brought in, when there is a company of five, like a startup, we’ve been brought in where there is a company of 50, it doesn’t matter. We do our jobs because at the end of the day, we have found ways to make sure that the people that need to be heard are heard to people that are responsible for running a certain system or process, have their needs met so that they can do their job well.

    Because when we see companies that are more mature, even the young ones, and when I say young, like even say a year or two. Someone will come in, they’ll hire somebody, someone will come and put in A system. So I’ll just keep using project management. They’ll sign up for say Asana or something.

    It doesn’t matter. It’s because that’s what that person knows and they just threw something together. And then when they leave, it’s the next person is either forced to use that one, or they have to develop a dedicate brain space to actually create a solution that matters.

    So then that, that dysfunction, the Franken systems, the duct tape systems just gets worse and worse and worse and worse. So that’s where we come in and actually do it right the first time. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And how long do you typically work with a company? 

    Veronica Yanhs: This is a great question. We would like to work with our clients as long as possible because we’re the type of businesses that love friendships and relationships.

    Like I would rather work with somebody for 10 years because that means that I’ve just established a rapport friendship, like I wanna be invited to their Thanksgiving dinner and vice versa kind of thing. But for. For a company that we were just starting out with, we always do an operations audit to start with because we wanna know what’s going well, what’s not going well, what are the pillars that we look at in terms of where operational efficiency inevitably breaks down.

    And it usually comes down to main, these four main domains. It’s continuity, it’s knowledge transfer, it’s its capacity or its priorities and understanding what that looks like. And so the breakdown often happens between, in those four domains somewhere. So when we do the operations audit, and that includes interviewing key team members and leadership to even doing a tech stack audit to see are you using the software that you’re supposed to be using

    well, and because everything is in the internet age now, we often use software as a gauge to see how their systems are translating. From strategy to actualization. So software may be just the tip of the iceberg, but it’s supposed to then actualize the plan, right? So for us, when we do the ops audit, when we interview and then we audit where the domains are not doing well versus doing well, we end up with an action plan at the end of the day.

    And this action plan is often measured against a North star. Like when we call it purpose, is every single system pointed towards that North star? And if not, it’s superfluous. It’s a waste. So if your North Star is about healing racial trauma, which is one of our clients center for healing racial trauma, and the systems don’t funnel people towards that end goal or result or actively help the people we’re they’re trying to help, then that means that we need to reevaluate a lot of things.

    And so for us. It takes about a month to do that audit and then afterwards, based on what the clients need we either go in and do the change for them. We mentor their, or we mentor their operations team members, or we sit as advisory roles if there’s like an ops team and they want us to be more hands off because it’s a learning moment.

    So it very much varies. For us, depending on what it is our clients need, because operations is so unique to every organization. So while we have certain ways in which we work with clients, at the end of the day it’s pretty bespoke. Even though we have productized in a way, our offers and standardized so that we don’t have to start from scratch every time.

    So to answer your question in a very long-winded way, it starts out with a month because that’s how long the operations audit takes. Okay. And then depending there, we step in from anywhere, from advisors to fractional COOs. So our engagements go from say, three to six months to one year and beyond, depending on what it is that our clients want us to do.

    And the reason why we are not in a rush, not to say that we can’t do things fast, we actually do things so much faster than our clients are prepared for. It’s because what people don’t account for is that operations takes time, meaning. We can implement the solution in a day or two. That’s easy for us.

    But it requires people, whether it be clients, customers, or even team members to actually go through the system and get the data to see, oh, is this hypothesis? Is this prototype that business lab bear just put out good? Or if not, where do we need to change things? So it takes time to use and refine.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, 

    Veronica Yanhs: and that’s what people miss out on a lot. They think it’s an overnight like, oh, just write me like 25 Instagram captions for my marketing campaign. It’s not like that. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: And list out back to your original join in intention for changing your whole course of life and wanting to help businesses as a, who are wanting to be a force for good non-profit or for-profit.

    And there are differences between non-profit and for-profit offer operationally, but. What does it feel like to see when they are working with you and their operations have been worked over and enhanced enough that they see the profitability has gone up and that is able to translate into what it they wanted to do in the first place, which is give more, pay more to employees, helps the environment more.

    Whatever those mission, vision values might be, and to actually make them tangible. But 

    Veronica Yanhs: it’s such, what is that? Like just feeling of satisfaction, like it’s like that after it’s like that glow of, so we go back. So I’ve been pretty, because we’ve, the questions that you’ve been asking have been really great.

    Like our branding because it’s Sex and king positive, there’s a lot of like fun innuendos and stuff, and I’m like, it feels like the post cotus afterglow. Where you do all this work and then you’re just sitting there and you’re like, oh my gosh, that was so great. You are actually seeing team members happy.

    Staff members are happy. So when we talk about measuring data as well, we both do qualitative and quantitative data measurement because sometimes it’s hard to quantify the feel good feelings or the feel bad feelings. So to see our mission statement come to life because the organization is able to sustain this change and do the work that they want to do in a way that honors the people, the CEO, the executive director, the staff members, the employees, the community that they’re affecting their ideal clients and everybody’s happy because a good customer experience also matters, right?

    Because that matters for long-term, like lifetime value or referrals. It all, it brings me so much joy and satisfaction because to really be this paradigm shift of taking something that’s so historically bland and dry and formulaic and rigid and robotic, and turn it into something that’s infused with humanity, with core values, with grace, and to see the positive change that’s coming from that for me as a founder and an entrepreneur, and I guess this is a new one for me.

    People are calling me a thought leader and it, I don’t know how I feel about that at this point, but to be able to enact this positive change is something that I never envisioned would be so much bigger than what I started my business out to be. It’s a really indescribable feeling that I get to wake up every day and know that my business is doing good operations for good.

    Is not something I came up with right away. It’s something that took time and I guess it was just the next level progression after feeling good for people because pleasurable operations, while it’s still, orgasmic operations and pleasurable operations is still how we do things different.

    What brings people to our door is about helping them build operations that power the world changing work they’re here to make. And then when they say okay, how, that’s, when we talk about the orgasmic operations method and how we’re different and so we are shifting the paradigm and how work is being looked at in an operation in an organization at a really systemic level.

    And it’s not just about bandaid solutions. And I’m really proud to be doing this work and being able to champion this work and I can’t wait to do it more and more as the future goes on. ’cause I have some pretty big plans. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Ooh. And also it sounds like foundations for some really strong and long-term relationships.

    And what do you see as the possibilities through your work and what makes you optimistic? 

    Veronica Yanhs: What makes me optimistic is that despite how much and how problematic our world may be like, we didn’t even, there’s so many social and political issues that are happening at this time of recording. Like today is the first of the new year according to the lunar calendar, right?

    So happy New Year’s to you. Year of the fire horse means lots of momentum and lots of change. After the previous year of the snake, which I was born in the year of the snake. So it was all about shedding what doesn’t serve you. And so that was very poetic for me. I’m very optimistic in what humanity is possible in able to create, like what’s possible when we center humanity.

    There’s so much hate, there’s so much malice. And as someone who is a person of color, that does sometimes feel like, I feel like I’m tinfoil hatting in a way because I’m like, oh, maybe my issues aren’t that important, or it’s not that big compared to what’s happening on the global scale. But it does matter ’cause we’re all part of this collective humanity.

    And I guess I’m just being, I’m just surrounded by people that are my allies and support me wholeheartedly as a person of color, as an entrepreneur, as someone who is bisexual and openly out in my personal life and in my professional life. I guess the word that I, that comes to mind is optimism because the people that I’m surrounding myself with have that.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. 

    Veronica Yanhs: While we’re also realistic and it’s like we’re actually not just talking and it’s not just lip service and we’re doing the work in our own way. And like I said at the very beginning. I’m only one person and it feels so overwhelming and it feels so like why bother? I’m just one person. But then when you can surround yourself with people, your community allies it grows, and more and more people can support you, your mission, each other.

    And so yeah, I think the word is optimism for me in terms of what I see. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so awesome. What more would you like to share and how can people reach you? 

    Veronica Yanhs: In terms of what I would like to share, I am here to reach as many people that resonate with my message as much as possible. Yes, I am one of many people that does operations, but the flavor in which I do it is very fun.

    Very entertaining and you either love me or you run away from me. My branding is very polarizing. There’s no fence sitting ’cause I imagine it’s very very painful. So what I would love is to connect with you, if you resonated with this podcast episode, I will give Kim my LinkedIn and other social handles so that we can connect like one-on-one Connections is something that I love.

    Yes, the internet is here, but connecting one-on-one even through an internet platform is still something that I value. And so you can find me in all of my information at businesslaidbare.com, and I’m sure that’ll be linked in the show notes as well. There’s 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: yes, 

    Veronica Yanhs: free content, there’s paid content, there’s ways in which we can work together.

    I’m launching a podcast in June called Operations for Good. It is very much an exciting time. And yes, there’s a book that’s been in the work, so there’s so much happening. But most importantly, all of this wouldn’t matter if there were not clients and allies and ambassadors that supported the work that we do.

    ’cause it’s about people. It’s not about me. It’s about the people that we’re here and what this brand is here to serve with our mission statement of operations, the power world changing work. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I love that. And I believe that meeting people and building relationships is so important because someone said that business and relationships that are healthy and running well is a form of resistance.

    It’s also a form of advocacy. And one of my taglines is I’m a mighty advocate. I’d love to advocate for, and when I heard you speak and then we chatted afterwards and I invited you to this podcast, I felt it was so critically important because I understand a lot about business, but there’s certain niches of business that I don’t have strong expertise in.

    And I wanna be the best business coach, supporter advocate as possible. And part of that is connecting more relationships and catalyzing relationships. And I think you do wonderful things for business, and I know I do as well. And they’re not the same things. And to understand that can do what we all really wanna do, which is help businesses be strong, be contributors, because that helps community, and community helps a local economy.

    That helps people support their families and bigger small businesses matter, and they really are a form of resistance. 

    Veronica Yanhs: I couldn’t have said it any better and apparently just by being who I am, so again, I did not start my business to be this person. I’m being asked to step into some role model slash leadership title that I don’t sometimes feel comfortable with.

    I’m like, you wanna hear what I have to say? You want my opinion? I started my business to do better, to do good, to do more good, and to be this person who is, like I said, outwardly, bisexual, kinky, open, all that stuff. Running a business that’s talking about pleasure. Apparently that’s already a paradigm shift and is radical.

    In and of itself, like I am a walking paradigm shift because then I’m, as a woman of color, as someone who’s Chinese is, it’s not, you don’t see that a lot. And so I just, I am very fortunate to be able to be in this position of being able to be completely out, to be able to honor who I am, that allows me to look at myself in the mirror every day to know that I am making the most out of this life and what I wanna do.

    And it’s for good. 

    Kim Allchurch Flick: Indeed. And a lot of people are saying, oh, wow. It’s okay to say things like that about ourselves. That’s a big step forward too. I’d love to hear about the, your answer to this last question is if you could have dinner with up to three people who are living or deceased, who would they be and why?

    Veronica Yanhs: The first thing that came to mind is I would love to have dinner with my grandfather. He passed away when I was a freshman in college. And so knowing what I know now, I think it would be such a wonderful way to be able to connect back to my ancestry and my heritage. And so this question when there’s so many celebrities and stuff I could think of, but it’s I guess I’m in the state of understanding, Hey, where did my family come from?

    What is it that we’ve had to endure? What’s, while I have my origin story yes, English was actually my fourth language. I was born here, but they didn’t want me to learn English because they knew through, just by being born here, it was gonna be easy. So it’s like forcing me to learn my three, some, three and a half native languages before English.

    Things like this allows me to connect back to my heritage and to just know Hey, how did we get here? Why what was life like? Back in Asia and everything. And so I bring this up because even to this day, even though my family has been here since the 1980s, it is a very hard topic to talk about.

    There’s a lot of deep seated trauma that they are just not ready to even or I don’t think they ever will be ready to address. And so I have to honor that because this is where I’m very Americanized and therapy is something that is going to be lifelong for me. So my therapist has e eternal job security.

    Yeah. It just goes back to wanting to have dinner with my grandfather and perhaps his father to just talk about like where we came from and why we believe what we believe as a family and what’s, what was the driving factor that like shapes how he parented and ’cause that then, trickled down to me and who I am today.

    Kim Allchurch Flick: I think that’s so lovely. You’re a delight. I’m so glad that we met, even though the relationship is young and new, but we support so many interesting businesses, and I see that community is being strong and also we come from such wildly different backgrounds and I see so many ways to collaborate and help each other and help others.

    So I expands my worldview and I’m always grateful for that. And it is February, 2026. It is the first day of the year of the fire horse that I think makes a lot of difference in how we move forward. And I’m not quite sure how, but I also feel optimistic somehow because of that. Everything is in the show notes.

    Veronica, thank you for your time. Listeners, thank you for your time. And this is Kim Al Church flick with the True podcast signing off and be safe out there. We’ll see you soon. 

    This Episode’s Guest: Veronica Yanhs

    Veronica Yanhs is sitting in a chair, twirling her hair, smiling with red lipstick and a t-shirt that says "glass dildos not ceilings."

    From spreadsheets to the bedsheets, Veronica Yanhs brings her whole unapologetic self to business. She’s the founder of Business Laid Bare and the creator of the Orgasmic Operations® Method, where she helps mission-driven businesses and nonprofits design people-first operations that power the world-changing work they’re here to make.

    Through her work, Veronica and her team build systems that feel good to use, run with integrity, and replace duct-taped backends with operations that can actually support big missions—so leaders can stop being the bottleneck and focus on building the world they want to live in.