Embodying B Corp Certification: The Next Economy, Financial Gravity, and Mission-Locked Business with Ryan Honeyman of Lift Economy

Kim Allchurch Flick: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Mighty Measure Podcast. This is Kim Allchurch Flick and I am so excited today to be with Ryan Honeyman. Ryan Honeyman is a partner and worker owner at Lift Economy and co-author of the B Corp Handbook. The next economy, MBA, both published by Barra Kohler. For more than 15 years, Ryan has helped over a hundred companies, including Patagonia, Allbirds, Ben and Jerry’s, and Thrive Market become B, certified B Corporations, and Recertify under evolving standards and use certification as a catalyst for deeper organizational change.

In recent years, his work has expanded beyond standards and strategy into leadership, embodiment, and culture. Ryan works in long-term advisory and coaching relationships with founders, CEOs and leadership teams to address the gap between stated values and lived behavior, helping leaders build organizations where governance, decision making and culture actually reflect their social and environmental commitments.

Today we’re gonna talk about embodying B Corps certification. Rain. Welcome. It is a joy to have you here in the room. 

Ryan Honeyman: Thanks so much for having me. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. So we’ve known each other through B Corp for a few years, but never met until last week at the Champions Retreat in Wisconsin. That was a delight. It was amazing.

And I learned more than I’ve ever known before, and I feel like I’m pretty up to date with some things. But what did you feel about that event? 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah and thanks, thanks for having me on. I think the. The things that stood out about the Champions Retreat were, a lot of the B Court movement.

I think in the, over the past few years we’ve been feeling a little bit stressed or anxious about the new standards and this, the content of this, champions Retreat was a lot on the new standards and luckily I do feel like people are moving from fear and an anxiety and. Feeling stuck to, okay we’re actually doing this and now let’s move into implementation.

So it was nice to feel a little bit more of the sort of movement towards. Getting the work done and a little less of the stalling out around the new standards, so that, that stood out to me. And similar to you your opening comments I really found a lot of value. I’m reminded of how valuable it is to be in person with folks.

I, I often forget that that is so amazing. And so that was also replenishing for me to be around other humans.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you so much for that. What, before this, what was your life journey and inspirations to this point? 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah, so I started out wanting to reform the criminal justice system.

So I was into psychology and the psychological effects of incarceration. My, one of the professors I had in college was leading the Stanford Prison Experiment for folks who randomly know about that. But anyways I was doing this. Sort of, reforming criminal justice approach. And one of the things I did was work at a, in San Francisco at San Francisco General Hospital, had a mental health unit for emotionally troubled kids.

Folks who were systems impacted. And that was both very. Difficult, very fulfilling. It was like, wow, this is really in the trenches. This isn’t just writing papers, in college or academia is like what? Writing papers on things. This was like one-on-one interventions and when working with the kids, but it was also so incredibly hard that I was like, wow I’m burning out.

This is, it had been I think two years of doing that work and it was really not, it was just so hard. And also I felt like the. Where I was intervening with, kids that were already 13 to 18 had already been through so much trauma that it was feeling like I was catching folks, later in the path.

And so what happened is that my. Brother had studied environmental studies in college and he had some of these early sustainability books. I think things like natural Capitalism, I dunno if you know, readers May, listeners may have heard some of these. Cradle to Cradle, which was a funny book, but it was like made outta plastic and it was all about remaking things and and then, some other books around about Paul Hawkin and I read these books. This is around 2010, and I said, wow, this is pretty cool. I could be, I would much rather do this green thing than what I was doing, before. And so I convinced the. The executive director of this nonprofit I was working at to allow me to be a sustainability person, sustainability manager for a year.

So I was at the nonprofit working, but I was more looking at, lighting and, energy efficiency and water and waste and how to, make sure the kids were getting healthy food, et cetera. And then at the end of that, he the executive director was like, we can’t really keep you as a sustainability person, so what do you wanna do?

And I was like I think I’m gonna just start a solo consulting business to work, with a number of companies around sustainability. And this is pretty early in the B Corp movement. And so as I was starting this solo consulting business by fall of 2010, I had found out about B Corps and was like, oh, this is cool because this is, all this social and environmental things.

In one wrapped up in one thing, was the legal structure, but also the certification. And so I said, instead of sustainability more broadly, what if I just talk to companies about B Corp as a way to, to become more, socially and environmentally conscious and, so I started doing that.

IB lab had just opened an office in San Francisco around I think 2010 or 2011. And I met folks know Andy Fife from B Lab. He’s one of the. He’s back and he was an intern. It was funny we met pretty early and yeah, I started helping companies with B Corp certification and that was the good old days when the Bay Area, we had I think there was 200 B Corp and it was like 20%, I think there was a thousand in the world and there was 20% of all the B Corps were in the Bay Area.

But now that’s those are, those days are over. The other, I think Portland’s probably ahead of us and, and definitely places like the UK are head of the United States now. So yeah, that was the history and how I got into B Corp work. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s fabulous. And I was listening to the dates ’cause B Corp, as we know, Dar B Lab just turned 20 years old.

So you’ve been doing this for 16 years, so you were really on the cutting edge. And I got into it through Portland State University kind of sideways because I’d been laid off and had to find something to do. But my values came with me and that was around 2013 and it felt like there weren’t that many people out there doing what we do.

And now there’s a lot. Yeah. But progress is really amazing. But you’re definitely one of the headliners for the B Corps movement and have always been there. I think to your question, Portland is above a hundred B cores, the state of Oregon. Just slightly above. We’re like getting toward 1 30, 1 40.

I don’t know the exact number, but it is growing and it’s so fun to, to watch and be a sideliner of, as well as doing the work with, so how has the lift economy created and what are the solutions that you’ve been bringing about? 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah, so you know, one of the things that led me to lift economy, so I was a solo practitioner.

From 2010 to 2014 actually till 2016 technically, but I met Kevin Bayou and Sean Berry, my current business partners in 2014 or so. And what I was intrigued by, so they had started Lyft. As a company to redefine success, basically to create an economy that works for the benefit of all life.

And it felt like they were talking about things that the B Court movement wasn’t quite talking about yet. Things like, worker ownership or. Racial equity and, also regenerative agriculture, really getting into like carbon sequestering and how do you manage land in ways that yeah.

Is beneficial for the climate. And so I was like, wow, this is what they’re talking about is are some things that. Pretty far past what my, at the time in 2014, I was, I thought B Corps were like the highest you could go. I was like, wow, this is the top of impact. And there are some B Corps that really live into that.

But also, there’s, the movement has some large, larger companies and large businesses that are not necessarily looking at, permaculture and regenerative ag and worker ownership. And so I was intrigued and I started to work with Kevin. On a few projects where I would do the B Corp side, and then he would help with the vision and culture and strategy around like, how do you change your business to actually be more regenerative or more aligned with all life.

And I said maybe I should just stop being a solo consultant and work with Lyft Economy to be, a team member there so that I can handle the B Corp component of the business and still participate in some of the other pieces. And so one of the things that. Yeah, so Lyft economy more broadly so we do B Corp certification.

We do some of the nuts and bolts consulting for vision, culture, strategy, operations, but we also have some other things that are pretty cool, like the next economy MBA, which is a, an online MBA course that we started in 2018. And we just put it out there as this. Idea of what if people wanna learn business, but they don’t wanna do a traditional MBA and they wanna learn business a different way.

And so we had worked with 300 social enterprises more customized to help them with their business. And so we took some of the learnings from that and some of those permaculture principles and other ideas and put it into this curriculum. And we had 50 people sign up in the first year.

Of this online course, and that was the first cohort. And now we’re actually, we’re just launched cohort 16. And so we’ve had 800 people take the next economy MBA over the last, eight or nine years. And the. Cohort 17 is gonna be launching in the fall. I think that’s September. And yeah, those are some of the different things we do as well as our other podcast, next Economy Now and The Beyond The Be Podcast.

Kim Allchurch Flick: So I’m going to switch my question in order a little bit because it leads me to, you’re getting to know so many people who are going through this program and also working with companies. What are the communities doing in response and what is, what do you see in your community as a growing worldview about these topics that you’re teaching?

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah. I think the cool thing about the MBA is we go into some of the first six sessions are really like, let. Define the problem set and some of the, and some of the solutions. So it’s like really getting clear with folks about why we’re in the situation. We are, like, one of the things we talk about is just we call it the business as usual economy versus the next economy.

So business as usual, we don’t really use capitalism or those things. ’cause there’s, people often have strong views like capitalism is this, or socialism is that. So we just say business as usual versus the next economy. And the business as usual is constant pressure to grow, constant, make money extraction at all costs.

It’s the sort of standard operating model for business that we all know about in the B Corp world, in this impact world. And what we do is take folks through, like here’s some of the basic principles of what’s happening and then what are some next economy principles that could help you change your company.

So things like defaulting to open source, something that we don’t really do in the B Corp world, which is kind of cool. Like I feel like it could be more open source. Components of things we do. Definitely shared ownership democratizing governance not just ownership, but also how do you run the company and how do you create organizations that are, vibrant and can operate more on a flat model.

And, talk about regenerative operations. Talk about deliberately developmental. So it’s like how are you developing people? And we go through all these components and then set people up for then. Okay, let’s now go through specifically how do you do marketing from a next economy lens?

How do you do sales? How do you do culture? How do you do, all of these things? And it’s been great ’cause there’s been a lot of B Corps who’ve come through. A lot of B Lab staff actually have taken the course and I think the way that people are responding in their communities is to say.

Hey I’m either starting a new business and I want to integrate some of these principles or ideas from the start, or I’m within an existing company. There’s also folks who work at B Corps, maybe even large B Corps, who are like, I’m not gonna start something, but how do I bring some of these principles within my organization?

And, yeah, people are doing different things. It’s just depends on what their role is, but it’s it’s been a vibrant community and people are building towards something that goes beyond even what B Corp can offer. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yes. Thank you. This is so inspiring. And what, along the way and currently are some obstacles and challenges?

Ryan Honeyman: Yes. Some of the obstacles and challenges and know I can go in a little bit too. One of the things that I have learned recently is there’s a author named Eric Rees who wrote the book, the Lean Startup many years ago in 2011, and he became very famous for that because he was all, the basic theory was like, how do you create the minimum at MVP, which is a minimum viable product, which is basically tried something, test it, and then iterate instead of doing a lot of work to create these fully fleshed out things.

He’s been. He started something called the Long-Term Stock Exchange, which is also a, for publicly traded companies who want to go public but associate their their going public with long-term investors. And so they’ve got a couple companies, I think thread up is one and Asana, and there’s another one.

So it’s in the earlier stages. But the reason I mention Eric is one of the main barriers. For a lot of us in the mission-driven world is what he calls Financial Gravity, which is like the business as usual idea that we talk about, but financial Gravity is just that. Ultimately everything comes down to how are you going to, how.

Make money and protect against the pressures of, what it means to run a business which is usually to maximize shareholder value. And so he talks about benefit corporations in there, but he also talks about some of the things that benefit corporations are one aspect of this.

Sort of, he calls it like creating armor for your company. Like benefit corporations are one thing, but you can also do things with the board of directors where you have your board take an oath to like always uphold the mission, which is pretty important. You can also create. He calls it spiritual holding companies, which is like a nonprofit, which owns a a for-profit entity.

There’s also purpose trust, like Patagonia with their purpose trust. I think Tony Choon also has a trust ownership structure. So the, I think some of the barriers to this expansion of the B Court movement or the next economy has been just, the financial gravity of always feeling pressure to do more with money.

And so what he’s been able to do is to create this, his book is called Incorruptible that’s coming out and it’s basically how do you structure your company not just as a benefit corporation, but other unique models that will really mission lock your company for the long time and help us better prevent.

Things like what happened to, to Allbirds or others who were, Allbirds was a benefit corporation and a certified B Corp, but they still felt that pressure to expand and grow and they weren’t even, they were never actually profitable and it led partially to their unraveling of their company and like an AI company now, which is crazy.

Yeah, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of barriers and I think the Eric’s book, incorruptible is a great resource for folks 

Kim Allchurch Flick: and in a timely fashion. As we’re recording this in spring of 2026, I just saw your newsletter come out this morning with that book mentioned, so we’ll put that in the show notes too.

It’s great that people are thinking along those lines in a pragmatic fashion. The what? Businesses, but not the old ways where it used to be the corporate world that I came from, where you live and die by your quarterly numbers and. The stress level is just beyond, but it’s all for the stakeholders and it’s like, what have you done for me lately?

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: And so I’d love the way you’re talking about that. I’m gonna get the book Incorruptible and I’ve read your books as well. Also wanna mention to the audience that the B Corps handbook is going into version three, so keep our eyes out for that. Really, really interesting topics. All of this what makes you optimistic?

Ryan Honeyman: I think going to something like the Champions Retreat and just. Getting that sort of feel like the live contact with other people and the sort of inspiration from being around other B Corps. That’s, that makes me optimistic. I’ve got a, an 11-year-old and an eight 11-year-old daughter and an 8-year-old son who are like very cute and.

Joyful, but also pushing my daughter’s pushing into tween zone, she’s still, she’s very sweet and so I just, I’m optimistic because I see it’s just so fun to be with them and to parent them and things like that. And this is kind of a weird way to go, but I will say that maybe 12 to 24 months ago I was.

Much more pessimistic about all the AI stuff. With I, I still know that it’s like using a ton of energy and it’s, potentially changing a lot of things for the worse. And at the same time, like I just am. I feel like I’m more, it’s more like it’s here. And I think maybe a year or two ago it was like, wait, we should stop it.

And slow down and things like that. But now it’s just it’s here. And then, so how are we working with it and using it in ways that are actually beneficial to folks? And creating, creating an economy that works for all. My, my business owner, my business partner Kevin, talks about, with ai you need to pair it with inclusive ownership. The example he uses was in the seventies when, Ford Motor Company would come in with robots and say, we’re gonna lay off, 5,000 employees because we’re gonna have robots build the cars.

If you are just an employee of Ford Motor Company, you’re like, this is terrible. You’re gonna fight it as hard as you can. You’re gonna push back. If you’re a co-owner of Ford Motor Company, like if there was broad based ownership of Ford or something and you’re, the robots came in, you’re like. I’m an owner of Ford, and so the profits and benefits of these robots coming in is actually gonna make my work easier.

Like I don’t have to, it’s not as unsafe as maybe it was and blah, blah, blah. And so that changes the dynamic of technology advancing because you’re participating in the upside. And so Kevin’s thing with AI is like, how do we make sure that the. The, there’s more broad based ownership of AI models and the sort of profits that come because then the sort of wealth creation and benefits go to the people.

All people as opposed to it being a, just more financial gravity and shareholder primacy and going to these super rich billionaires. So that, that makes me optimistic too, about that possibility. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: It’s interesting you brought that up because a AI is still something I find hard to define.

Because of so many things. I use it a little bit to help correct my grammar. That’s way different than flying airplanes and a lot of other things that it does. But I love how you phrased that. And also anytime there’s change and people worry about losing jobs, you mentioned the robots. I said, yeah, but somebody’s gotta build the robots.

So that’s creating jobs. So there, there also seems to be that along the way and we. Now we have more and more B Corps. So also looking for who are those innovators that are doing some really amazing things with good values. And I think that’s why I find optimism is in the innovators. And there’s one I’d love to support.

It’s called Virtue Lab. That’s mostly Cleantech. Not every company’s gonna make it from the get go, particularly when they’re. Inventing something that has to have prototypes. It takes a lot of money and research. Often it cannot prove out, so some companies never get off the ground. But the ones that do can do some amazing things, and maybe AI is helping them go faster.

I think AI can help medical research be clearer and go faster. So there’s so many possibilities, but I’ve gotta admit, I can’t understand. That the two little letters that are bigger than me. Yeah. And then there’s the energy concerns as well that come up with that. But I’m glad you brought it up because this is real conversation in real time.

It’s talking with you is the other thing that comes to mind is we work in a world where we’re working with businesses and each one of those businesses has a silo or a niche. Or something that they’re very, very focused on. And we get to see a global view of all that. But I love that you brought up really specifics that people are focusing on, like permaculture, regenerative, ag regenerative business, how to do things better for people, employees doing it with equity and not backing away from that.

And I think one of the things I really appreciated right from the get go at Champions retreat was they put equity and current affairs on the table and said, we are here. To talk about it, to do the right things, not shy away from it and stand for our values. And that made me feel really optimistic because it’s the not shying away from it part, nobody tread lightly.

But it wasn’t combative. It wasn’t anything that was anything. But like Michael said, this is about all people. What else would you like to share? What else is on your mind about the world you work in and what you’d like to do?

Ryan Honeyman: I would be curious, maybe we could talk a little more about. What you’re sensing from your, we could talk about the conversations around B Corp, did you find folks, in your conversations, did you find people still feeling overwhelmed by the new standards or were you finding people get grasping it a little more?

What? What did you see from your conversations at the Champion retreat? 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I think it’s twofold. One is people who haven’t looked at them yet still have trepidation. And the other discussions I’ve had with the organization that I’m in, in Oregon, the on purpose Oregon, which used to be local PDX.

Also talking about how it almost seems like the companies that have recently recertified or certified and still have some time are postponing. So there’s that gap too. I, what I did is, as you did, worked with B Lab along the way. So the last two years have been aware enough. My company just recertified in November and I just jumped right into the new standards.

But I’m plotting along and taking a bit at a time as I do other things in life as well. I’m a visual learner. I really, really like it. I think another thing that I’m seeing that. For me, and this is my world of view about it, is I wanna meet people where they are. And I love B Corps. I’ll always say that.

Not every company wants to become a B Corps, so how can I help other innovations have come along? B Corps is definitely the, the stake in the ground 20 years plus. And yet there’s benefit Corporations for Good, which was created seven years ago, almost eight now, and it’s a lighter version. It’s also more accessible to companies at a lower price point.

And then there’s the purchasing with purpose movement and people in planet first, and somewhere in there there’s something for almost everybody who’s mission driven. The other thing I never forget is Nielsen’s data from, one is from 2014. One’s from 2017, I think, and I’m always paraphrasing, but it’s that globally, 66%.

Of consumers are willing to pay more for products and services when they know a company is sustainable and has good values. So there’s a lot of interpretation in there. The world sustainability can mean a hundred different things to a hundred different people. It’s kind of overused term, but knowing that people are looking.

That gives me optimism. So how can they find us? And all these B cores, that’s to me is the missing link. And it comes with the marketing, the expression, all of that. And then the other study was about millennials. Same kind of questions, but they were in the 73%. And I also believe that as we’re growing and innovating and becoming more prolific as B Corps and mission driven companies, that the price point doesn’t always have to be higher.

That maybe even if they’re willing to pay more. They can also know that they’re gonna pay the same to transition and find a company that has good values. So that’s what I’ve been operating with. And, but also being really realistic. For instance, there’s a couple of companies that really wanted to strive for B Corps.

They’re also consumer products. They also import, and guess what happened? The tariffs went from 15% to 50, and the last thing this business owner can do is become a B Corps. And she’s just struggling to survive right now. So that’s the worldview. I really hope that through this year that more opportunities arise for people instead of fewer and that they find their way.

But I do think the possibilities are endless, and I love seeing that there are people in agriculture. That are getting certifications, like regenerate certifications, and they really know what they’re doing in that realm. And that really gives me optimism too. And there’s people in different sectors who really know what they’re doing in these realms, whether it’s energy environment, but also with equity, with hiring, with treating people well things that they’re doing in community.

So it’s out there. 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. But how do you see it? 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah. Yeah. I think other takeaways for me from the retreat were, it’s funny, one of my strategies. For B Corps retreats is I actually don’t go to that many formal sessions. I just more hang out in the hallways because I I tend to see a lot of people that I wanna talk to.

And, usually at retreats it’s they’re quite heavily scheduled of you have 10 minute break and then you go into this 90 minute session, then there’s an eight minute break, and then you’re, but most of the. People, there are the people I wanna see. And yeah, I just tend to go to the hallways and also pace myself ’cause, it’s also hard to, and I’ll mention it to Karen for the feedback on the retreat, but a lot of the events also had really loud music. They’re like, and it was like hard to have communic to like communicate with folks. But yeah I think that that was a piece that, that stood out was just the sort of, the whole retreat strategy and like how do you get, go and meet the right folks and get the most out of it? For me, my retreat strategy is mostly to go to a couple sessions, but mostly hang out in the hallways just to communicate with folks.

Kim Allchurch Flick: That’s so smart. This is my first Champions retreat and I was all in, and I did find it exhausting at the end. I also noticed the noise level like you did. I met so many new people, but it was also great to see people that I’d been on Zoom with for years and never met in person. So things of that nature I thought were, it was so interesting.

I also made an error. I, because I needed to come home, so I had to leave before the end sessions. I also missed all the. Banter and everything at the end that was coming up in LinkedIn. I’ve seen photos of, and I said, oh, I should have not done that. So lesson learned, but I also go to really specific conferences sometimes, like one was Go Green that I haven’t heard of anymore, but Clean Tech ones that are more focused on a specific type of industry, but still doing it with values and optimism and what I see as the.

Connectivity and how much of that champions retreat like touched on, things like that they touched on. I went to one about water. It was really interesting. Even though it may not affect me directly, the indirect knowledge is still important. So it’s, the thing about general business is we can’t always be too general.

It’s nice to know some really deep specifics and I think Champions Retreat did touch on that as well. Yeah, absolutely. The vendor marketplace was great. It was fun. Yeah, I came home with stuff. Yeah. 

Ryan Honeyman: Awesome. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Is there anything else that you’d like to add? 

Ryan Honeyman: I. Maybe we could I’m happy to jump on the, like the dinner with the three people or like the dinner one question or something.

Or I dunno if you had other questions as well. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: One is, how can people reach you? And I do wanna make sure that people know that in the show notes is your books, that newsletter. Everything. So how would you refer people to reach you? Yeah, 

Ryan Honeyman: yeah. Folks wanna reach out? I definitely would suggest folks check out the Next Economy mba.

That’s at lyft economy.com/mba. The Lyft economy.com site has all of our. Sort of content. I’m probably, I’m most active if folks are on social, on LinkedIn. I’ve removed myself from Twitter whatever the platform is now. And I never made it to the other transition platforms like Mastodon or anything.

And I also never really signed up for Instagram. So LinkedIn is is where folks can go if they want to connect. And. Yeah the other podcasts I mentioned, so Next Economy Now is it’s more of a broad podcast that we’ve been doing now for 10 years at Lyft. And we’ve had. I think 300 people on now.

But it’s things like, climate activists racial and racial justice activists. Also like business leaders. Like we had the, a number of people from Patagonia on there’s one gonna be coming out. With Eric Rees on the, his new book that’s coming out soon. And so it, it ranges the gamut.

And then our Beyond the Be podcast is more B Corp specific. We also like to get into the, so we talk about the new standards and things and developments, but there’s also the bigger juicy questions of one of the recent episodes we did was on the paradox at the heart of the B Court movement with todd Ling and Ante Kim, and if, have you heard of that? The h the Harvard Business Review article that they did? 

Kim Allchurch Flick: No, I haven’t. I’d love to. 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah, so they did a an article called The Paradox of Growing as a Values LED Company and it was a Harvard Business Review article from 2024, and it was about the B Court movement and how the B Court movement has.

Grown but not collapsed like a lot of other social movements. Famously, like there’s been a lot like Social Venture Network, which started and then is like not really as, as strong anymore. I think it’s trying to be revived, it’s a little unclear. There’s like the American Sustainable Business Network, which I think is still going, but also had merge with Social Venture Circle and the Investors Circle and so there’s been a lot of.

Communities that have been shifting. And so their research was on B Corp and they’re trying to say, why has it lasted? And so their paradox was that B Lab has both relaxed the standards or relaxed the sort of. The requirements at times, like for example, to allow in Ben and Jerry’s in 2012, but at the same time it’s tightened the standards.

So for example, if Ben and Jerry’s could get in 2012, but then they also required Ben and Jerry’s and other companies to have, fully transparent, like a hundred percent of their. Their B impact assessment answers are transparent and it, and you have to have a full audit of all of your answers on a much more strict frequency as opposed to the frequency for other B Corps.

You have to have the governance, they have to examine the governance of the sort of subsidiary to make sure it’s truly independent and has their own sustainability management system, et cetera. And so there’s they’ve both relaxed and strengthened, and they called it the paradox.

Another word they use is consistently inconsistent about some of the changes. But it I think it’s a really helpful article and like framework to think about why B Corps have grown and been successful, and at the same time why there’s. Tensions in the movements because, like they, they list organic as something that had a lot of early momentum and then they had a lot of, or some of the fair trade controversy, but then a lot of multinationals came in and took over and it felt like that got co some of those things got co-opted, whereas opposed to the.

The true purity side. They mentioned like the craft beer movement where it’s like you literally cannot be a large brewery in it. So it’s, it only stays small. And they would, were saying that maybe limits the effectiveness of the B Corp movement, if it was like never allow any multinational, like we would probably never.

Reach effectiveness threshold or like a public awareness of how we are. So it’s a really fascinating article and it’s we did an interview that’s coming out on that just came out on beyond the b but I also recommend folks check out the Harvard Business Review article as well.

’cause it. Nerds out on B Corp stuff. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: I’ll do that. And it also makes me think about some of the large B Corps that have chosen not to recertify and what is the definition of social enterprise. Can a B Corp be a P corp and not a social enterprise? And there’s another podcast out there and I was listening to one about an alcohol company.

Tequila is tequila social enterprise. Probably not. Is alcohol’s been around since the dawn of humans almost. And yet how they run the company is another example is a company that I love locally. That is, they do oil changes in auto mechanics. They don’t sell fossil fuel, but they work with cars that use fossil fuel.

Oil is a fossil fuel, and yet they’re a B Corps. And. And he says I can’t stop people from driving, so I might as well help people take care of their car and do it in a way that the other oil change companies don’t. So what are you seeing in as far as that goes? What is a social enterprise?

Can you be a B Corps and not be a social enterprise? And what about these ones that have been B Corp for a while and are choosing not to? Yeah. 

Ryan Honeyman: It’s funny, I. That oil, that car mechanics company, do you know if it’s run by someone named Farhad? Farhad 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Kadi, yes. 

Ryan Honeyman: Okay. So I went to college with him.

Oh, at uc, Santa Cruz. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah. That’s 

Portland. 

Ryan Honeyman: Yeah. Yeah. And now I know, I knew that he had opened up at B Corp auto mechanic. It’s so That’s great. Yeah, tell him hi, if you say, if you talk to him. But yeah I actually, the whole social enterprise thing is interesting to me because. It wasn’t until Aaron Sahan from Donate Economic, formerly of Donate Economics had made some, critical statements of B Corps allowing espresso in that I ever thought that the B Corp movement were not comprised of or composed of social enterprises. Like I thought everyone was just a social enterprise and I, and it was helpful to have some conversations on beyond the b and otherwise with a, to, to have him clarify well look, social enterprise is you’re doing this for the benefit.

Of society and your, probably donating or you’re probably putting a majority of profits back to the mission as opposed to taking them out for shareholders. And so he is like not, not every B Corp you could say is doing it. For the for the benefit of society and the environment, you could argue that something like, I don’t know, maybe Allbirds or others was like more of a profit driven company that had some sustainability components.

But is it a social enterprise? I think they would, Erin would’ve quibbled with it. So it was interesting conversation and I do, that’s one reason I like the people in Planet Firth first certification and Rebecca Dray’s work and Erin’s work as well because as but just for listeners who don’t.

It’s only five requirements and one of them is you have to donate or you have to give a majority of profits or reinvest or give a majority of profits to your purpose. Like you can’t just say you’re a social enterprise and then take like 98% of the money out for shareholders, to enrich shareholders or something.

And that I think is a really great, like litmus test for a lot of companies is what are they doing with the majority of profits that they make. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Yeah, I agree with that. Thanks so much for that. I think it is important to talk about definitions and where definitions can be lacking, so they can mean different things to different people, and yet it can still all be good.

You have words like sustainability, words like impact. They all mean different things to different people. So in conversation I think it helps to discuss it in some ways and say what does it really mean to us or to a person or to a company? And have that be defined? And for me, I find the frustration when I know a company is doing really good things.

The frustration is the lack of expression not strong marketing, not. Making a claim and not having a way to back it up. All of these things. So that’s where I see a lot of work can be done is, and if companies aren’t, they don’t say so. That’s, I think that the verifications are really terrific for helping weed out what might be potential greenwashing and.

Which we’ve been through before in, in recent and long histories. There’s long history of making false claims. So I do think there’s tremendous value in making claims and being able to prove it and have a third party verification. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I’d love to talk to you about the future a little bit.

What Sure. That comes with the optimism. And then let’s go to dinner with your four people. What is there anything in the future. That you wish for or think about might happen? 

Ryan Honeyman: One thing that’s, that is weighing on me a little is you mentioned I’m writing the third edition of the B Corp handbook.

And so that’s probably gonna come out in September, 2027. A little bit TBD, but I think. The, so the, you know what I’m hoping for the future is to write something that’s both, takes into account the things that have happened because I feel like in 2019 when the last edition was written, it’s like a whole new, it’s actually all the racial justice uprising, all COVID, all the anti woke.

Everything has happened since then. So it’s actually interesting to write a new edition, but I think what I’m hopeful for is doing some writing something and. That can be a tool for expanding and growing the movement in a way that takes into account everything that’s happened, but also, helps I think, position the B Corp movement for the next 20 years.

That like some of the founders of B Lab have said. ‘Cause I’ve spoken to a few for this book and they’re like, don’t look backwards in the last 20 years. Let’s look forwards the next, the next 20 years. And I’m like, yeah, that’s true.

There’s a lot of exciting stuff. So I think it’s like balancing those things while staying sort of authentic. And I’m optimistic that B Corps can maybe adopt some more some of these potential like mission lock structures that Eric Rees talks about that we can create more systems change with the new the new B Corps standards being focused on systems change a little more than individual company performance and that.

Fingers crossed, we don’t have any more big negative scandals in the B Corp community. Seems like we’ve gotten out of that pattern a little bit, but, honestly, with with 10,000 companies, Bart Houlahan at the Champions Retreat was saying this is the largest business for good movement in the world now.

And I did ask AI to verify that it’s the UN like global compact for business is larger, but those aren’t verified third party. So I was like, okay, it’s the largest, maybe it’s the largest third party verified of business for good movement. And so yeah, I’m optimistic about what’s possible in the future.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Great. And I think the global B Corps is also growing. Yes, B Corps is around the world that’s faster than 

Ryan Honeyman: us, 

Kim Allchurch Flick: and the purchasing with purpose movement is actually growing more quickly. The US is the slowest growth. It’s growing more quickly and in Africa, Latin America, Asia, Europe. So yes. Thank, thanks so much.

I think we could geek out for a long time, but let’s wrap it up with the dinner question. If you could have dinner with up to three people living or deceased. For a table of four, who would they be and why? 

Ryan Honeyman: Oh, wow. The one person that popped into my mind just, so alive is Yon Scho from Patagonia because he’s such a, he’s such a, a I would, I will say like weird or like eccentric or he’s just so out there that it’s like, who is this guy? And what, what really makes him tick? And I’ve only, I’ve seen some of his talks. I did many years ago in, I think 2014 or something, I did see him speak live and got to meet him at a 1% for the planet event.

He’s not very, he’s not like a gregarious, he doesn’t like open up and just let loose. But I feel like in a dinner table context, he might just say more about, about himself. So that’s definitely one person that, that comes to mind immediately. Another person would probably be.

I think Barack Obama would’ve a lot of interesting things to say about what he sees in the world and what it’s like being president and all the balances, all the things that he’s had to go through. And so that’s someone I’d probably want at the table. And then, yeah, maybe some. I think I’m like searching for more of a historical.

Figure that’s been through some stuff that could maybe put all the, like global unrest, in context. ’cause that, someone who’d been through the civil rights movement, like the easy answer would be like Martin Luther King or something. But maybe it’s maybe or may not, it’s that, but just someone to be like, how are we doing?

And is this, are we like way outside the norm of what we’ve been through in America or the world? Or is this like just. It’s a cycle and, these are the moves that like, keep doing this, keep pushing forward because things will change rapidly and then, suddenly what you’re doing could really break through.

So I think I would be yearning for someone to have that like historical perspective, a little bit of like systems change. 

Kim Allchurch Flick: Oh, that’s so intriguing. Oh, I think having you at that table too would be pretty awesome because you have done a lot of systems change for a lot of people, and it’s been terrific. I really appreciate you being here.

Ryan Honeyman: Thanks so much for having me, Kim.

Kim Allchurch Flick: Thank you. Everyone, thank you for listening. This is Kim Allchurch Flick with the Mighty Measure Podcast. Signing off and wishing you a good day.